Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!

[DC2]

So the shorter answer regarding your question is, I'm not sure what else I can say about the issue since right now I can't speak, and additionally the original numbers I posted were dismissed by people who seem to be leading this movement.

I was hoping to see your critique of the mathematical model Fernand put forward in post 626 above.

I was thinking it would be enlightening to see where your calculations and his differed.
And what your thoughts were on those differences.

It would be great if the two folks who have gone through the research to put such a model together could hammer out the details.
Hopefully you'll get some spare time to give it a look.

 

[Fernand]

Cozzicon, that's helpful. So you are saying that in the juice 15% flavoring is high. My high was 12%. I don't think it's often that all of the flavoring would be say vanilla custard, but let's allow for such a case at the high end. We know that 1.5 grams per 100 is realistic diketone concentration in the flavoring itself. That's how we get 4.3ppm, for a working range of say 1-4 ppm for heavy vapers who like heavy flavoring. But if that's even in the ballpark, given such serious damage at 100-350 ppm for EITHER of the two (so far) known diketone flavorings, it's not good.

I'm not involved with any movement. I think the ones who are leading the charge are a bit hysterical and ignoring the broader issues. Like the likely toxicity of other flavorings. They also demonize, don't appreciate the general good will of vendors, and don't understand how difficult and costly it is to analyze everything. That's why I think it's most important to draw our own conclusions. Mine is to drastically reduce ALL use of flavorings, but especially ones likely to contain diketones.

 

[cozzicon]

Cozzicon, that's helpful. So you are saying that in the juice 15% flavoring is high. My high was 12%. I don't think it's often that all of the flavoring would be say vanilla custard, but let's allow for such a case at the high end. We know that 1.5 grams per 100 is realistic diketone concentration in the flavoring itself. That's how we get 4.3ppm, for a working range of say 1-4 ppm for heavy vapers who like heavy flavoring. But if that's even in the ballpark, given such serious damage at 100-350 ppm for EITHER of the two (so far) known diketone flavorings, it's not good.

I'm not involved with any movement. I think the ones who are leading the charge are a bit hysterical and ignoring the broader issues. Like the likely toxicity of other flavorings. They also demonize, don't appreciate the general good will of vendors, and don't understand how difficult and costly it is to analyze everything. That's why I think it's most important to draw our own conclusions. Mine is to drastically reduce ALL use of flavorings, but especially ones likely to contain diketones.

Well- the 15% high number is for flavorings with multiple flavors. Many flavors are lower in total with multiple flavorings. Typically the breakdown of 4 or 5 flavors is far lower per flavor, juices with a single flavor, are far lower than 15%.

Remember- when a vendor names a flavor, it could be a mixture of flavors, or a single flavor. Single flavor mixes from what I have seen are far lower percentages of flavorings that multi- flavoring mixes.

I cannot get deeper than that except to say that vendors are concerned about it. Many of them. But the choice here is pretty plain- unless someone pulls out a gas chromatograph for free. There's going to be a wait for the kind of disclosure most people want.

 

[Bovinia]

Well- the 15% high number is for flavorings with multiple flavors. Many flavors are lower in total with multiple flavorings. Typically the breakdown of 4 or 5 flavors is far lower per flavor, juices with a single flavor, are far lower than 15%.

Remember- when a vendor names a flavor, it could be a mixture of flavors, or a single flavor. Single flavor mixes from what I have seen are far lower percentages of flavorings that multi- flavoring mixes.

I cannot get deeper than that except to say that vendors are concerned about it. Many of them. But the choice here is pretty plain- unless someone pulls out a gas chromatograph for free. There's going to be a wait for the kind of disclosure most people want.

Cozzi, I assume you are talking about juice vendors rather than flavoring companies?

 

[cozzicon]

Cozzi, I assume you are talking about juice vendors rather than flavoring companies?

Yes.

/10chars

 

[Bovinia]

Yes.

/10chars

Thank you for the answer. The reason I asked is that you talk about single flavor vs. multi flavor blends, and I want to be sure I understand the distinction between the two. Taking Fernand's example of Vanilla Custard e-juice, I'm not quite sure which category it falls under. You can purchase it from a flavoring company as an already blended flavor to be added to nic and buffer. Would a juice vendor consider this a single flavor juice or a multi? It is a combination of flavorings pre-packaged...so to speak.

Understand that I am all about disclosure, not bans or blacklisting, etc. I'm just a consumer trying to educate myself as best I can in an area where little research has been done to date. At least not in the way we are using these products.

 

[GoodDog]

The way I see it the people creating the problems were the ones arguing that it's better than smoking and ridiculing anyone saying that the vendors should disclose. I didn't see it at all that people on the side of this issue were saying the sky is falling. The emotional arguments came mostly from the vendors' fanbois and the trolls that didn't bother to read the entire thread/threads. It's funny to see these same people now saying they're on the side of disclosure.

Sorry cozz, but I don't trust any vendor after all I've seen in the last year. If you are aligning with them I doubt you can be objective once the money starts rolling in. Maybe I'm just jaded but without consumers watching I don't hold much hope for this industry.

 

[Maast]

Oy, I read up to post 250 or so, then skipped to post 601 - evidently I skipped a good bit if drama as well. EXCELLENT info so far. I have an idea, which may have been covered so far.

I would like to propose a "Whitelist" of vendors that are KNOWN to NOT carry liquids containing diacetyl and/or acetyl propionyl, perhaps we could make it a sticky thread in one of the sub forums.

Thats not to say that a vendor not on the list does carry liquids containing the toxins of concern; just that they havent been verified not to. That thread would have to be locked and only one or two people able to edit it - else we risk another 600+ post count thread and the value of such a whitelist would be diluted to unusability.

The advertising value of such a list would encourage the other vendors to convert over to flavorings free of the toxins.
I understand, and somewhat agree, that actual lab work would be best. However we just dont have it yet and we'll have to proceed with what information we have NOW, and edit as more information comes available.

Thoughts?

 

[Fernand]

Just recently you guys wanted to force disclosure of diacetyl. Because each level uses known and proprietary elements, it's very difficult, regardless of good will. Now you want to add disclosure of acetyl propionyl. Because food is huge business, substitutes that only a savvy chemist will recognize as "more of the same" will likely be developed as fast as they are damned. Your proposal would likely most penalize those who try to disclose the most. Flavourart tried to be helpful, and it probably just made their image worse. I doubt this sort of arm-twisting would bring about desired results.

Vanilla custard is an example of a common flavoring type that might be used in e-liquid at high level, maybe even 15%. It would likely contain 1-2% diketones, producing over 4ppm in the model I proposed.

 

[Maast]

Fernand you may have confused me with somebody else, the above post was my first in this thread.

Your own calculations convinced me that we MAY be be approaching harmful levels of diacetyl - there may be a safe dose, but we dont know what it is. Even being within an order of magnitude of harmful levels is enough to make me nervous enough to want to avoid the problem entirely.

Especially since I CAN avoid the problem EASILY with a simple switch to another flavoring provider.

My intent is only that I want to know safe vendors where I can purchase my liquid from - failing that I want to know which flavors contain any levels of diacetyl, and I'm sure many many more want to know the same information.

I dont hold with blacklisting, thats a road we dont want to go down as once you're on a "ban" list its hard to get off - this is why I suggest a WHITELIST; a list of of vendors that do not use ANY flavorings containing diacetyl - a known toxin.

 

[SimpleSins]

this is why I suggest a WHITELIST; a list of of vendors that do not use ANY flavorings containing diacetyl - a known toxin.

There was one started. I believe at one point it was old enough that the original post could not be edited so not all vendors may have been added to the first post. Also keep in mind that these are ones where the vendor self-identified as being diacetyl free; there is, though, at least once instance where a vendor declared itself to be diacetyl free but was later shown to contain it, so these could bear a little further investigation (not included on the diacetyl-free juice provider list). Right now, it seems that of the major flavoring agents, only FlavourArt out of Italy uses diacetyl in some of its flavorings (there is a semi-complete list- not fully updated- of which contain it on the FlavourArt web site). Apparently some vendors who use FlavourArt are not willing to disclose which of their juices contain diacetyl-containing FA flavorings, so it's up to the purchaser to determine how to deal with it- either avoid a supplier who uses FA without disclosure or learn the list and avoid anything that might contain diacetyl (which would include some flavors other than the butters- like RY4 which contains caramel which has it, a lot of the baked goods, butterscotch type flavors, etc). Without vendor cooperation, obviously avoiding diacetyl is not quite as simple as just deciding not to vape anything containing it.

Here is the list of diacetyl free vendors:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-please-keep-just-listing-supplier-names.html

 

[Travis798]

There was one started. I believe at one point it was old enough that the original post could not be edited so not all vendors may have been added to the first post. Also keep in mind that these are ones where the vendor self-identified as being diacetyl free; there is, though, at least once instance where a vendor declared itself to be diacetyl free but was later shown to contain it, so these could bear a little further investigation (not included on the diacetyl-free juice provider list). Right now, it seems that of the major flavoring agents, only FlavourArt out of Italy uses diacetyl in some of its flavorings (there is a semi-complete list- not fully updated- of which contain it on the FlavourArt web site). Apparently some vendors who use FlavourArt are not willing to disclose which of their juices contain diacetyl-containing FA flavorings, so it's up to the purchaser to determine how to deal with it- either avoid a supplier who uses FA without disclosure or learn the list and avoid anything that might contain diacetyl (which would include some flavors other than the butters- like RY4 which contains caramel which has it, a lot of the baked goods, butterscotch type flavors, etc). Without vendor cooperation, obviously avoiding diacetyl is not quite as simple as just deciding not to vape anything containing it.

Here is the list of diacetyl free vendors:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-please-keep-just-listing-supplier-names.html

I really don't think that the vendor meant to lie, I just don't think that they realized the flavorings they used contained diacetyl at that time. I absolutely could be wrong, but simply going by the otherwise great reputation of said vendor, an outright lie just seems to be out of character. You're point remains valid though. Some vendors just don't know.

 

[Fernand]

Some vendors don't know? MOST vendors don't know.
A whitelist is just a blacklist in reverse.
If you avoid a vendor who maybe does not use diacetyl, and feel safer, you are naive. For one thing that vendor is using acetyl propionyl, which turned rats into smoldering roadkill just as effectively as diacetyl.

This illustrates just some of the problems!

 

[Travis798]

Fernand, if you get into a battle of trying to tell people anything rational like concentration does matter, or diacetyl substitutions may be just as bad, let me warn you that it's an uphill run.

People want to simply stay away from diacetyl now that they have heard about it and know that it could be in their juice and feel safe. If you try to threaten that logic, in their minds you are threatening their safety, and trust me, they will try to string you up by your feet and skin you alive for it. Logic and reason has no place here.

Just a warning...

 

[GoodDog]

Fernand, you seem to be doing the same thing many others have done with grouping people by whether they want disclosure or whether they don't care. This has caused separation and dissension on ECF and I don't think there are two distinct separate groups. I think many just wanted to ensure this subject didn't get swept under the rug like it has so many other times here. I don't think anyone should be categorized as "you guys" if they're wanting more information. I'm not doing a very good job of relaying my thoughts and maybe I'll try again when I'm feeling better.

 

[Fernand]

The conclusions people might consider:

Reduce flavorings in your vape. All flavorings.
But especially flavors that seem "buttery".
Vape more moderately. Don't inhale as much.

 

[Panini]

From what I have found, concentration matters in two ways:

1) Exposure to high concentrations
2) Repeated exposure to low concentrations

So...how does "concentration matter" here? We are repeatedly exposing ourselves to a low concentration. No one here has commented on the cumulative impacts. THAT is what I am concerned with. Not taking one vape of this stuff. The every day, repeated use.

And am I aware there are probably other risks? Ummm...of course. "Outing" diacetyl is probably the first step in creating a responsible industry. What happens if another health risk is uncovered? I would hope we do the same.

And whether that vendor "lied" or not is beside the point now. "That vendor" had many opportunities to acknowledge the mistake or give explanation. Instead, threads are locked and people are accused of working for the competition.

 

[Fernand]

Panini, the vocabulary you use puts us on very different wavelengths. You like "outing", "responsible", "acknowledge mistake". This is not the language of science, of information. It is the language of accusation. That's what bothers some people.

I would ideally like to know the exact composition of everything I inhale or ingest. And full toxicology on every element. But I recognize that the difficulties are TRULY enormous. My personal reaction is to try to get enough data and understanding to make informed decisions, even if I can't get complete detailed lists of ingredients. I have tried to show why Black vs. White lists, or "outing", or blame, strike me as a waste of time, unfair and incapable of keeping up with the facts. The Diacetyl-free-vendors list, for instance, is obsolete and irrelevant.

As of today, there are three compounds we know of that can give that thick buttery taste thats used so widely: diacetyl and acetyl propionyl (that are diketones) and acetoin. New ones may be discovered or created in the future, but for now, that's it. We have learned that the diketones are quite toxic.

I will certainly be keeping an eye open for toxicology reports on acetoin, to know if that might be a safer "buttery" substitute. If the animal tests suggest acetoin is far safer, I will be pushing for replacing all diketones like diacetyl and acetyl propionyl with acetoin. THAT would be appropriate pressure. If any results suggest acetoin is just as damaging, all the food companies and flavoring makers will be scrambling to find better substitutes, but until there is one that doesn't obliterate rat airways at say 350 ppm, I will aim to avoid all buttery flavors, just as I am doing now.

The kind of information I want from the flavorists right now is whether e.g. English Toffee, or Waffle, or Cheesecake, are "buttery" flavors, likely to be using a lot of diketones, or not. Although all flavorings should be viewed with suspicion, the diketones are at the top of my villain list, for good reason, I think. I'm more interested in that sort of information than compiling black or white lists, because then I can make my own decisions.

 

[Panini]

Panini, the vocabulary you use puts us on very different wavelengths. You like "outing", "responsible", "acknowledge mistake". This is not the language of science, of information. It is the language of accusation. That's what bothers some people.

Really? I guess I'll have to brush up on the "language of accusation" because I think you're making a giant leap here. And way to avoid addressing anything I've actually said.

Edit: To say I'm not against doing our own research, but we simply aren't being given the tools to do that. I apologize if my post seems confrontational, but I am just getting a little exhausted by all of the obfiscating. I believe my points are valid -- just as valid as yours. I also don't find the terms "responsible" or "acknowledge mistake" to be accusatory. That is a giant assumption on your part. However, I will accept that the word "outing" could be accusatory...though it is directed toward diacetyl so I'm not sure if offending a substance qualifies as something negative.

 

[Maast]

My point is that if we wait until we have perfect and complete information to act then we'll NEVER act - we have to go with what we reasonably know (based on enough evidence) at the time and then adjust after more information becomes available.

What we know now is that diacetyl and acetyl propionyl can be present in concentrations that may cause long-term harm.
Is it likely that your average user who vapes buttery flavor will get popcorn lung? - No.
But the possibility is strong enough with the information we have at hand to drive a change in purchasing behavior.

I'm willing to bet diacetyl and acetyl propionyl are only the first of several toxins that are discovered in PV juice, as we discover those people will have to make their own risk decisions to avoid those or not.

I was lucky to survive a 25 year pack-a-day habit, my lungs are probably like leather, personally I need to avoid ANY further possible damage to my lungs which means when a toxin is discovered I'll avoid it.

I'm an engineer, I'll let you in on a little secret: Engineers calculate things 8-ways from Sunday before doing something, but when we design/build something we're STILL having to go with our best educated guess because there are too many approximations built into the calculation/design phase. We might be 97% or 99% sure, but we're never COMPLETELY sure until we actually build and test it.