Another Cotton Thread

[BigEgo]

I've been doing some reading on the safety of using cotton as a wick. There's a few things I have learned. (NOTE: I am not a doctor or medical professional).

1) Organic only means that the cotton was grown without certain pesticides. It does NOT mean that the cotton is sterile. In my opinion, organic cotton is just as much of a sham as organic food. Organic vegetables, for instance, have been shown to be no more nutritious or safe than "regular" crops. And no one has ever been able to prove a link between eating "regular" vegetables and any kind of disease. It's as much of a sham as those people who claim vaccines cause autism.

2) "Cotton Fever" is a well known problem for ...... addicts who use cotton to filter the cooked liquid. It is a result of the naturally occurring bacteria (Pantoea) which is gram negative and an endotoxin. This bacteria commonly grows on cotton and has been known to cause flu-like symptoms (which usually don't require treatment) but can also cause the sufferer to go into septic shock. This is believed to be the same bacteria responsible for the so-called "brown lung disease" that has affected many yarn and fabric manufacturing workers. In any case, it appears bacteria is the main concern with cotton.

3) If you use non-sterile cotton, then it is probably a good idea to boil it. However, I have no idea how high the temperature needs to be as different bacteria have different heat tolerances. Boiling does not guarantee that you will kill everything.

4) There is another variable here at work as well, and that is PG. Propylene Glycol is a known antibacterial and anti-fungal agent. The question is whether PG is even effective against this particular endotoxin, and if it is, how much is needed?

5) As a result of the above, it appears that sterile cotton (whether organic or not) is the way to go. Just because it is "organic" doesn't mean it is sterile.

Bottom line: We need more research into e-cigs in general. I think everyone here would agree with that. For instance, we have that recent study that found tin and other metals in e-cig vapor (granted far below the government recommended limits). We are still in the early phases of understanding the potential health effects of e-cigs and the wicking material (and coil) are probably just as important as examining the e-liquid.

 

[SilentJay]

If you use non-sterile cotton, then it is probably a good idea to boil it. However, I have no idea how high the temperature needs to be as different bacteria have different heat tolerances. Boiling does not guarantee that you will kill everything.

I don't understand why everybody assumes the only way to sterilize cotton is to boil it. I soaked cotton balls in ethanol for a couple of hours instead, and this seems far easier than boiling. Ideally you should use ethanol (everclear, not rubbing alcohol or vodka, etc.) and dilute it to 70% with distilled water (ok, I skipped this step, but will do it next time since 70% ethanol sterilizes better than 95%). I just stuffed the cotton balls into a clean, small bottle, added 2 oz of ethanol (which covered and saturated them) and let sit for a couple of hours. Squeezed them out and let air dry overnight. The longer treatment is easy because I don't have to do anything, just let them sit (maybe shake every now and then). They dry much faster than they would if boiled. Once dry I keep them in a ziplok and the cotton seems fine, makes good wicks. Definately not harmed by the ethanol, and there's no ethanol left after drying (it evaporates quickly).

Anyone else doing this?

 

[sawlight]

I can't wait to see how this unfolds. Subscribing.

 

[sawlight]

Actually I am going, against my better judgment, going to comment on this as I've seen a lot of people expressing concern over this or that in vaping.

So, when you were smoking, did you wash your hands each and every time you had a cigarette? Did you boil all your cigs? Did all the people that you either mooched off of, or mooched off of you wash their hands and boil their cigs?

I find it very odd that people would grab any old cig, stick it in their mouth and light it up without care of concern about what was in it, what was on their hands or mouths and go about life just peachy keen.
But when it comes to vaping they go out of their way to find the most obscure testing they can find in search of anything that can be found to present vaping in a negative way?
So never mind all the crap we put into our bodies without concern with cigs, but we need to make certain there isn't anything bad about vaping.

 

[vapmex]

Ethanol? really? I have used alcohol in the past to try to clean crappy atomizers with no luck, but something that I learned was that it kept a strange smell that never got away...

I won't really bother about bacteria because at the temperatures that the coils evaporates the liquid I don't think any bacteria can survive, boiled water can reach maybe 220 degrees but a fired atomizer easily reaches 400 or 500 degrees.

What I should bother is about how the cotton is treated, bleach, hydrogen peroxide, pesticides, other fibers...

Also, Everybody is thinking that wet cotton never burn but I doubt it, actually is very flammable so we may focus on what is the impact of inhaling burnt cotton.

 

[SilentJay]

Sawlight, I think nobody worries about bacteria entering their lungs from cigs because you burn the tobacco, and nothing will survive that. The point about bacteria probably not surviving the vaporization process is a valid one, though since it's so quick it's not inconceivable that some would survive.

I'd say pretty much everyone here WAS worried about what was in the cigs, which is why they're vaping and not smoking. Lots of people around want to make vaping as safe as possible. That involves lots of speculations, experimentation, and yes probably some excessive/overkill methods because you're just not sure. Overall that's a good thing. Everyone cleans stuff to their own comfort level.

 

[SilentJay]

Ethanol? really? I have used alcohol in the past to try to clean crappy atomizers with no luck, but something that I learned was that it kept a strange smell that never got away...

Then there was something other than ethanol in there, or it just moved around/altered the gunk on the atty. Ethanol will not leave anything behind, it will completely evaporate. And of course it's so safe you can drink it. For that matter, hydrogen peroxide shouldn't leave anything either. Just hydrogen and water. Pesticides might be another matter.

I don't think the cotton burns. If I run the wicks too dry I get horribly nasty dry hits, which taste about the same as dry hits from silica wicks. I think that's the VG and PG decomposing into nasty chemicals, which happens long before the cotton burns (the wick still appears intact and damp, just not damp enough). But that's speculation. It's probably more important to keep your wicks wet than worry about what they're made of.

 

[sawlight]

Sawlight, I think nobody worries about bacteria entering their lungs from cigs because you burn the tobacco, and nothing will survive that. The point about bacteria probably not surviving the vaporization process is a valid one, though since it's so quick it's not inconceivable that some would survive.

I'd say pretty much everyone here WAS worried about what was in the cigs, which is why they're vaping and not smoking. Lots of people around want to make vaping as safe as possible. That involves lots of speculations, experimentation, and yes probably some excessive/overkill methods because you're just not sure. Overall that's a good thing. Everyone cleans stuff to their own comfort level.

While I respect where you are coming from, the OP, and some others like him, keep bringing up the ONE report of minimal harmful chemicals from a skewed report that wasn't performed properly.

As for burning the tobacco, yes you do that, you also burn the glue that is used in them to make them fire safe. What is used for the filter material in a cig? Isn't it capable of being a carrier of the same bacteria? I've never heard of anyone contracting diseases from a cig, have you?
I'm just trying to be realistic about this. Do you honestly think the filters from a cig company are more sterile than sterilized cotton that hospitals use? Does that put things in a little more perspective?

As for the other question, yes, cotton does burn, take a cotton ball, stretch it out a bit and hit it with a lighter, it will go up. E-juice is also flammable, I regularly put a drop or two on rolled up SS mesh and light it on fire to oxidize wicks. So no, it's not just gunk build up that you are tasting, if the cotton gets too dry it will burn.

 

[SilentJay]

While I respect where you are coming from, the OP, and some others like him, keep bringing up the ONE report of minimal harmful chemicals from a skewed report that wasn't performed properly.

Ha, I totally missed that reference in the bottom of the post. Was that the French "study" that wasn't actually a study (i.e. the methods were secret and unpublished)? Here's the latest real study:
Levels of selected carcinogens and toxicants in ... [Tob Control. 2014] - PubMed - NCBI

Unfortunately it's paywalled, so you can't actually read the study you paid for (it was taxpayer funded research).

What is used for the filter material in a cig? Isn't it capable of being a carrier of the same bacteria? I've never heard of anyone contracting diseases from a cig, have you? ... Do you honestly think the filters from a cig company are more sterile than sterilized cotton that hospitals use?

Fair points. This would suggest that sterilizing wicks is pointless.

As for the other question, yes, cotton does burn, take a cotton ball, stretch it out a bit and hit it with a lighter, it will go up. ... if the cotton gets too dry it will burn.

Well, yes cotton will definately burn if it's dry. My reasoning was that when I drip, if I hit too much too fast I get horrible nasty effects while the wick is still damp and shows no sign of burning, and the effect is the same with a silica wick which won't burn. I just don't think it's the wick. Even if tiny spots of the wick were burning, I don't see why that would be any worse than smoking, where you're clearly burning lots of organic material. I've never smoked anything as nasty as a dry hit off a PV. But again, speculation.

 

[BigEgo]

Actually I am going, against my better judgment, going to comment on this as I've seen a lot of people expressing concern over this or that in vaping.

So, when you were smoking, did you wash your hands each and every time you had a cigarette? Did you boil all your cigs? Did all the people that you either mooched off of, or mooched off of you wash their hands and boil their cigs?

No I did not. But, then again, cigarettes had been around for many decades (centuries?) when I started smoking. Yes, I knew they were bad. Yes, I knew they could cause cancer. Yes, I knew they could potentially force me to have to carry around an oxygen tank as I got older. But, I also knew there was almost zero chance of me getting some bacterial infection as a direct result of smoking (bronchitis and other airway issues notwithstanding). Since the cigarette literally burns the tobacco, the chances of anything surviving is slim to none. Moreover, the tobacco industry is well regulated.

On the other hand, the e-cig industry is new and we live in sort of the wild west right now in relation to understanding how harmful e-cigs might or might not be. There's a lots of variables like the heat of various coils at various voltages, where the juice was made, what the coil is made of, what the wick is made of, etc.. Is cotton safer than silica? Does stainless steel carry its own risks? As you can see, I think we all have a lot to learn.

I find it very odd that people would grab any old cig, stick it in their mouth and light it up without care of concern about what was in it, what was on their hands or mouths and go about life just peachy keen.
But when it comes to vaping they go out of their way to find the most obscure testing they can find in search of anything that can be found to present vaping in a negative way?
So never mind all the crap we put into our bodies without concern with cigs, but we need to make certain there isn't anything bad about vaping.

I don't disagree and don't think I am coming off as an e-cig detractor. I sit here as I type puffing on an RBA. I only want to learn as much as I can about what is the "safest" way to vape. That's all. I do not claim to be a medical expert, a biologist or a chemist. Just an interested guy curious about what vapor might or might not contain.

 

[Drymouth2lung]

Is there any way to avoid getting this so called "cotton fever"?

 

[BigEgo]

Is there any way to avoid getting this so called "cotton fever"?

I've never heard of anyone getting it from vaping. My post was more intended to get a discussion going on whether or not it was possible. I am not a biologist or chemist, and was looking for input on those who might be more educated on such matters. The "cotton fever" is a problem with intravenous drug users who use cotton as filters. Obviously, they are injecting the liquid directly into their bloodstream, so it's a bit different from vaping.

As for inhalation, cotton workers have been known to get what's known as "brown lung disease" (Byssinosis) which is a result of inhaling cotton fibers. But these are raw, untreated fibers that haven't been sterilized.

 

[Drymouth2lung]

I've never heard of anyone getting it from vaping. My post was more intended to get a discussion going on whether or not it was possible. I am not a biologist or chemist, and was looking for input on those who might be more educated on such matters. The "cotton fever" is a problem with intravenous drug users who use cotton as filters. Obviously, they are injecting the liquid directly into their bloodstream, so it's a bit different from vaping.

As for inhalation, cotton workers have been known to get what's known as "brown lung disease" (Byssinosis) which is a result of inhaling cotton fibers. But these are raw, untreated fibers that haven't been sterilized.

Ahhh, that leads me to my next question. What's the best method for cleaning cotton?

 

[jdeezy92]

Then there was something other than ethanol in there, or it just moved around/altered the gunk on the atty. Ethanol will not leave anything behind, it will completely evaporate. And of course it's so safe you can drink it. For that matter, hydrogen peroxide shouldn't leave anything either. Just hydrogen and water. Pesticides might be another matter.

I don't think the cotton burns. If I run the wicks too dry I get horribly nasty dry hits, which taste about the same as dry hits from silica wicks. I think that's the VG and PG decomposing into nasty chemicals, which happens long before the cotton burns (the wick still appears intact and damp, just not damp enough). But that's speculation. It's probably more important to keep your wicks wet than worry about what they're made of.

I remember reading somewhere in another thread that the cottons they used were "bleached white with hydrogen peroxide" they went on to discuss that the H2O2 used to whiten the cotton evaporates quickly but there was a binding (or bonding) agent used as well that remained, didnt subscribe to the post so I dont know how that turned out. Im currently using sterile cotton balls found in the first aid section of CVS.

 

[sawlight]

Is there any way to avoid getting this so called "cotton fever"?

Ahhh, that leads me to my next question. What's the best method for cleaning cotton?

Nope, no way to make any of this safe, you are going to die, don't use cotton, don't use Kanthal, nothing about this is safe. It's best you just don't do it at all.

 

[Xenon]

I started using cotton as wicking material like a week ago. It's medical cotton, and you can tell that by the smell too, so I boiled it for 15 minutes 3 times, with new water every time. The medical taste has gone away almost completely (my friends didn't even feel it), but after a few days I started getting a weird lung pain when inhaling (air) deeply. I'm gonna boil it again, and see if it helps, but did anyone experienced the same symptoms? I like cotton way more than silica, and I'd like to keep using it.

 

[Barn Burner]

Sawlight, I think nobody worries about bacteria entering their lungs from cigs because you burn the tobacco, and nothing will survive that.

Nonsense, one "vapes" the tobacco, the moisture within it and any bacteria that it may contain by way of the heat that the fire generates downstream of the actual burning of the tobacco. In other words... the tobacco, paper and filter (if present) get extremely hot long before they are ignited and actually burn.

Make no mistake, aside from dangers of the battery under high drain, smoking has every danger vaping has, and much more.

 

[Drymouth2lung]

All this talk about cotton is kinda scarring me haha. What's the best wicking material that would be similar to cotton?

 

[sawlight]

 

[SleeZy]

Moreover, the tobacco industry is well regulated.

You gotta be kidding me? Yes it's regulated to ADD more chemicals in cigarettes to get us even more hooked.
You do know that pure/plain tobacco isn't all that bad? It's all the other 4000 chemicals ADDED into the cigarettes that makes them so dangerous.

You lost me when you said this.