Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!

[Travis798]

While I can't be sure, I'd image that they substituted it. It doesn't seem like they would have very good buttery flavors without a buttery flavoring.

 

[JeffTM]

Travis. Other substitutes have been mentioned, which is why we're for disclosure of all ingredients so we can decide for ourselves.

 

[warbdan]

The boiling point of PG and VG are much higher, so it wouldn't work.



Acetoin, delta-tetradecalactone, and ethyl lactate.

I don't think acetoin would be a good alternative CDC testing of Acetoin
Due to the reactivity of acetoin (under certain environmental conditions acetoin can be converted to diacetyl
and vice versa [2]), several special handling requirements were included in this m ethod development. A
deactivated glass inlet liner was used to ...... the oxidation of acetoin to diacetyl and to prevent analyte
decomposition in the injection port.

 

[warbdan]

MSDS for ethyl lactate doesn't look deadly. Maybe a viable substitute? Any one have any experience with this?

 

[warbdan]

All the info I can find on delta-tetradecalactone says to move to fresh air in cases of overexposure. It seems this or ethyl lactate could be viable alternatives to diacetyl. Acetoin is not because it can turn into diacetyl according to the CDC report.

 

[Travis798]

Travis. Other substitutes have been mentioned, which is why we're for disclosure of all ingredients so we can decide for ourselves.

Except the only way even the juice vendors can know every chemical in their juice, is if those that make the flavors they use to mix with list every chemical in their flavoring. I haven't checked to see if any of them do, but I'm betting they don't. While they may go as far as telling you if they contain one ingredient and the amount of that ingredient, listing a combination and amount of every ingredient could compromise their business model.

People talk about ingredients listed on other things they buy, but if you notice, some of those ingredients are simply listed as "natural and artificial flavorings" or such. They don't list everything that comprises those flavorings.

 

[warbdan]

You're exactly right. We put a lot of faith in a lot of people everyday. I hope these low amounts of diacetyl turn out to be a non-issue, but it is a little scary.

 

[bombastinator]

Travis. Other substitutes have been mentioned, which is why we're for disclosure of all ingredients so we can decide for ourselves.

Getting as bit lost here. Who is "we"? I like the concept of required disclosure. I'm just a bit worried about what might come along with it. Increasing corporate control of politics has made government control an iffy thing. I think Obama would likely put someone decent in, but what happens when the administration changes and laws go back to being ownbed by the highest bidder again?

I am specifically worried about the new owners of Runyan who seem to be so hot to avoid naming themselves. i love the idea of not being poisoned or given cancer. That's awesome! What I don't love is having this thing run with the same wild profiteering seen in the pharmaceutical industry combined with the cynical amoral chicanery of the tobacco industry.

This is not to say that the current situation is acceptable either. This is only one of the drugs that worries me. Myocine for example is a class one carcinogen, and if you buy nicotine with the myocine removed ive seen wholesale quotes of $255/litre for pure nicotine. If it comes without the myocine removed it's only $140/litre. How many of your suppliers are buying the cheap stuff?

 

[warbdan]

i just found that Acetoin, which turns into diacetyl, and 2,3 pentanadione, which is as bad as diacetyl are both in cigarettes too, so vape your brains out. I'd like to see it removed but I don't think it really matters any more. It's a moot point to me, I still feel vaping is wayyyy safer than smoking.

 

[shanagan]

i just found that Acetoin, which turns into diacetyl, and 2,3 pentanadione, which is as bad as diacetyl are both in cigarettes too, so vape your brains out. I'd like to see it removed but I don't think it really matters any more. It's a moot point to me, I still feel vaping is wayyyy safer than smoking.

Keep reading.

 

[rolygate]

i just found that Acetoin, which turns into diacetyl, and 2,3 pentanadione, which is as bad as diacetyl are both in cigarettes too, so vape your brains out. I'd like to see it removed but I don't think it really matters any more. It's a moot point to me, I still feel vaping is wayyyy safer than smoking.

The thing is, Warbdan, that the delivery vector for diacetyl appears critical to its effect on the lungs.

Example: people who were exposed to the diluted vapor feature more in the injury stats then they should do compared to those who handled concentrated liquids and powders.

Example: it seems to have no effect on smokers whatsoever. We don't know if that is because the inhaled concentration is too low, or if there is some mechanism that prevents diacetyl acting aggressively in cigarette smoke, or even if there is some protective mechanism in action. Diacetyl acts fast, the patient presents within two or three years in many cases, so we'd certainly know if smokers are affected - and they aren't.

We just have no idea what the effect of inhaling food flavors like this might be, and no amount of conjecture will provide an answer. Only the stats from people doing it for a few years is any use. It could be that only the last year or so has seen any wide usage of buttery flavors, so we won't know the answer for a while yet. If we are lucky, we might get the cigarette effect: no effect on e-smokers. We sure don't want any of the popcorn factory effect.

It's known to cause serious irreversible injury so it makes sense to avoid it. As long as the info is out there, people can choose. It's just another risk factor in modern urban life, nothing to get unduly worked up about. Just as it makes sense to avoid crossing the street through heavy traffic, it makes sense to avoid things like flavors that shouldn't be inhaled - you might live longer. Simply a personal decision. If you're in desperate hurry, perhaps you'll chance it running through the traffic. If you're desperate to get that full, buttery flavor, you might chance the Butter Popcorn vape. Your choice. No one else cares much.

 

[warbdan]

Agreed, but even if diacetyl isn't in your buttery flavored juice, something as bad or worse is. Acetoin and 2,3 pentanedione are proving to be just as bad according to OSHA. I choose to vape tobacco flavors and veer from the buttery, fruity, and creamy flavors anyway. I just think it would be a crying shame if someone chose to vape instead of smoking as a means to a healthier life and then got popcorn lung instead. I also feel that as an unregulated community of like minded people, we should do everything we can to make our products as safe as possible. We are adamant about using protected batteries, but to let something like this go unchecked would be plain irresponsible.

 

[rolygate]

There is a clear and demonstrable danger from small/unprotected Li-ion batteries. Some buyers of mods don't know that, and some sellers of mods don't tell their customers. So it's comparatively easy for ECF to publicize the issue. It may create a debate about the finer points but the job gets done.

There are implied dangers from some chemical flavorings, but there are some problems:
1. No one has been hurt yet.
2. The only way to know if those constituents are in the mix is a lab test.
3. Lab testing is expensive.

Because none of the suppliers popular with the community test their product, there is no real market advantage to any supplier by stating "Our product is XXX-free", some buyers believe it and some don't. But as soon as a couple of suppliers lab test their e-liquid and then advertise it as contaminant-free, it will give them a marketing advantage, since most e-cig users are health-conscious or they wouldn't be here. That will force others to do the same.

At that point there will be a benefit to buyers as the actual quality, as opposed to the advertised quality, will be improved.

So as you can imagine I am fairly keen that a supplier starts the ball rolling. The first one to kick it off will get plenty of publicity, and they will deserve it.

 

[nicnac]

There is a clear and demonstrable danger from small/unprotected Li-ion batteries. Some buyers of mods don't know that, and some sellers of mods don't tell their customers. So it's comparatively easy for ECF to publicize the issue. It may create a debate about the finer points but the job gets done.

There are implied dangers from some chemical flavorings, but there are some problems:
1. No one has been hurt yet.
2. The only way to know if those constituents are in the mix is a lab test.
3. Lab testing is expensive.

Because none of the suppliers popular with the community test their product, there is no real market advantage to any supplier by stating "Our product is XXX-free", some buyers believe it and some don't. But as soon as a couple of suppliers lab test their e-liquid and then advertise it as contaminant-free, it will give them a marketing advantage, since most e-cig users are health-conscious or they wouldn't be here. That will force others to do the same.

At that point there will be a benefit to buyers as the actual quality, as opposed to the advertised quality, will be improved.

So as you can imagine I am fairly keen that a supplier starts the ball rolling. The first one to kick it off will get plenty of publicity, and they will deserve it.

I agree.
I also think we should create a sub-forum for the suppliers to post the info about their juice so all the info could be gathered in one place and easy to access.

 

[Bovinia]

There is a clear and demonstrable danger from small/unprotected Li-ion batteries. Some buyers of mods don't know that, and some sellers of mods don't tell their customers. So it's comparatively easy for ECF to publicize the issue. It may create a debate about the finer points but the job gets done.

There are implied dangers from some chemical flavorings, but there are some problems:
1. No one has been hurt yet.
2. The only way to know if those constituents are in the mix is a lab test.
3. Lab testing is expensive.

Because none of the suppliers popular with the community test their product, there is no real market advantage to any supplier by stating "Our product is XXX-free", some buyers believe it and some don't. But as soon as a couple of suppliers lab test their e-liquid and then advertise it as contaminant-free, it will give them a marketing advantage, since most e-cig users are health-conscious or they wouldn't be here. That will force others to do the same.

At that point there will be a benefit to buyers as the actual quality, as opposed to the advertised quality, will be improved.

So as you can imagine I am fairly keen that a supplier starts the ball rolling. The first one to kick it off will get plenty of publicity, and they will deserve it.

This is what I would like to see

 

[warbdan]

Inhalable chocolate, anyone? LeWhif

 

[warbdan]

This is an interesting read about natural and artificial flavorings. Artificial and Natural Flavorings: Avoid Them All! - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com The only way to truly avoid the chemicals would be to vape unflavored e-liquid if you went by this. We gotta have some flavor though. I'd say moderation is the key. Try using 5% flavor instead of ordering the "double shot" which would be 20%.

 

[v1John]

I haven't studied this much, but I think that it has to do with something like free radicals and electron affinities. When diacetyl is at the epithelial cells in the lungs, there is a possible electron uptake which damages the outer layers of the lining cells, and it is also how dna mutations can occur if and when a free radical reaches and takes up electrons from dna (not necessarily diacetyl). I don't think that diacetyl reaches the dna, or maybe that it does so much harm by the time it does, but the reason for this post is that it made me think and wonder if there are possible mitigating processes at the cartomizer, prior to the diacetyl intake.

I mean if the molecules are looking for electrons to steal, what if we could give them plenty of electrons before they're even inhaled? It's a strange situation, because at the coil of the carto we already have lots of electrons, and it's how I found this thread, when I was wondering about gunk on the coil and ways to minimize that.

In the threads at the cartomizer department, link here:
Cartomizer Issues
I think we mostly determined already that flavoring plays the biggest role in the gunking of the coil. Now I just wonder if the there is a good way to keep diacetyl and free radicals neutralized before they're inhaled? Would charged plates between the coil and the user have a good effect on the bad molecules? Would the coil, or both?

 

[Zelphie]

Sorry I dont know how to quote properly...


Originally Posted by warbdan
"i just found that Acetoin, which turns into diacetyl, and 2,3 pentanadione, which is as bad as diacetyl are both in cigarettes too, so vape your brains out. I'd like to see it removed but I don't think it really matters any more. It's a moot point to me, I still feel vaping is wayyyy safer than smoking".

Keep reading.

I find all these possible substitutes very unsettling, and i realize it would require chasing one chemical after another which some may call a pointless endevor, but I see that as what needs to happen to eventually get somewhere. Address each one as it comes to light. SO, I youve been quit active on this issue and I wanted to thank you for that. I appritiate your concern.

Ive read through all the threads on this topic but I must confess, with so much going on its hard to remember it all. What I want to know at this point is,... are people so far, planning on asking if flavor suppliers contain not only diacetyl, but 2,3, pentanadione, and acetoin, including others I forgot about? And what can be done to inquire about this issue from various chinese suppliers. Do you thihnk they would even bother to answer? If they did, would you trust them or anyone for that matter?
Personally I dont trust anyone, and yes for anyone that may wonder, I do think it's possible for us to be lied to.

 

[bombastinator]

i just found that Acetoin, which turns into diacetyl, and 2,3 pentanadione, which is as bad as diacetyl are both in cigarettes too, so vape your brains out. I'd like to see it removed but I don't think it really matters any more. It's a moot point to me, I still feel vaping is wayyyy safer than smoking.

this usually windsw up still being a question of numbers. It's not good for instance if there's a thousand times more for example