Athiest Converts After Seeing a Demon on His Shoulder!

[eHuman]

A real Atheist doesn't even believe in Satan, to them it's all imaginary stuff like fairies and unicorns. Your argument here isn't valid anyway, this is a Christian sub-forum. If you want to discuss God, feel free to stay and discuss. If you just want to argue, feel free to leave.

I had to LOL at that. Not to be disrespectful, it just made me laugh because I was contemplating posting something similar.
Some people (not all) are getting upset because the Bible (which they don't believe in) outlines that if they don't belong to God (who they don't believe in) then they by default "worship" Satan (whom they also don't believe in).

If it is all an urban legend or myth,or fairy tale and it isn't true, then why get so upset and spun up???
Would they also get upset if I asked them if they were 4' 11"?

(Well I understand some would as a matter of fact...)

 

[capecodjim]

..... (cut)

From my viewpoint this issue is not about Athiests vs. Christians...this issue is about all of our condition without Christ. Without him we are dead in our sins and actively participating in the plan of Satan. His plan is to steal, kill and destroy, Jesus' plan is to make alive.

I simply choose to follow the One who makes alive and recognize that without him and what he did for me at Calvary that I would still be where I was 30 years ago....hopeless, faithless, frustrated and utterly LOST!

Great post! Thanks!

I think that sometimes unbelievers look at us and they think that we believe that we are better people then they are. That is simply NOT TRUE. I don't think that there is one mature christian alive, notice I said mature christian, that really believes that they are better then an unbeliever. I think this is the mistake that alot of people make in believing that we think that.

We are not "better" then an unbeliever, we sin just the same as everyone else. There are some unbelievers that probably sin less then I do! That's the truth! I am no angel, and don't claim to be. I try to be the best person that I can be, but I fail miserably every single day. That's just the real deal, no candy coating. Jesus is working in my life, changing me into the person that I should be, but it doesnt' come easy. I'm alot better then before, but still fall very short in many aspects.

So, no, I"m no "better" then an unbeliever. I don't do more good things then some, and I probably sin more then some. But here is the difference: I recognized that I suck. I know that I suck, and I don't think that I'm anything special. I recognize that next to Jesus, I'm a turd, and He's the Lord, perfect, glorified, and the very definition of love and goodness.

Knowing my pathetic sinful state, compared to His Holy Perfection, I asked for forgiveness for my wrong doings. I am humble before Him, I give all glory and honor to Him, I acknowledge His Perfection, His Power, His Holyness, and I submit to His will and beg forgiveness so that I might be saved through His sacrifice and share a place in His Holy Kingdom. He is my Lord and my God.

Do you understand what I"m saying here? This is the difference. It's not that I deserve to go to heaven, I DON"T! It is only through His Holy Sacrifice that I am saved, because I believe in Him, not by anything that I can do myself. If it were not for Jesus, and His mercy in coming here to die for me, I would be heading straight for hell. That's the truth.

Those feeling by some might have had something do with the earlier posts referencing non-believers as satin worshipers... that may have ruffled a few feathers.....

 

[LisaLisa]

well said lisa....from one turd to another .

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LisaLisa]

I had to LOL at that. Not to be disrespectful, it just made me laugh because I was contemplating posting something similar.
Some people (not all) are getting upset because the Bible (which they don't believe in) outlines that if they don't belong to God (who they don't believe in) then they by default "worship" Satan (whom they also don't believe in).

If it is all an urban legend or myth,or fairy tale and it isn't true, then why get so upset and spun up???
Would they also get upset if I asked them if they were 4' 11"?

(Well I understand some would as a matter of fact...)

LOL.......yea. One of my best friends is a hard core atheist. She would LOL if I called her a "satan worshiper". She would think that's the funniest thing she's ever heard because to her, satan is about as real as the easter bunny. Kinda ironic when you think about it.

 

[chimney55]

I've been thinking about it..... If that's the case why is there so much suffering and so many things wrong in the world and so much injustice? I thought Jesus paid that debt already.

There's so much suffering in the world because man (mankind) lives in it. But, generally, man doesn't want to accept responsibility for the mess--he'd rather blame God. Jesus paid the debt for our sins, but He didn't change us into something other else. We are all sinners, but not because we sin. We sin, because we are sinners--that's our "natural state".
Think about it, when a child is small, do you have to teach them to lie, or cheat, or talk back to you, etc? They are doing what comes naturally.

I understand about good vs evil but if god loves man so much why doesn't he go a little easier on us? It's certainly within his power to solve the world ills yet he lets (or makes?) the innocent suffer.

Let's see...the creator of heaven and earth created all the animals and man as well living in a paradise. At the time there was only ONE rule to follow--don't eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And man couldn't follow that one simple rule! But God knew it would happen, and so after telling the people through His word what He was planning on doing, He laid aside His glory and "dressed up" in a human suit, came to earth and suffered through the painful agony of being the sacrifice for OUR sins. Still, you think that He should go "easier on humans". BTW, God does not make children suffer, man does. Place blame where blame is due.

Ya, I know.... God blames us for Adam and "original sin" but he created us and should have been familiar with and accepted our flaws instead of using them against us as a reason to punish us.

Why should He accept our flaws? He has already made atonement for the sins of those who are willing to admit that they are sinners in need of a savior. And in your posts, you keep coming up with this "we're being punished for Adam's sin" thing. There was only one rule at the time. Suppose Adam didn't eat of the fruit. Suppose no one ate of the fruit amongst his family. How long do you think that it would have been before someone ate the fruit? If you were shown into someone's orchard and told that you could have fruit from any tree except the one in the middle, would you honestly follow it if you thought that no one was watching? What about your father, or grandfather, etc.

As far as being "punished" for someone's sin, the God of the Bible offers two options. Spend eternity with Him, or spend eternity outside of His presences. If you're not happy with Him now, what makes you think that you'll be happy with Him for eternity. People who choose to go their own way, are saying that they are not interested in spending eternity with the one who inspired the Bible. What we call "hell" is as far away from that God that they can possibly get. It's a person's choice. Eternity with God, or not. But, like I said, if you're not happy with Him now, what makes you think that you'll be happy with Him for eternity?

 

[eHuman]

Soon the word "sinner" and "sin" will be offensive and done away as well. Perhaps the word "Bible" or "God" will be considered offensive and done away also?

Can you say "seeker friendly"?

 

[Southern Gent]

Can you say "seeker friendly"?

Don't even like the tone of that.

 

[eHuman]

That phrase is not on my list of liked things.

 

[capecodjim]

There's so much suffering in the world because man (mankind) lives in it. But, generally, man doesn't want to accept responsibility for the mess--he'd rather blame God. Jesus paid the debt for our sins, but He didn't change us into something other else. We are all sinners, but not because we sin. We sin, because we are sinners--that's our "natural state".
Think about it, when a child is small, do you have to teach them to lie, or cheat, or talk back to you, etc? They are doing what comes naturally.

I'm not so sure about that... kids in remote jungle tribes don't lie, cheat or steal. Their languages don't even have words for those acts. Kids learn from us.


Let's see...the creator of heaven and earth created all the animals and man as well living in a paradise. At the time there was only ONE rule to follow--don't eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And man couldn't follow that one simple rule! But God knew it would happen, and so after telling the people through His word what He was planning on doing, He laid aside His glory and "dressed up" in a human suit, came to earth and suffered through the painful agony of being the sacrifice for OUR sins. Still, you think that He should go "easier on humans". BTW, God does not make children suffer, man does. Place blame where blame is due.

Man isn't responsible for the suffering of little kids with cancer or leukemia. Have they sinned? What did they do wrong or to offend anyone? Even people who do the best they can to live pure and simple.. those who pray and believe... they still suffer as much as the next guy. Seems like god just turns a blind eye to even the most innocent and deserving.



Why should He accept our flaws? He has already made atonement for the sins of those who are willing to admit that they are sinners in need of a savior. And in your posts, you keep coming up with this "we're being punished for Adam's sin" thing. There was only one rule at the time. Suppose Adam didn't eat of the fruit. Suppose no one ate of the fruit amongst his family. How long do you think that it would have been before someone ate the fruit? If you were shown into someone's orchard and told that you could have fruit from any tree except the one in the middle, would you honestly follow it if you thought that no one was watching? What about your father, or grandfather, etc.

God should accept our flaws because he made us that way!! . Not to criticize but If he did a better job making us we wouldn't be flawed. It's no accident we're flawed... he made us flawed on purpose. He could have made us perfect but he made us with this flaw and then basically set a trap knowing this flaw existed. He set Adam up for defeat and failure. It was all within god's control, not Adam's. Adam only "sinned" because god literally made him. God built Adam as a sinner to start with and then is surprised and wrathful when Adam goes ahead and sins. God could have left that flaw out of his recipe but he decided not to. Adam never had a fair chance.

As far as being "punished" for someone's sin, the God of the Bible offers two options. Spend eternity with Him, or spend eternity outside of His presences. If you're not happy with Him now, what makes you think that you'll be happy with Him for eternity. People who choose to go their own way, are saying that they are not interested in spending eternity with the one who inspired the Bible. What we call "hell" is as far away from that God that they can possibly get. It's a person's choice. Eternity with God, or not. But, like I said, if you're not happy with Him now, what makes you think that you'll be happy with Him for eternity?

Thanks for adding that perspective about eternity. It sheds a new light on things....

 

[LisaLisa]

God should accept our flaws because he made us!! . Not to criticize but If he did a better job making us we wouldn't be flawed. It's no accident we're flawed... he made us flawed on purpose. He could have made us perfect but he made us with this flaw and then basically set a trap knowing this flaw existed. He set Adam up for defeat and failure. It was all within god's control, not Adam's. Adam only "sinned" because god literally made him. God built Adam as a sinner to start with and then is surprised and wrathful when Adam sins. God could have left that flaw out of his recipe but he decided not to. Adam never had a fair chance.

Oh boy........you're sitting there breathing oxygen, which God gave you. You ate and drank today, God gave you that too. You will sleep tonight.....God also gave you that. Maybe yesterday you laughed, listened to music, or went to the park. God gave you that also. You're typing on your keyboard with your fingers, and using your brain to form what you want to say, God gave you your fingers and your brain, God gave you your whole freaking life and every good thing in it!

And yet, you're going to try and tell Him, the creator of the universe that you are a guest in, how you think that it should have been done? Seriously? Do you have any idea of the magnitude of God? The power He holds? How mighty and just He is? Can you comprehend it? Must not because if He was real to you, you wouldn't be saying these things.

I'm not trying to be mean, I"m just shocked sometimes how some people, the created, actually put themselves in the place of God, the ALMIGHTY CREATOR, and think that He did something wrong and they could have done a better job. Really, it's shocking. Sorry, I'm just stunned. Not that I haven't heard this before, but it's stunning every single time I hear it. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

 

[LisaLisa]

I"m sorry, I'm about to blow a gasket, (my sinful human nature, forgive me) so I'll just say goodnight and God bless.

 

[capecodjim]

Oh boy........you're sitting there breathing oxygen, which God gave you. You ate and drank today, God gave you that too. You will sleep tonight.....God also gave you that. Maybe yesterday you laughed, listened to music, or went to the park. God gave you that also. You're typing on your keyboard with your fingers, and using your brain to form what you want to say, God gave you your fingers and your brain, God gave you your whole freaking life and every good thing in it!

And yet, you're going to try and tell Him, the creator of the universe that you are a guest in, how you think that it should have been done? Seriously? Do you have any idea of the magnitude of God? The power He holds? How mighty and just He is? Can you comprehend it? Must not because if He was real to you, you wouldn't be saying these things.

I'm not trying to be mean, I"m just shocked sometimes how some people, the created, actually put themselves in the place of God, the ALMIGHTY CREATOR, and think that He did something wrong and they could have done a better job. Really, it's shocking. Sorry, I'm just stunned. Not that I haven't heard this before, but it's stunning every single time I hear it. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Someone who builds a house of cards with a flawed foundation shouldn't be surprised when it comes crashing down.

God could have made us 100% flawless as he did with so many things. He decided to go less than 100% when it came to making man. He put this flaw in us to sin and then tested Adam. Of course Adam sinned because god programmed him as a sinner when he was created. God left the job unfinished.

If I make a steel bar with a flaw or weakness I shouldn't be shocked when it caves in under stress testing right after manufacture. Just sayin'

edit: I don't mean to be ungrateful... I'm just trying to understand and reconcile my own feelings.

A chain is only as strong as the weakest link. God has the power to make a perfect chain yet he decided to put a weak link knowing there was a flaw. He could have fixed us anytime. He could right now but he won't.

Did god make a mistake when he made us or did he make us flawed on purpose?

 

[chimney55]

I'm not so sure about that... kids in remote jungle tribes don't lie, cheat or steal. Their languages don't even have words for those acts. Kids learn from us.

I'm not sure about that. So, you're omniscient as well as unfamiliar with children? Maybe they don't have words for those things because they aren't considered negative where they are from. And I thought that I understood that you have a child (maybe I misread or am confusing you with someone else). Anyone who is around children know that if confronted by something they've done will lie. Even if the only words that they can say is "no" or it wasn't me. Do you think that the parents consciously taught their children to lie? Have you ever spent time with a group of preschool children? They have no concept of "mine" or "theirs". If they have it in their hands, as far as they're concerned it's "mine" and will hit the other child with it if necessary to prove their point. (Do you think that their parents or the teacher taught them that behavior?) If someone asks if the child "stole" the toy, his answer will probably be "No, he gave it to me.)

Man isn't responsible for the suffering of little kids with cancer or leukemia. Have they sinned? What did they do wrong or to offend anyone? Even people who do the best they can to live pure and simple.. those who pray and believe... they still suffer as much as the next guy. Seems like god just turns a blind eye to even the most innocent and deserving.

At the same time that man fell, the earth was cursed. Adam had been told that it would happen. And since that time, creation groans for it's redemption from the curse brought on it by man. Disease and death came into the world at that time. Children don't get cancer or whatever because God gave it to them. They have it because they live in a world that is inhabited (and polluted) by man (for his "conveniences" I might add.) And you're right. Those who "pray and believe" suffer just as much as those who don't. We are all living in the same "fallen world" where it rains on the just and unjust alike. But, He has promised a time when the world won't be like this anymore.

God should accept our flaws because he made us that way!! . Not to criticize but If he did a better job making us we wouldn't be flawed. It's no accident we're flawed... he made us flawed on purpose. He could have made us perfect but he made us with this flaw and then basically set a trap knowing this flaw existed. He set Adam up for defeat and failure. It was all within god's control, not Adam's. Adam only "sinned" because god literally made him. God built Adam as a sinner to start with and then is surprised and wrathful when Adam goes ahead and sins. God could have left that flaw out of his recipe but he decided not to. Adam never had a fair chance.

God created man perfectly, not flawed---unless you consider being able to do what you want "flawed". Funny, most people consider that to be a fundamental "right". God created both men and angels differently from all other creatures. He gave them the ability to chose whether or not they wanted to love Him and follow Him. Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels chose to rebel. He knew what Adam's choice would be as well. What was He supposed to do? Make Adam (and the rest of us) robots who couldn't chose to do what they wanted?

Thanks for adding that perspective about eternity. It sheds a new light on things....

You're welcome.

 

[capecodjim]

I'm not sure about that. So, you're omniscient as well as unfamiliar with children? Maybe they don't have words for those things because they aren't considered negative where they are from. And I thought that I understood that you have a child (maybe I misread or am confusing you with someone else). Anyone who is around children know that if confronted by something they've done will lie. Even if the only words that they can say is "no" or it wasn't me. Do you think that the parents consciously taught their children to lie? Have you ever spent time with a group of preschool children? They have no concept of "mine" or "theirs". If they have it in their hands, as far as they're concerned it's "mine" and will hit the other child with it if necessary to prove their point. (Do you think that their parents or the teacher taught them that behavior?) If someone asks if the child "stole" the toy, his answer will probably be "No, he gave it to me.)




At the same time that man fell, the earth was cursed. Adam had been told that it would happen. And since that time, creation groans for it's redemption from the curse brought on it by man. Disease and death came into the world at that time. Children don't get cancer or whatever because God gave it to them. They have it because they live in a world that is inhabited (and polluted) by man (for his "conveniences" I might add.) And you're right. Those who "pray and believe" suffer just as much as those who don't. We are all living in the same "fallen world" where it rains on the just and unjust alike. But, He has promised a time when the world won't be like this anymore.



God created man perfectly, not flawed---unless you consider being able to do what you want "flawed". Funny, most people consider that to be a fundamental "right". God created both men and angels differently from all other creatures. He gave them the ability to chose whether or not they wanted to love Him and follow Him. Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels chose to rebel. He knew what Adam's choice would be as well. What was He supposed to do? Make Adam (and the rest of us) robots who couldn't chose to do what they wanted?



You're welcome.

You're missing my point. Please see the edit at the bottom of the post.

If god made us perfectly then why are we sinners? Because we decided to sin? Why did god give us that choice? That's not a perfect creation... one that can decide to sin....

If god knows we're not robots and didn't want us to be, then why punish when we do what he programmed us to do?

It's like making a model plane and leaving the rudder off on purpose and then being upset when it crashes.

He built the flaw into us and then is upset to see we're flawed. He could have programmed us to not lie, cheat, steal or sin and we'd still have choices and freedoms and not be robots...

Either god put our flaws there on purpose or he made a mistake when he made us. You can't have it both ways... and I don't think god makes mistakes.

 

[Southern Gent]

 

[capecodjim]

Funny SG!!!

 

[blondeambition3]

Originally Posted by LisaLisa
I think that sometimes unbelievers look at us and they think that we believe that we are better people then they are. That is simply NOT TRUE. I don't think that there is one mature christian alive, notice I said mature christian, that really believes that they are better then an unbeliever. I think this is the mistake that alot of people make in believing that we think that.

We are not "better" then an unbeliever, we sin just the same as everyone else. There are some unbelievers that probably sin less then I do! That's the truth! I am no angel, and don't claim to be. I try to be the best person that I can be, but I fail miserably every single day. That's just the real deal, no candy coating. Jesus is working in my life, changing me into the person that I should be, but it doesnt' come easy. I'm alot better then before, but still fall very short in many aspects.

So, no, I"m no "better" then an unbeliever. I don't do more good things then some, and I probably sin more then some. But here is the difference: I recognized that I suck. I know that I suck, and I don't think that I'm anything special. I recognize that next to Jesus, I'm a turd, and He's the Lord, perfect, glorified, and the very definition of love and goodness.

Knowing my pathetic sinful state, compared to His Holy Perfection, I asked for forgiveness for my wrong doings. I am humble before Him, I give all glory and honor to Him, I acknowledge His Perfection, His Power, His Holyness, and I submit to His will and beg forgiveness so that I might be saved through His sacrifice and share a place in His Holy Kingdom. He is my Lord and my God.

Do you understand what I"m saying here? This is the difference. It's not that I deserve to go to heaven, I DON"T! It is only through His Holy Sacrifice that I am saved, because I believe in Him, not by anything that I can do myself. If it were not for Jesus, and His mercy in coming here to die for me, I would be heading straight for hell. That's the truth.

Well said Lisa....from one turd to another .

Truer words have never been spoken!
From a 'third' turd to the other turds...

Beautifully said Lisa.... what you wrote could be 'my' testimony in fact

 

[blondeambition3]

Me too SG! me too!

 

[Southern Gent]

You're missing my point. Please see the edit at the bottom of the post.

If god made us perfectly then why are we sinners? Because we decided to sin? Why did god give us that choice? That's not a perfect creation... one that can decide to sin....

If god knows we're not robots and didn't want us to be, then why punish when we do what he programmed us to do?

It's like making a model plane and leaving the rudder off on purpose and then being upset when it crashes.

He built the flaw into us and then is upset to see we're flawed. He could have programmed us to not lie, cheat, steal or sin and we'd still have choices and freedoms and not be robots...

Either god put our flaws there on purpose or he made a mistake when he made us. You can't have it both ways... and I don't think god makes mistakes.

What was really the fall of A&E? What was it that they really desired? What is the key that Satan offered them? Satan said "You can be like God". But we can not be like God. Why? Because we are not sovereign, we are created. Were A&E a flawed creation? No. They didn't become flawed until they wanted to be like God. What caused them to want to be like God? Could it have come from someone else who wanted to be like God? The temptation that Satan used was the same temptation that caused all his problems. Is it something God programmed in or was it something learned? Small children/babies can not define sin and are therefore held unaccountable should they die. Where does sin really come from in their lives? It is learned. The fact that A&E lived in the garden and communicated frequently with God gives us an indication that they were as babies in their knowledge of sin. Did they know not to eat the fruit? God told them not to eat...they were like babies and did not understand the consequences of their actions better yet they were lied to concerning the consequences.. Do you remember the devastation to your soul when sin became a part of your life? I do and i'd say you remember as well. You changed and not for the better. You lived in innocence but your eyes were opened in the same way as A&E. Job asked many questions of God. Why this and why that? God answered concerning His sovereignty. I'd love to know why, if God doesn't want Satan where He is..why in the world would He cast him down here to torment us? What answer could there possibly be? Are we pawns in another game or are we God's prized possession? He is God and I am not. I cannot comprehend His mind and can only understand His purpose in bits and pieces. He tells me "be still and know that I am God". This is the beginning of faith.

 

[chimney55]

You're missing my point. Please see the edit at the bottom of the post.

If god made us perfectly then why are we sinners? Because we decided to sin? Why did god give us that choice? That's not a perfect creation... one that can decide to sin....

If god knows we're not robots and didn't want us to be, then why punish when we do what he programmed us to do?

It's like making a model plane and leaving the rudder off on purpose and then being upset when it crashes.

He built the flaw into us and then is upset to see we're flawed. He could have programmed us to not lie, cheat, steal or sin and we'd still have choices and freedoms and not be robots...

Either god put our flaws there on purpose or he made a mistake when he made us. You can't have it both ways... and I don't think god makes mistakes.

You're missing MY point. You know I don't think that I've ever heard someone describe the ability to make choices regarding one's behavior, life choices, and future as a "flaw". It boils down to love. You don't force someone to love you. You hope they will, but if it's forced, it's not love. God will not force anyone to love Him. (If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. He's not going to force anyone to keep His commandments.) Now, God would be cruel indeed if He had done this without explaining the consequences beforehand---but He did. Adam knew beforehand what the consequences would be before he sinned. Just like He explained to each of us the consequences. Follow Him and spend eternity with Him. Or, don't follow Him, spend eternity outside of His presence. Free will is not a flaw. (Although many people would have preferred that God give them free will without giving it to someone else--such as Adam. ) As for "programming us" not to lie, cheat, steal, or sin, how would He know who really loved Him and who just loved Him because they had no choice?