Am I the only one panicking about diketones??

[mistike]

Actually from all the most recent studies nicotine is the least harmful of all the ingredients in vape liquid. For instance they are putting nicotine patches on nonsmokers who have Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and age related dementia with wonderful results. Without all the accompanying crap from cigs nicotine is a wonderful drug apparently. Through smoking people have been killing themselves, true, but perhaps extending their quality of life. Ironic isn't it?

I'd be more careful with that. Nicotine has been shown to have benefits when used for depression, Parkinson's, schizophrenia, and a few other things (some people even smoke so they can stay off their meds). BUT it also has some undesirable side effects. Most famous is that increases blood pressure and heart rate, for example. It's also associated with a few diseases, although the relationship is not clear (Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Crohn's disease, some skin diseases...). It's also thought (not sure if it's been proved or not) that it increases risks of blood clots (one of the reasons why doctors do not recommend estrogen birth control to women who smoke, especially after 35 y-o).

At the end of the day, it can be useful, and it can be harmful, just like all other drugs. It may not be the most harmful substance in cigarettes, but it's not exactly harmless either.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

I'd be more careful with that. Nicotine has been shown to have benefits when used for depression, Parkinson's, schizophrenia, and a few other things (some people even smoke so they can stay off their meds). BUT it also has some undesirable side effects. Most famous is that increases blood pressure and heart rate, for example. It's also associated with a few diseases, although the relationship is not clear (Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Crohn's disease, some skin diseases...). It's also thought (not sure if it's been proved or not) that it increases risks of blood clots (one of the reasons why doctors do not recommend estrogen birth control to women who smoke, especially after 35 y-o).

At the end of the day, it can be useful, and it can be harmful, just like all other drugs. It may not be the most harmful substance in cigarettes, but it's not exactly harmless either.

Some of the studies done were with actual cigarettes, not just nicotine. So honestly we have no idea if it's nicotine or the other 2000+ toxins in cigarettes. I'd assume it could be any or a combination of many causing those diseases.

The actual studies I've seen that were done with solely nicotine have shown no more effects than caffeine.

This is where people get confused. Originally some of these posts were about nicotine but it gets intertwined with studies done with cigarettes, which isn't nicotine but a delivery method which happens to house thousands of other toxins. I don't mean you were doing anything bad, just pointing out how easy these studies get confused. A cigarette study is not a nicotine study.

 

[rangerrobin]

So, after realizing that I am absolutely in love with CLS, I decided I should probably have a gander on the interwebs about diketones and their possible hazards. What I read is deeply disturbing. I had never heard anything about them until I started vaping. Obviously the main stories I read were about diacetyl and "popcorn lung". Some really disturbing stuff. But for a second I breathed a sigh of relief knowing I have never vaped diacetyl(although diacetyl is in analogs), and ALMOST no one uses it in ejuice anymore. But then I started reading about acetyl propionyl, and how it is being used as a replacement for diacetyl. Acetyl propionyl is actually a more complex diketone than diacetyl, which mean there is a good chance that it breaks down into diacetyl once in our bodies. I also read on several studies and experiments that have been done with acetyl propionyl, and the results are equally as disturbing as the ones done with diacetyl. In a 2 week inhalation study done on rats, acetyl propionyl caused proliferations of fibrous connective tissue in the walls of the airways. It also cause changes in gene expression in the brain.....some really scary stuff, and as much as I love CLS, I think I personally may have to stop vaping anything that contains diketones.....I started to vaping to potentially clean up my health, and much of what I have read seems that some of these flavorings are worse than cigs. This is a sad day for me knowing I probably wont be ordering anymore CLS, but on the bright side, H1N1 is freaking amazing!!!

I started vaping 4 months ago and all I vape are custard, cream, butter and banana flavors. None have diacetyl, but ALL contain diketones. It does scare me, but I don't like other fruit or tobacco flavors, so I'm not quit sure what to do, except more research.

 

[Jingles]

Hmm-one of my girlfriends just got diagnosed with Crohns. She's been a PAD smoker for 30+ years. she's also smoked the "other stuff" for the same amount of time, almost daily. I've tried to get her to vape, but so far she hasn't converted...

 

[Kent Brooks]

that indeed is the unanswered question!

"FYI- In a flavoring that has less than 1% (.6%) diacetyl/similar, when used at a mere 2% in a juice, we'd be vaping 1200 ppb"

then corrected

"That should read: "we'd be vaping juice that contains 1200 ppb" - but that doesn't mean there'd be 1200ppb in the vapor that we're vaping."

Honestly, I don't really understand the math in any of this stuff, just wanted to point out that symptoms started showing up much sooner than many think

Thanks for righting my oversight. Forgive me, I can't quote the study I read (I've read quite a few - geeky like that I guess)... but I was led to believe that it was a more protracted period of exposure.

Another interesting factoid I picked up, that a single cigarette contains (forgive me if my numbers aren't exact) 200-500ppb of diacetyl. So, if the math is right... and there is a 100% rate of transmission from liquid to vapor form (which we can be virtually assured is not the case - only a small fraction of the nicotine that is contained in the liquid actually translates into nicotine absorbed into the body)... that smoking two cigarettes is at least comparable in terms of risk, as compared to 1ml of eLiquid... and that is only (1) chemical compound out of a 3-4 1000 known chemical compounds in an analog cigarette that give reason for pause.

Again - please read the above as a *layman vaper's poor excuse at math* - vaper speaking here, not a vendor.

 

[Kent Brooks]

I'd be more careful with that. Nicotine has been shown to have benefits when used for depression, Parkinson's, schizophrenia, and a few other things (some people even smoke so they can stay off their meds). BUT it also has some undesirable side effects. Most famous is that increases blood pressure and heart rate, for example. It's also associated with a few diseases, although the relationship is not clear (Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Crohn's disease, some skin diseases...). It's also thought (not sure if it's been proved or not) that it increases risks of blood clots (one of the reasons why doctors do not recommend estrogen birth control to women who smoke, especially after 35 y-o).

At the end of the day, it can be useful, and it can be harmful, just like all other drugs. It may not be the most harmful substance in cigarettes, but it's not exactly harmless either.

As a mental health professional I can say there is significant research for use of nicotine in the treatment and stabilization of schizophrenic symptoms, BUT, I would caution everyone (vapors, vendors, industry pundits) from approaching the boundary between devices that are intended for recreational use (ecigarettes) and devices that are intended to treat or prevent any manner of disorders. That's not a fight we want to pick right now despite the fact that there is research basis for it's therapeutic use.

 

[Kent Brooks]

I started vaping 4 months ago and all I vape are custard, cream, butter and banana flavors. None have diacetyl, but ALL contain diketones. It does scare me, but I don't like other fruit or tobacco flavors, so I'm not quit sure what to do, except more research.

I may have a solution for you soon. Stay frosty.

 

[duroSIG556R]

I think your concern is VALID - we share the same concern.

We actually have a standard disclosure on the website for all the liquids which contain diketones... essentially it's a 'nod' to an elevated risk profile. The truth is - we just don't know what the long-term (longitudinal) effects of vaping are, regardless of what types of flavoring are used. The scariest part about vaping isn't what's known, it's what's UNKNOWN. The mostly likely candidate for potential long-term health issues isn't something we know to look for or avoid, it's something we couldn't have possibly predicted or anticipated.

We're candid and forthcoming about the potential risks - at this point, it's unethical for us to claim that vaping is "healthier than smoking." From a liability stand-point, that's exactly the position we are forced to take... we just don't know? Do we think it *might* be healthier? Who is "we" - and how much healthier? There are LOTS of questions that need to be answered - this industry as a whole is still in its infancy - innovation is outpacing the science to support it, presently.

Ouch. And this is the same sort of verbiage that the fda and antz are using. Surely these statements aren't going to help our cause.

 

[Kent Brooks]

Hmm-one of my girlfriends just got diagnosed with Crohns. She's been a PAD smoker for 30+ years. she's also smoked the "other stuff" for the same amount of time, almost daily. I've tried to get her to vape, but so far she hasn't converted...

Sorry to hear about your g/f Jingles

Crohns is no laughing matter - terrible disorder.

 

[Kent Brooks]

Ouch. And this is the same sort of verbiage that the fda and antz are using. Surely these statements aren't going to help our cause.

I am all for "helping our cause" - but - not at the expense of lying by error of omission. It's the integrity factor. Sad, but it's the state of the union. Really what it is a call for is for us to collectively devote the resources needed to find a path forward that is based in "real science."

 

[Megan Kogijiki Ratchford]

I'd be more careful with that. Nicotine has been shown to have benefits when used for depression, Parkinson's, schizophrenia, and a few other things (some people even smoke so they can stay off their meds). BUT it also has some undesirable side effects. Most famous is that increases blood pressure and heart rate, for example. It's also associated with a few diseases, although the relationship is not clear (Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Crohn's disease, some skin diseases...). It's also thought (not sure if it's been proved or not) that it increases risks of blood clots (one of the reasons why doctors do not recommend estrogen birth control to women who smoke, especially after 35 y-o).

At the end of the day, it can be useful, and it can be harmful, just like all other drugs. It may not be the most harmful substance in cigarettes, but it's not exactly harmless either.

Ah, but here comes the question of how said warnings have been decided upon. Most of these warnings are directed at "smokers" not someone using nicotine without smoking. I asked my GP what she understood from the studies she had come across and she said from what she understood most studies were done with smoking cigarettes not just nicotine and that since nicotine's delivery system most studied (i.e. cigs) has nothing but negative side effects nicotine still carries the taint of that negative association. It has only been recently that studies have been done using only nicotine as a defining drug trial.

I can't speak for everyone but as far as the vapers I've talked with their blood pressure is down as is their heart rate. (Personally I have extremely low blood pressure and heart rate even when I smoked so in that instance genes play a huge factor with me.)

I think this is fascinating and love all the new studies coming out about nicotine by itself and what true benefits and detriments this drug actually has when divorced from smoking...but I'm a science nerd.

 

[Stosh]

Thanks for righting my oversight. Forgive me, I can't quote the study I read (I've read quite a few - geeky like that I guess)... but I was led to believe that it was a more protracted period of exposure.

Another interesting factoid I picked up, that a single cigarette contains (forgive me if my numbers aren't exact) 200-500ppb of diacetyl. So, if the math is right... and there is a 100% rate of transmission from liquid to vapor form (which we can be virtually assured is not the case - only a small fraction of the nicotine that is contained in the liquid actually translates into nicotine absorbed into the body)... that smoking two cigarettes is at least comparable in terms of risk, as compared to 1ml of eLiquid... and that is only (1) chemical compound out of a 3-4 1000 known chemical compounds in an analog cigarette that give reason for pause.

Again - please read the above as a *layman vaper's poor excuse at math* - vaper speaking here, not a vendor.

You're forgiven... But the numbers are off by magnitudes, cigarettes have been found to have ppm, not ppb.

The mean diacetyl concentrations in MS smoke ranged from 250-361 ppm for all tobacco products

From this study.....Concentrations of Diacetyl and 2,3-Pentanedione in Mainstream Cigarette Smoke: A Comparison to Workplace Exposures

 

[jrenae4]

There's another variable - exposure. My doctor said to me once... 2-3 cigarettes a day isn't any worse than the air in LA. Honestly, I believe the guy. It's a question of levels of exposure, and what is acceptable vs. what is unacceptable in terms of levels. There is probably some level of exposure to diketones that they will inevitably determine is sufficiently low enough to minimize the risk of potential health consequences, BUT - there is still no substitute for clean, fresh air. Personally, I will take a bottle of eLiquid chock full of diacetyl over a cigarette, although I can't say with absolute certainty that it's safer. The popcorn workers were exposed to extremely high levels/concentrations of diacetyl, which was in every breath they took for as long as they were inside the plant (8-10 hour days), over a period of decades. I'd speculate that even a rabid vaper who consumes nothing but diacetyl based custard flavoring would consume a fraction of that in a lifetime.

I don't share this "opinion" with you to minimize the risk at all, because the risk is real. However, at present there are no known cases of "popcorn workers lung" in the vaping community - but - I don't expect there would be... after all, there hasn't been sufficient time for that kind of malady to manifest at the present levels of exposure. The only prudent advice I can give in the absence of sufficient research to prove or disprove otherwise is this...

I honestly hope to lose each and every one of you as a customer, someday. Despite the fact that we stand to profit by providing you with an option to traditional analog cigarettes, it's our sincerest hope that one day you lay put your mod down and cast aside all risks associated with inhaling anything except what God and nature intended.

Yeah, well, not in the forseeable future. Sorry

 

[smelly]

Integrity: I don't know if its safe, there's evidence to support it is not only not safe but down right dangerous... meh, I'll sell it anyway.

 

[mistike]

Ah, but here comes the question of how said warnings have been decided upon. Most of these warnings are directed at "smokers" not someone using nicotine without smoking. I asked my GP what she understood from the studies she had come across and she said from what she understood most studies were done with smoking cigarettes not just nicotine and that since nicotine's delivery system most studied (i.e. cigs) has nothing but negative side effects nicotine still carries the taint of that negative association. It has only been recently that studies have been done using only nicotine as a defining drug trial.

I can't speak for everyone but as far as the vapers I've talked with their blood pressure is down as is their heart rate. (Personally I have extremely low blood pressure and heart rate even when I smoked so in that instance genes play a huge factor with me.)

I think this is fascinating and love all the new studies coming out about nicotine by itself and what true benefits and detriments this drug actually has when divorced from smoking...but I'm a science nerd.

I agree. Just like the rest of it, my take on this is, hmmm, not sure. So while it's proved useful for some things, I won't say it's harmless. People tend to translate "less harmful" by "harmless" or "less unhealthy" by "healthy" (and not only about nicotine, they do that all the time about food and it drives me crazy).

The good thing is, now that more and more people stop smoking (vaping or not), studies on nicotine alone are being conducted. I also have low blood pressure (used to faint all the freaking time when I was a teenager lol) and I sure hope nicotine didn't raise it, or I'm going to have problems when I stop taking it lol. My heart rate does increase when I smoke or vape for a few minutes, I don't know how it is, long term, never really tested it.

 

[Towmotor]

I gotta say, I respected Clark from the beginning, but my respect has just increased by leaps and bounds! I don't know of any man who is as honest and honorable! You always have our backs and we will always have yours Clark!

Could not have said that any better.

 

[Solacier]

Ah, but here comes the question of how said warnings have been decided upon. Most of these warnings are directed at "smokers" not someone using nicotine without smoking. I asked my GP what she understood from the studies she had come across and she said from what she understood most studies were done with smoking cigarettes not just nicotine and that since nicotine's delivery system most studied (i.e. cigs) has nothing but negative side effects nicotine still carries the taint of that negative association. It has only been recently that studies have been done using only nicotine as a defining drug trial.

I can't speak for everyone but as far as the vapers I've talked with their blood pressure is down as is their heart rate. (Personally I have extremely low blood pressure and heart rate even when I smoked so in that instance genes play a huge factor with me.)

I think this is fascinating and love all the new studies coming out about nicotine by itself and what true benefits and detriments this drug actually has when divorced from smoking...but I'm a science nerd.

All I know is from my own personal experience. Before I started vaping, I was pre-hypertensive (my best friend who is an RN was even startled with my numbers)...after about six months of vaping, I had a check up and my numbers were significantly lower and within a normal range. And they still are. Not to mention just being able to breathe better. With my personal results, I'm more than willing to accept any risks that may come from vaping.

 

[Kent Brooks]

Integrity: I don't know if its safe, there's evidence to support it is not only not safe but down right dangerous... meh, I'll sell it anyway.

We're on a continuum of risk - no one (here) says vaping is "safe." Quite the opposite - I am saying all vaping, regardless of the contents of the flavoring, is NOT "safe."

I don't even knock the vendors who do use diacetyl - there's obviously a market for it... there 20 million American smokers who choose to smoke daily despite the fact that it's clearly printed on every package that "this product will kill you."

Safe is not vaping at all, discontinuing use of all caffeine, limiting your intake of fats and processed sugars, discontinuing use of any products that contain artificial coloring, growing your own food in your garden, and building a compound off the grid with renewable energy, a 15' stone "privacy fence," and arming yourself with the world's finest automatic weaponry. Nah, even that's not safe. Nevermind, safe doesn't exist - carry on.

 

[Kent Brooks]

I agree. Just like the rest of it, my take on this is, hmmm, not sure. So while it's proved useful for some things, I won't say it's harmless. People tend to translate "less harmful" by "harmless" or "less unhealthy" by "healthy" (and not only about nicotine, they do that all the time about food and it drives me crazy).

The good thing is, now that more and more people stop smoking (vaping or not), studies on nicotine alone are being conducted. I also have low blood pressure (used to faint all the freaking time when I was a teenager lol) and I sure hope nicotine didn't raise it, or I'm going to have problems when I stop taking it lol. My heart rate does increase when I smoke or vape for a few minutes, I don't know how it is, long term, never really tested it.

I'm very much encouraged by the recent reports that progress IS being made in terms of people quitting smoking, absolutely.

 

[Kent Brooks]

All I know is from my own personal experience. Before I started vaping, I was pre-hypertensive (my best friend who is an RN was even startled with my numbers)...after about six months of vaping, I had a check up and my numbers were significantly lower and within a normal range. And they still are. Not to mention just being able to breathe better. With my personal results, I'm more than willing to accept any risks that may come from vaping.

This is the key. Vendors being transparent about the risks, consumers evaluating them, and then making an informed decision about whether or not to engage in a potentially risky behavior, in an effort to avoid the world's leading cause of preventable death. If you like a liquid that contains diacetyl (from another vendor), and you are willing to accept that risk in lieu of the fact that you have determined there is no other option to prevent you from an alternative higher on the continuum of risk - by all means, hit it. If there is any acceptable option lower on the continuum of risk that you consider palatable, by all means, investigate. If possible, reduce the risk as much as is possible, all while reducing the possibility of receding to options that are higher on the continuum of risk.

Slam dunk.