And now were up to 13.

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AttyPops

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One possibility: Combustion is not the same as just heating something. E.g.: A good bit of the nicotine in a tobacco cigarette is destroyed by combustion.

But I'm inclined to think Myclobutanil likely isn't the source of the problem, mainly because the problem seems to be new, and the timing of its arrival matches up with Vitamin E acetate coming into use as a thickener.
Paragraph 1, agree.
Paragraph 2, presumptuous.

We've noted in several threads that everyone doesn't present the same. And note that they're backtracking "vaping related lung problems" a bit, so they may pick up other things. There's more than one thing going on, and that results in the caution and over-generalization we see out of the CDC. They're starting "big" and narrowing things down, scientifically, from what I can tell. Basically, they "go wide" and narrow it down. If they don't, and they get too specific and presumptuous and exclude something they shouldn't in their warnings, people die due to their bad information if they "miss something".

That said, the governors and FDA and BT and congress critters and the rest are ....problems. And they're dealing with other things besides the illnesses all at the same time (save the children agendas outside of the illness incidents).

Regardless, there's at least two if not more things going on at once: The vitamin E acetate thing, and something else. Because some don't present with lipoid pneumonia, they have other things going on that are not fats in lungs...it's fluid in lungs, but no fats. So it sounds to me (layman, but going off of the cdc reports) that it's not one single thing. There's at least three diagnosis appearing.

And who knows? Pesticides and insecticides can be used on tobacco too. So maybe some contaminated nic-base somewhere in the supply chain. We just can't say with 100% certainty that all those that present differently and claim to not be vaping mj stuff....are lying. We don't know that, and they DO present differently. IDK the correlation between the claims and the presentation, but you have to wonder as an analyst or user reading all this, even if medicine isn't your discipline.

So we want to take the easy route, and justify our ire at them messing with nic-base at the same time, but it's logically unsound. Frankly.

And remember there's two separate agendas 1) CDC illness response, and 2) ANTZ-Save The Children, at the same time.

We can say that we're sure SOME of this is cannabis related, and that it's Vit-E-a related. But it's a hell of a presumption to assume it stops there. And it's kind of a dangerous cop out. But if we play the odds, they might be self-reinforcing assumptions, since the majority of issues probably are Vit-E-a related. I just don't think it's a good idea to say it's 100% guaranteed.

(And Rossum, I'm not saying you said exactly that either, and I'm not trying to misquote you, I'm talking about the general issues here. But there COULD be a fungicide/insecticide/other contaminant issue too)
 
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deeman

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there was a tobacco company or something that was selling an actual tobacco vape that contains actual tobacco heated up and filtered somewhat. that sounds really dodgy having tried vaping tobacco it gives mouth ulcers pretty fast. better to smoke tobacco then vape it. then there is all these liquids with flavourings and low nic levels which could cause people to inhale loads of flavouring for no harm reduction purpose. i don't see that there is any reason to be inhaling at all. with tobacco inhaling has some difference in that you get carbon monoxide but with vaping the nicotine is the same absorbed in the mouth and no reason to be putting stuff in the lungs especially high amounts of synthetic flavourings when there is obviously safer options like maybe some very small amount of something natural just to give it a little flavour.
 

Rossum

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We can say that we're sure SOME of this is cannabis related, and that it's Vit-E-a related. But it's a hell of a presumption to assume it stops there. And it's kind of a dangerous cop out. But if we play the odds, they might be self-reinforcing assumptions, since the majority of issues probably are Vit-E-a related. I just don't think it's a good idea to say it's 100% guaranteed.
I don't think it's 100% guaranteed. But circumstantial evidence makes me reasonably confident that it's is at least 80% of the problem.

As to the fungicide question: Yes, myclobutanil produces hydrogen cyanide when heated. Yes, hydrogen cyanide is really nasty stuff in sufficient concentrations. But unlike vitamin E acetate, we have a pretty good idea what a dangerous concentration is when it's inhaled. All cigarette smoke contains some hydrogen cyanide, yet the media isn't running around with their hair on fire about that, are they? Heck there are even acceptable levels of occupational exposure to hydrogen cyanide.

So how hard would it be to send one of these carts that have high levels of myclobutanil out to a lab, put it on a vaping machine, and find out just how much hydrogen cyanide is produced?

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Our ability to detect bad things present in the air, water, food, and vapor has outstripped our common sense. The media will happily report "XXX substance found in YYY product, and XXX is a dangerous substance!" Trouble is they do this without bothering to check whether the levels/concentration of it is actually high enough to cause a problem.
 

Punk In Drublic

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As I have stated a few times within this thread and others, myclobutanil has been around for decades – so why the sudden outbreak now and not any major incidents from the past, especially with a new product that may have unknown consequences…like the Vit E acetate. Were illegal black market growers of the past (cause they were all pretty much illegal) that much more carful with the fungicide than they are now? Kinda doubt that.
 
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Baditude

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upload_2019-9-28_11-37-21.png


Who had the most to gain from a vape ban in the US? Big Tobacco.
Will this be the new "JUUL"? Heat not burn, non-vape.
Brilliant strategy, Big Tobacco. And perfect timing. :grr:

2.4plus-group-with-mixed-heets.jpg
 
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Baditude

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Why promote Heat Not Burn – a failed product when you could just come up with your own vape device?
What good would that do if vaping is outlawed in the US? I'm not promoting it if that's what you getting at. I hate the device. It still makes smoke from tobacco leaves, right? Nicotine vaping has just 3 - 4 chemicals in it. Have you seen the list of chemicals in the IQOS?
 
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Punk In Drublic

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What good would that do if vaping is outlawed in the US? I'm not promoting it if that's what you getting at. I hate the device. It still makes smoke from tobacco leaves, right? Nicotine vaping has just 3 - 4 chemicals in it. Have you seen the list of chemicals in the IQOS?

Not at all saying you are trying to promote it, just asking a question for it seems strange. Never looked into IQOS – no interest in doing so.
 

Baditude

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Why promote Heat Not Burn – a failed product when you could just come up with your own vape device?

Not at all saying you are trying to promote it, just asking a question for it seems strange. Never looked into IQOS – no interest in doing so.
You did say the word "promote" in you post.

I think its the first and only device approved by the FDA since the Deeming Regulations went into effect.

FDA Clears Way for IQOS 'Heat-Not-Burn' Tobacco Device
 
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Baditude

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Rossum

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What good would that do if vaping is outlawed in the US? I'm not promoting it if that's what you getting at. I hate the device. It still makes smoke from tobacco leaves, right?
It's closer to smoke than our vape is, but I do not think it qualifies as smoke. There is no combustion.

Nicotine vaping has just 3 - 4 chemicals in it. Have you seen the list of chemicals in the IQOS?
3-4 if you vape unflavored.

But have you looked at how many chemicals are in an artificial strawberry flavoring? Yes, I picked strawberry on purpose; it's a very complicated flavoring. Then consider that most flavored vapes don't just have one flavoring in them; most recipes have at least three or four, each of which is composed of many different chemicals.

That's not to say flavored vapes are bad. It's just that "3-4 chemicals" is just as bogus as claiming that "it's just water vapor", and I don't think we're doing ourselves any favors by making these claims.
 

Mazinny

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I know. It was just approved by the FDA for US use. Only just now starting to see it for sale in the US.

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It's doing well overseas.

IQOS boosts Philip Morris International's quarterly profit, revenue. Stock jumps
 

Jazzman

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Adding vitamin E acetate is not against the law. It is freely available legally on the open market and always has been. Anyone can buy it by the gallon today without issue or risk of prosecution. It would have to be proven in a court that the intended reason for adding this to vape cartridges was to injure or kill absent a law or regulation to prohibit the practice. Not likely. What people will be prosecuted for in, my opinion, is the illegal distribution and sale of a schedule 1 drug, marijuana, and even in legalized states people can be prosecuted under federal law although that's going to be a truly murky case to adjudicate.

It may be possible for the FDA to evaluate vitamin E acetate on it's own with vaping, but that would only be as it relates to what is currently federally legal to vape... our kind of vaping without THC. Since there isn't a vaping company I'm aware of making non-THC vape juice with this substance there is really no value in that kind of study. More worrisome is if this substance is present in CBD vaping carts as a thickening agent. I really don't know the answer to that, but bears serious FDA investigation since CBD has been very recently deemed a non-schedule 1 drug and legal for use in all states, unless directly prohibited by state law, of which I'm not aware of any states currently doing. The FDA certainly has jurisdiction in CBD products.

Currently, the FDA cannot provide guidance or regulation for any product with THC as a component. It is a schedule 1 drug that is illegal by Federal law and as such the FDA cannot do clinical testing and evaluate for harm or usefulness. It is already defacto just as harmful as any other schedule 1 drug just from the designation. This is in the jurisdiction of the NIH and DEA and has recently become a subject of investigation by the CDC because of the suspected health threat.

I think this is the result of Congress (both the House and the Senate and both parties) going along with the Pres. Obama approach of don't ask don't tell in regards to marijuana's schedule 1 designation being in direct conflict of state laws for those that have legalized it. There was never going to be a good outcome to that. That can of marijuana can only be kicked down the road so far and so hard before it breaks open, spills its contents, and is forced to be dealt with. It will be interesting to see if congress can recover all the lost marijuana littering the road, stuff it back in the can, and continue to kick it further down the road. I'll bet they can and will. Just another example of congressional assbaggery.

Sorry all, I just don't see the legal issues being portrayed by many (most?) of the articles I have read as being accurate when the real legal issues are quite different.
 

AttyPops

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So how hard would it be to send one of these carts that have high levels of myclobutanil out to a lab, put it on a vaping machine, and find out just how much hydrogen cyanide is produced?
How do you know they haven't? They've warned about the THC link from pretty much the beginning. I don't see the sin here, frankly.

As to myclobutanil, that's only one guess that I know of. I mean, it could be something else, somewhere else. 15 carts in one location from a news agency are a pretty small sample size. But they do see an incidence correlation with THC/CBD vaping. Problem is it wasn't 100%, or they would have said so.
 
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