Athiest Converts After Seeing a Demon on His Shoulder!

[closetsmokr]

Yes, I was making an analogy about how it is improper to make insulting comments about other people. I have not argued with you, nor have I asked you to defend your beliefs. I am a believer, so I think I am within the rules of the forum. All I am requesting, again, is that you choose your words carefully and perhaps try not to utilize inappropriate labels. You say that you would not go to another forum and post there, but I would be willing to bet that you would if someone called you a deplorable name or tried to say that you are evil. Just, please, show some common courtesy - especially after it's been pointed out to you.

 

[LisaLisa]

My answers in RED below.

Um, Why can't you just end your statement where I did? What about religious freedoms and tolerance? This is America where people are free to have their own beliefs.

I support religious freedom. If it were not for religious freedom, I too would not be able to openly worship. I also support tolerance for other's beliefs. I don't go around killing non-christians, or saying that they don't have the right to believe what they want to believe. They absolutely do have that right, and that's the way that it should be. But, on the flip side, I also have that right too. I have the right to believe what I believe, and as long as I'm not involved in illegal activities in practicing my beliefs, or running around committing crimes because of my beliefs, then I am just like every other american. I tolerate them, they should tolerate me. Goes both ways. I refuse to change my beliefs because they offend some people, that would not be religious freedom for me.

I respect your beliefs and am trying to learn.

I'm not sure how to reconcile this with what some muslims believe... that the koran says all must be converted to worship allah or they are infidels which must be made slaves or killed. This is more drastic than what I've seen here but I'm sure anyone could find (or discern) places in the bible to justify killing anti-christs (or incest or anything you wanted to justify if you don't need specifics).

How much of a leap is that? All non-believers are anti-christ and satan worshipers. God wants the world rid of satan and his followers..... right?

"Only YOU can decide your own fate. I hope you make the right decision for your own sake. "

There is never any justification for any christian to hurt another person, unless it's self defense, like someone broke into my home and is trying to kill me. Christians as a group, teach and practice peace, and do not advocate the extermination of anyone, at all, for any reason.

As far as muslims are concerned, there are radical muslim groups out there that do advocate killing people because of their religion, and they actually do it. But, the majority of muslims don't do this kind of thing. But, regardless, muslims and christians are not on the same page as far as religion is concerned. Muslims reject Jesus, and Jesus is the foundation for Christians, so these 2 religions are not even closely related.

It's that mexican drug gang bullying tactics. Only the villagers can decide when the gangs ask... they better give the right answer or they'll be seeing their maker soon than they wished..... I don't undertsand why god uses scare tactics instead of love and compassion... well he uses that to but sends you to hell and eternal damnation if you don't do what he says.

God does not use scare tactics, Jesus didn't while He was on earth. Jesus spoke mostly of love, compassion, goodness, how to be a righteous person, and salvation only comes from Him because He was the messiah. But, Jesus did speak of hell, the place for the dammed.

The Bible says that God loved the world so much that He sent His son to be a sacrifice for our sins. He made a provision to reconcile humanity to Him. If people accept this Holy provision, then they are forgiven for their sins, they are made clean and can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven and receive eternal life.

If you do not accept His Holy provision, you will be held accountable for your sins, and there is no forgiveness other then through Jesus. If you reject Him, you also reject His provision for your sins. A person that is unrepentant, and full of sin, can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Heaven is a Holy place where God Himself lives. God has requirements, He is Holy. What is Holy can't live with what is unholy. It's not even possible. Darkness can't live in the presence of the light. For this reason, those who die in an unrepentant state, can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Hell is outside the Kingdom of Heaven, and that is where satan, his demons, and others exist. They torment eachother because they are full of hate and evil. That's why they are there in the first place. They love what is bad, and hate what is good.

God does not want anyone to go there, it hurts Him deeply when anyone rejects His Holy and perfect provision. He is painfully aware of every single person that ends up there, and He suffers because of it. Yet, He is Holy and Righteous, and He has laws and requirements, He is God. He has standards that He upholds. Does not mean that He does not love you, because nothing could be further from the truth. He loved you so much that He came to earth and suffered on a cross so that you would never have to go there.

But, it's a choice you have to make. He will not force you to love or worship Him. He created you with free will so that you have the right to make the choice yourself. He only wants those who want to worship Him, He did not create a bunch of robots, we were created in His image, with free will.

To not be for something is not to be against it.

Sometimes it is, especially when there are only 2 options.

If I don't like Chinese food, that doesn't mean I like Italian food. If I don't like candy, it doesn't mean I love fruit...

Is it a part of religion to believe you're right and everyone else or anyone with different thoughts is a sinner or infidel or satan worshiper?

Everybody is a sinner. When you get right down to it, we are all not worthy of God's great blessings in Heaven because we all sin and all fall short every single day. The only difference is that Christians accept the Messiah and His covering for their sins, while other religions do not.

What happened to live and let live? I bet I could find something to justify that attitude in the bible....

We do believe in live and let live. Like I said earlier, I fully support a person's religous freedoms. I don't run around trying to stamp out other religions. It's a choice, and everyone has a God given right to make that choice for themselves. I support that choice as well. But, I believe what the Bible says, and it says that there is only one way to heaven, and that is through the sacrifice of Jesus. So, in the end, I support a person's right to choose their own fate, but I will not lie to people and tell them that they are going to heaven no matter what they believe, because that's not what the Bible says, and I wouldn't be doing them any favors by lying to them and as a Christian I'm not allowed to lie anyway.

Jesus didn't come to earth, suffer a horrible death, to save people from going to heaven. Think about it.

 

[LisaLisa]

You say that you would not go to another forum and post there, but I would be willing to bet that you would if someone called you a deplorable name or tried to say that you are evil. Just, please, show some common courtesy - especially after it's been pointed out to you.

Oh yes, that has actually happened more then once. For the most part, I just ignore it because I know the truth. Jesus is Lord, and that's all that matters.

 

[Southern Gent]

Yes, I was making an analogy about how it is improper to make insulting comments about other people. I have not argued with you, nor have I asked you to defend your beliefs. I am a believer, so I think I am within the rules of the forum. All I am requesting, again, is that you choose your words carefully and perhaps try not to utilize inappropriate labels. You say that you would not go to another forum and post there, but I would be willing to bet that you would if someone called you a deplorable name or tried to say that you are evil. Just, please, show some common courtesy - especially after it's been pointed out to you.

Don't expect anyone here to compromise the word of God for feelings or what is felt to be common courtesy. Someone used the word "satan worshiper" which is probably not the best choice of words. It was then changed to a Biblical term "child of Satan". Again this was not good enough. It has been tried time and time again to show a Biblical point of only two options. Until one comes to terms with those options the conversation is futile. The Bible clearly uses "child of Satan" within the context given. If you are asking Christians to not call Bible things by Bible names then you are asking to compromise. Soon the word "sinner" and "sin" will be offensive and done away as well. Perhaps the word "Bible" or "God" will be considered offensive and done away also?
You said "especially after it has been pointed out to you". The truth of the Gospel has been "pointed out" to several who have entered this forum. Most would rather complain about what "someone" said about them rather than change what God thinks of them. We didn't write the book. God has called them sinners, God has called them children of Satan. I would suggest taking the issue to the one who said it.

 

[LisaLisa]

What does Jesus say should be done with satan worshipers?

He says they should repent, convert and worship the only real and Living God.

What happens to them in the bible?

If they do not repent and worship the real God, they go to hell when they die.

What should we do with them today?

Nothing, it's not our place to do anything to them except to share the message of salvation with them so hopefully they will repent. Other then that, we just wait for Jesus to come back because Jesus is the judge.

 

[LisaLisa]

Don't expect anyone here to compromise the word of God for feelings or what is felt to be common courtesy. Someone used the word "satan worshiper" which is probably not the best choice of words. It was then changed to a Biblical term "child of Satan". Again this was not good enough. It has been tried time and time again to show a Biblical point of only two options. Until one comes to terms with those options the conversation is futile. The Bible clearly uses "child of Satan" within the context given. If you are asking Christians to not call Bible things by Bible names then you are asking to compromise. Soon the word "sinner" and "sin" will be offensive and done away as well. Perhaps the word "Bible" or "God" will be considered offensive and done away also?
You said "especially after it has been pointed out to you". The truth of the Gospel has been "pointed out" to several who have entered this forum. Most would rather complain about what "someone" said about them rather than change what God thinks of them. We didn't write the book. God has called them sinners, God has called them children of Satan. I would suggest taking the issue to the one who said it.

AMEN! Perfect summary!

 

[trukinlady]

Yes, I was making an analogy about how it is improper to make insulting comments about other people. I have not argued with you, nor have I asked you to defend your beliefs. I am a believer, so I think I am within the rules of the forum. All I am requesting, again, is that you choose your words carefully and perhaps try not to utilize inappropriate labels.

You say that you would not go to another forum and post there, but I would be willing to bet that you would if someone called you a deplorable name or tried to say that you are evil.

Just, please, show some common courtesy - especially after it's been pointed out to you.

Please visit my profile to see all the posts I have made. You will not find any "inappropriate labels". I was reiterating the rules of this forum.

You would lose your bet. I frankly do not care if someone calls me names. I've been called names all of my life because of my handicap. But, it is common courtesy not to go to someone else's "house" and insult them, or disparage their beliefs. I have not done so.

I believe I have shown common courtesy.


Well said SG! You too Lisa! Now that I've read the new posts.

 

[lmrasch]

There have been many nasty comments/labels referring to Christians in the Outside forum, heck...I've said a few things myself in my yesteryears.

I don't believe that I have ever in my 30 years as a Christian called Athiests Satan worshippers and don't feel the need to even look at them in that light. I don't recall even hearing that being preached from the pulpit for the last 30 years in any of the churches I've attended. I look at every person alive as a potential brother and sister in the Lord, yes...even those that openly profess to worship Satan and the radical Muslims that want to slaughter the embiciles. Satan is not the end all, be all...God IS!

Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament was used as an instrument of Satan to slaughter thousands of Christians before his conversion, but now because of his faithfulness and relationship with God he has led so many lost people to the Lord we cannot even count the number.

Christians can even be put into the category of participating in Satan's ploys when they choose to go against what God has spoken to them to do, that is sin.

In Colossians 3, greed is defined as idolatry...which is worship...and not worship of God... If greed brings any worship...it brings it to the one in which greed originated, which was Satan...thus being greedy is doing the works of Satan. The hissing so to speak in the ear...the "I've gotta have that...I must, no matter what, get that...I will lie, cheat and steal to get it...these are all whispers from our human nature, appealing to the flesh rather than to God. So then, satisfying the flesh is worship of self and worship of self was first acted upon by Satan.

Sin is not from God, there is no sin in him. Sin originated with Adam and Eve, orchestrated by Satan who told Eve that if she ate of the fruit, she would be like God, her desire to be like God is what got her into trouble. Adam and Eve simply fell for Satan's ploy because they refused to trust in the Creator and instead listened to a creature created by God....Satan employed his best weapon, GREED! Greed to be like God. So, when we as Christians act greedily we are actively participating in sin, thus worshipping or giving reverence to Satan who is the father of lies.

From my viewpoint this issue is not about Athiests vs. Christians...this issue is about all of our condition without Christ. Without him we are dead in our sins and actively participating in the plan of Satan. His plan is to steal, kill and destroy, Jesus' plan is to make alive.

I simply choose to follow the One who makes alive and recognize that without him and what he did for me at Calvary that I would still be where I was 30 years ago....hopeless, faithless, frustrated and utterly LOST!

 

[blondeambition3]

Originally Posted by Southern Gent
Don't expect anyone here to compromise the word of God for feelings or what is felt to be common courtesy. Someone used the word "satan worshiper" which is probably not the best choice of words. It was then changed to a Biblical term "child of Satan". Again this was not good enough. It has been tried time and time again to show a Biblical point of only two options. Until one comes to terms with those options the conversation is futile. The Bible clearly uses "child of Satan" within the context given. If you are asking Christians to not call Bible things by Bible names then you are asking to compromise. Soon the word "sinner" and "sin" will be offensive and done away as well. Perhaps the word "Bible" or "God" will be considered offensive and done away also?
You said "especially after it has been pointed out to you". The truth of the Gospel has been "pointed out" to several who have entered this forum. Most would rather complain about what "someone" said about them rather than change what God thinks of them. We didn't write the book. God has called them sinners, God has called them children of Satan. I would suggest taking the issue to the one who said it.

AMEN! Perfect summary!

Absolutely perfect summary

 

[blondeambition3]

There have been many nasty comments/labels referring to Christians in the Outside forum, heck...I've said a few things myself in my yesteryears.

I don't believe that I have ever in my 30 years as a Christian called Athiests Satan worshippers and don't feel the need to even look at them in that light. I don't recall even hearing that being preached from the pulpit for the last 30 years in any of the churches I've attended. I look at every person alive as a potential brother and sister in the Lord, yes...even those that openly profess to worship Satan and the radical Muslims that want to slaughter the embiciles. Satan is not the end all, be all...God IS!

Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament was used as an instrument of Satan to slaughter thousands of Christians before his conversion, but now because of his faithfulness and relationship with God he has led so many lost people to the Lord we cannot even count the number.

Christians can even be put into the category of participating in Satan's ploys when they choose to go against what God has spoken to them to do, that is sin.

In Colossians 3, greed is defined as idolatry...which is worship...and not worship of God... If greed brings any worship...it brings it to the one in which greed originated, which was Satan...thus being greedy is doing the works of Satan. The hissing so to speak in the ear...the "I've gotta have that...I must, no matter what, get that...I will lie, cheat and steal to get it...these are all whispers from our human nature, appealing to the flesh rather than to God. So then, satisfying the flesh is worship of self and worship of self was first acted upon by Satan.

Sin is not from God, there is no sin in him. Sin originated with Adam and Eve, orchestrated by Satan who told Eve that if she ate of the fruit, she would be like God, her desire to be like God is what got her into trouble. Adam and Eve simply fell for Satan's ploy because they refused to trust in the Creator and instead listened to a creature created by God....Satan employed his best weapon, GREED! Greed to be like God. So, when we as Christians act greedily we are actively participating in sin, thus worshipping or giving reverence to Satan who is the father of lies.

From my viewpoint this issue is not about Athiests vs. Christians...this issue is about all of our condition without Christ. Without him we are dead in our sins and actively participating in the plan of Satan. His plan is to steal, kill and destroy, Jesus' plan is to make alive.

I simply choose to follow the One who makes alive and recognize that without him and what he did for me at Calvary that I would still be where I was 30 years ago....hopeless, faithless, frustrated and utterly LOST!

Amen & Amen!!!!!

 

[blondeambition3]

Nothing, it's not our place to do anything to them except to share the message of salvation with them so hopefully they will repent. Other then that, we just wait for Jesus to come back because Jesus is the judge.

This is our great commission...

 

[blondeambition3]

Originally Posted by capecodjim
Um, Why can't you just end your statement where I did? What about religious freedoms and tolerance? This is America where people are free to have their own beliefs.

I support religious freedom. If it were not for religious freedom, I too would not be able to openly worship. I also support tolerance for other's beliefs. I don't go around killing non-christians, or saying that they don't have the right to believe what they want to believe. They absolutely do have that right, and that's the way that it should be. But, on the flip side, I also have that right too. I have the right to believe what I believe, and as long as I'm not involved in illegal activities in practicing my beliefs, or running around committing crimes because of my beliefs, then I am just like every other american. I tolerate them, they should tolerate me. Goes both ways. I refuse to change my beliefs because they offend some people, that would not be religious freedom for me.

I respect your beliefs and am trying to learn.

I'm not sure how to reconcile this with what some muslims believe... that the koran says all must be converted to worship allah or they are infidels which must be made slaves or killed. This is more drastic than what I've seen here but I'm sure anyone could find (or discern) places in the bible to justify killing anti-christs (or incest or anything you wanted to justify if you don't need specifics).

How much of a leap is that? All non-believers are anti-christ and satan worshipers. God wants the world rid of satan and his followers..... right?

"Only YOU can decide your own fate. I hope you make the right decision for your own sake. "

There is never any justification for any christian to hurt another person, unless it's self defense, like someone broke into my home and is trying to kill me. Christians as a group, teach and practice peace, and do not advocate the extermination of anyone, at all, for any reason.

As far as muslims are concerned, there are radical muslim groups out there that do advocate killing people because of their religion, and they actually do it. But, the majority of muslims don't do this kind of thing. But, regardless, muslims and christians are not on the same page as far as religion is concerned. Muslims reject Jesus, and Jesus is the foundation for Christians, so these 2 religions are not even closely related.

It's that mexican drug gang bullying tactics. Only the villagers can decide when the gangs ask... they better give the right answer or they'll be seeing their maker soon than they wished..... I don't undertsand why god uses scare tactics instead of love and compassion... well he uses that to but sends you to hell and eternal damnation if you don't do what he says.

God does not use scare tactics, Jesus didn't while He was on earth. Jesus spoke mostly of love, compassion, goodness, how to be a righteous person, and salvation only comes from Him because He was the messiah. But, Jesus did speak of hell, the place for the dammed.

The Bible says that God loved the world so much that He sent His son to be a sacrifice for our sins. He made a provision to reconcile humanity to Him. If people accept this Holy provision, then they are forgiven for their sins, they are made clean and can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven and receive eternal life.

If you do not accept His Holy provision, you will be held accountable for your sins, and there is no forgiveness other then through Jesus. If you reject Him, you also reject His provision for your sins. A person that is unrepentant, and full of sin, can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Heaven is a Holy place where God Himself lives. God has requirements, He is Holy. What is Holy can't live with what is unholy. It's not even possible. Darkness can't live in the presence of the light. For this reason, those who die in an unrepentant state, can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Hell is outside the Kingdom of Heaven, and that is where satan, his demons, and others exist. They torment eachother because they are full of hate and evil. That's why they are there in the first place. They love what is bad, and hate what is good.

God does not want anyone to go there, it hurts Him deeply when anyone rejects His Holy and perfect provision. He is painfully aware of every single person that ends up there, and He suffers because of it. Yet, He is Holy and Righteous, and He has laws and requirements, He is God. He has standards that He upholds. Does not mean that He does not love you, because nothing could be further from the truth. He loved you so much that He came to earth and suffered on a cross so that you would never have to go there.

But, it's a choice you have to make. He will not force you to love or worship Him. He created you with free will so that you have the right to make the choice yourself. He only wants those who want to worship Him, He did not create a bunch of robots, we were created in His image, with free will.

To not be for something is not to be against it.

Sometimes it is, especially when there are only 2 options.

If I don't like Chinese food, that doesn't mean I like Italian food. If I don't like candy, it doesn't mean I love fruit...

Is it a part of religion to believe you're right and everyone else or anyone with different thoughts is a sinner or infidel or satan worshiper?

Everybody is a sinner. When you get right down to it, we are all not worthy of God's great blessings in Heaven because we all sin and all fall short every single day. The only difference is that Christians accept the Messiah and His covering for their sins, while other religions do not.

What happened to live and let live? I bet I could find something to justify that attitude in the bible....

My answers in RED below.


We do believe in live and let live. Like I said earlier, I fully support a person's religous freedoms. I don't run around trying to stamp out other religions. It's a choice, and everyone has a God given right to make that choice for themselves. I support that choice as well. But, I believe what the Bible says, and it says that there is only one way to heaven, and that is through the sacrifice of Jesus. So, in the end, I support a person's right to choose their own fate, but I will not lie to people and tell them that they are going to heaven no matter what they believe, because that's not what the Bible says, and I wouldn't be doing them any favors by lying to them and as a Christian I'm not allowed to lie anyway.

Jesus didn't come to earth, suffer a horrible death, to save people from going to heaven. Think about it.

This is the beautiful 'truth' Amen!

 

[LisaLisa]

There have been many nasty comments/labels referring to Christians in the Outside forum, heck...I've said a few things myself in my yesteryears.

I don't believe that I have ever in my 30 years as a Christian called Athiests Satan worshippers and don't feel the need to even look at them in that light. I don't recall even hearing that being preached from the pulpit for the last 30 years in any of the churches I've attended. I look at every person alive as a potential brother and sister in the Lord, yes...even those that openly profess to worship Satan and the radical Muslims that want to slaughter the embiciles. Satan is not the end all, be all...God IS!

Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament was used as an instrument of Satan to slaughter thousands of Christians before his conversion, but now because of his faithfulness and relationship with God he has led so many lost people to the Lord we cannot even count the number.

Christians can even be put into the category of participating in Satan's ploys when they choose to go against what God has spoken to them to do, that is sin.

In Colossians 3, greed is defined as idolatry...which is worship...and not worship of God... If greed brings any worship...it brings it to the one in which greed originated, which was Satan...thus being greedy is doing the works of Satan. The hissing so to speak in the ear...the "I've gotta have that...I must, no matter what, get that...I will lie, cheat and steal to get it...these are all whispers from our human nature, appealing to the flesh rather than to God. So then, satisfying the flesh is worship of self and worship of self was first acted upon by Satan.

Sin is not from God, there is no sin in him. Sin originated with Adam and Eve, orchestrated by Satan who told Eve that if she ate of the fruit, she would be like God, her desire to be like God is what got her into trouble. Adam and Eve simply fell for Satan's ploy because they refused to trust in the Creator and instead listened to a creature created by God....Satan employed his best weapon, GREED! Greed to be like God. So, when we as Christians act greedily we are actively participating in sin, thus worshipping or giving reverence to Satan who is the father of lies.

From my viewpoint this issue is not about Athiests vs. Christians...this issue is about all of our condition without Christ. Without him we are dead in our sins and actively participating in the plan of Satan. His plan is to steal, kill and destroy, Jesus' plan is to make alive.

I simply choose to follow the One who makes alive and recognize that without him and what he did for me at Calvary that I would still be where I was 30 years ago....hopeless, faithless, frustrated and utterly LOST!

Beautiful post, you always have a great way with words! AMEN!

 

[Southern Gent]

Beautiful post, you always have a great way with words! AMEN!

Yes........

 

[LisaLisa]

I think that sometimes unbelievers look at us and they think that we believe that we are better people then they are. That is simply NOT TRUE. I don't think that there is one mature christian alive, notice I said mature christian, that really believes that they are better then an unbeliever. I think this is the mistake that alot of people make in believing that we think that.

We are not "better" then an unbeliever, we sin just the same as everyone else. There are some unbelievers that probably sin less then I do! That's the truth! I am no angel, and don't claim to be. I try to be the best person that I can be, but I fail miserably every single day. That's just the real deal, no candy coating. Jesus is working in my life, changing me into the person that I should be, but it doesnt' come easy. I'm alot better then before, but still fall very short in many aspects.

So, no, I"m no "better" then an unbeliever. I don't do more good things then some, and I probably sin more then some. But here is the difference: I recognized that I suck. I know that I suck, and I don't think that I'm anything special. I recognize that next to Jesus, I'm a turd, and He's the Lord, perfect, glorified, and the very definition of love and goodness.

Knowing my pathetic sinful state, compared to His Holy Perfection, I asked for forgiveness for my wrong doings. I am humble before Him, I give all glory and honor to Him, I acknowledge His Perfection, His Power, His Holyness, and I submit to His will and beg forgiveness so that I might be saved through His sacrifice and share a place in His Holy Kingdom. He is my Lord and my God.

Do you understand what I"m saying here? This is the difference. It's not that I deserve to go to heaven, I DON"T! It is only through His Holy Sacrifice that I am saved, because I believe in Him, not by anything that I can do myself. If it were not for Jesus, and His mercy in coming here to die for me, I would be heading straight for hell. That's the truth.

 

[eHuman]

Pretty direct and to the point. Not a lot of wiggle room on this one.

I agree, there isn't any wiggle room. But that explanation is the "gist" of scripture.

 

[capecodjim]

My answers in RED below.




We do believe in live and let live. Like I said earlier, I fully support a person's religous freedoms. I don't run around trying to stamp out other religions. It's a choice, and everyone has a God given right to make that choice for themselves. I support that choice as well. But, I believe what the Bible says, and it says that there is only one way to heaven, and that is through the sacrifice of Jesus. So, in the end, I support a person's right to choose their own fate, but I will not lie to people and tell them that they are going to heaven no matter what they believe, because that's not what the Bible says, and I wouldn't be doing them any favors by lying to them and as a Christian I'm not allowed to lie anyway.

Jesus didn't come to earth, suffer a horrible death, to save people from going to heaven. Think about it.

I appreciate your well reasoned and thought out post. Thank you! And double thank you for not referencing the "S" word regarding people of other beliefs. Your clear and concise thoughts give me a greater understanding and respect.

"Jesus didn't come to earth, suffer a horrible death, to save people from going to heaven. Think about it."

I've been thinking about it..... If that's the case why is there so much suffering and so many things wrong in the world and so much injustice? I thought Jesus paid that debt already.

I understand about good vs evil but if god loves man so much why doesn't he go a little easier on us? It's certainly within his power to solve the world ills yet he lets (or makes?) the innocent suffer.

Ya, I know.... God blames us for Adam and "original sin" but he created us and should have been familiar with and accepted our flaws instead of using them against us as a reason to punish us.

These questions are rhetorical and personal in nature and I'm not looking for anyone to give me the "answers" but all input on these issues are welcome. Not being able to resolve important issues makes it difficult to commit. I know about faith and the unknown and the mysteries but it all has to make some understandable sense if 100% is expected on my part. I can't do it on blind faith alone, why should I be expected to?... maybe one of my human flaws.

fwiw: These questions and thoughts aren't new to me. I've been exposed since birth and some questions are long standing. My family has heard mass in Aramaic for over 700 years.... and we still do at certain times. Their original church was in a cave because they had to worship Jesus in secrecy.

 

[LisaLisa]

I appreciate your well reasoned and thought out post. Thank you! And double thank you for not referencing the "S" word regarding people of other beliefs.

"Jesus didn't come to earth, suffer a horrible death, to save people from going to heaven. Think about it."

I've been thinking about it..... If that's the case why is there so much suffering and so many things wrong in the world and so much injustice? I thought Jesus paid that debt already.

I understand about good vs evil but if god loves man so much why doesn't he go a little easier on us? It's certainly within his power to solve the world ills yet he lets (or makes?) the innocent suffer.

Ya, I know.... God blames us for Adam and "original sin" but he created us and should have been familiar with and accepted our flaws instead of using them against us as a reason to punish us.

These questions are rhetorical and personal in nature and I'm not looking for anyone to give me the "answers" but all input on these issues are welcome. Not being able to resolve important issues makes it difficult to commit. I know about faith and the unknown and the mysteries but it all has to make some understandable sense if 100% is expected on my part. I can't do it on blind faith... maybe one of my human flaws.

fwiw: These questions and thoughts aren't new to me. I've been exposed since birth and some questions are long standing. My family has heard mass in Aramaic for over 700 years.... and we still do at certain times. Their original church was in a cave because they had to worship Jesus in secrecy.


Your clear and concise thoughts give me a greater understanding and respect.

The suffering that you see, all over the world, is not caused by God, it's caused by Satan. If everyone followed God's laws, and Jesus's example, you would not see the terrible things in the world that you see now. The terrible condition of mankind is due to Satan, and man's evil tendencies.

Jesus caused nobody to suffer, but he saw and taught that satan and his demons, and mankind's weakness to sin, is what causes it.......the weakness and disobedience to God started in the garden of eden. It's been downhill ever since.

But here is the good part, it's not going to last forever. God has a set time, where He will come and destroy all of the evil. He gave many signs to watch for, and I believe those signs are happening now. He will not allow this to continue forever, the Bible promises us this. Many many believers all over the world are having dreams and visions about His return, which I believe is soon.

Jesus paid the price for our sin, so that those who accept His gift of salvation will not suffer destruction when He comes, and won't suffer eternity outside his Heavenly Kingdom. Many do not accept this gift. But how much easier could He possibly make it for us, and still hold to His Holy Standards of Righteousness? All you have to do is believe, repent, and love Him.

I can't think of an easier way then that.

 

[chimney55]

I can't believe this argument has gone on for 26 pages. I, as a mature Christian, do NOT believe (or call) non-Christians or atheists Satan worshipers. But as been said before, there are only there are only 2 options. In the words of Jesus in Matthew 12:30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Not wanting to make a decision is not the same thing as being "with" Him.

 

[lmrasch]

I think that sometimes unbelievers look at us and they think that we believe that we are better people then they are. That is simply NOT TRUE. I don't think that there is one mature christian alive, notice I said mature christian, that really believes that they are better then an unbeliever. I think this is the mistake that alot of people make in believing that we think that.

We are not "better" then an unbeliever, we sin just the same as everyone else. There are some unbelievers that probably sin less then I do! That's the truth! I am no angel, and don't claim to be. I try to be the best person that I can be, but I fail miserably every single day. That's just the real deal, no candy coating. Jesus is working in my life, changing me into the person that I should be, but it doesnt' come easy. I'm alot better then before, but still fall very short in many aspects.

So, no, I"m no "better" then an unbeliever. I don't do more good things then some, and I probably sin more then some. But here is the difference: I recognized that I suck. I know that I suck, and I don't think that I'm anything special. I recognize that next to Jesus, I'm a turd, and He's the Lord, perfect, glorified, and the very definition of love and goodness.

Knowing my pathetic sinful state, compared to His Holy Perfection, I asked for forgiveness for my wrong doings. I am humble before Him, I give all glory and honor to Him, I acknowledge His Perfection, His Power, His Holyness, and I submit to His will and beg forgiveness so that I might be saved through His sacrifice and share a place in His Holy Kingdom. He is my Lord and my God.

Do you understand what I"m saying here? This is the difference. It's not that I deserve to go to heaven, I DON"T! It is only through His Holy Sacrifice that I am saved, because I believe in Him, not by anything that I can do myself. If it were not for Jesus, and His mercy in coming here to die for me, I would be heading straight for hell. That's the truth.

Well said Lisa....from one turd to another .