Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[bluecat]

Ignorance is bliss.

I never been in a state of bliss. How is it treating you?

 

[skoony]

Its called living in a Society.. And, there actually are Laws against that kind of behavior. Protesting is fine, but there are laws governing that too.

i have seen the video. what laws where broken?
regards
mike

 

[imsoenthused]

First you have to distinguish between a knockoff(with out a label) and a counterfeit(with a label). Barring some really iconic shape(like a Coca-Cola bottle) a company is going to find it very difficult to prove malfeasance on the part of the maker or the seller without a label, and the burden to do so is entirely theirs. From a legal stand point, no one purchasing a knockoff has committed a crime, no one who has purchased a counterfeit item has committed a crime unless they live in France or Italy. The company making them might be depending on local regulations. The people selling them might be, again depending on local laws. If you would like for this to change, by all means get involved and try to get the government to enact a law that criminalizes my behavior. Once, such a law passes I will, as with any law, decide if I'm going to obey it or not. Until then, tough breaks, the authentic makers will just have to try to defend unregistered trademarks in our current court system, assuming there is even an eligible trademark on their product for them to defend.

 

[Circa Survivor]

First you have to distinguish between a knockoff(with out a label) and a counterfeit(with a label). Barring some really iconic shape(like a Coca-Cola bottle) a company is going to find it very difficult to prove malfeasance on the part of the maker or the seller without a label, and the burden to do so is entirely theirs. From a legal stand point, no one purchasing a knockoff has committed a crime, no one who has purchased a counterfeit item has committed a crime unless they live in France or Italy. The company making them might be depending on local regulations. The people selling them might be, again depending on local laws. If you would like for this to change, by all means get involved and try to get the government to enact a law that criminalizes my behavior. Once, such a law passes I will, as with any law, decide if I'm going to obey it or not. Until then, tough breaks, the authentic makers will just have to try to defend unregistered trademarks in our current court system, assuming there is even an eligible trademark on their product for them to defend.

Well said

 

[skoony]

They make DeLoreans because they BOUGHT THE COMPANY. They ARE DeLorean now.. Parts, tooling, and name.

they bought the rights to the name and tooling after Delorean was defunct.
my point was,why don't they just pay a licensing fee? they could still make it cheaper.
it would be legit and,good for us consumers to have a little price competition.

i am not saying its workable. just saying.

regards
mike

 

[edyle]

Here is an example on the topic:

And here's a bit about the BMW case:
BMW loses court battle to chinese X5 clone

Back in 2007, the Frankfurt Auto Show brought us a legal war between BMW and the chinese carmakers, Shuanghuan. The CEO car built by the chinese party stired up a lot of controversy due to its X5ish look.
As we mentioned back then, the CEO is almost an identical copy of BMW’s X5 model, and the only reason why it’s “almost identical” is that the SUV’s front end it’s a “clone” of the SUVs found in the Mercedes-Benz’s line.
BMW has immediately filed a lawsuit against them, but last week, an italian court rejected BMW’s claims.
“We are convinced the CEO wasn’t a clone of the X5. We are happy to see our view supported by a court ruling,” said an obviously pleased spokesperson from Martin Motors.
Martin Motors, distributor of Shuanghuan Automobiles in Italy and central Europe, has sold about 200 copies of the CEO and expects to sell about 1200 this year in their European markets. Definitely an important loss for BMW, especially now when they’re hurting financially.
BMW was the second manufacturer to sue Shuanghuan, Mercedes-Benz went after them for their “Noble” model, a Smart fortwo replica.
So, here are some images that I posted in the past, I will let you decide.

 

[skoony]

Not each Caravela, but you do have to apply for a patent in every country to assure legal protection afforded by a patent. A US patent only affords protection in the US, every country that has a patent law can only enforce that law if you hold a patent in that country.

Do you now understand why a patent needs to be global in order to mean anything, and how totally absurd the cost would be to attain such a thing.

Any company who can afford to patent their products on a global scale is in the business of selling huge volumes of products, or small volumes at huge cost to the consumer.

A Caravela would be many thousands of dollars more expensive if it enjoyed global patent protection, and you would never get ahold of one.

Would that alter the likelihood of them being cloned, I don't know, but if Rolex is to be an example I would say you would still have clones or counterfeits.

Maurice

if one has a patent,copyright or,trademark registered in the USA ,one is protected in the USA no mater where the product was made.
it can't be sold in violation here.
one can also register products in other countries. this isn't always necessary due to various trade agreements.
of course we have no such agreements with China.
regards
ike

 

[Technonut]

Show me another bottom feeding mech mod similar to a Reo, that's also located in the U.S.

But... But... It's only a block of milled aluminum, a switch, 510 connector, bottle, and tubing. Shouldn't cost over $30.00 to make.

Funny how one's sense of value changes when it's something you're personally interested in..

 

[Circa Survivor]

But... But... It's only a block of milled aluminum, a switch, 510 connector, bottle, and tubing. Shouldn't cost over $30.00 to make.

Funny how one's sense of value changes when it's something you're personally interested in..

It's different. If I wanted to purchase a bottom feeding mech similar to a Reo, I really don't have a choice but to get the Reo if it works the way I want. Now if China made a good bottom feeding mech, I'd be all over it. These tube mods are all the same, they function the same. They don't work like the Reo. Yes, it's basically a mech, but it's a bottom feeder.

 

[edyle]

Here's a case of a Chinese clone maker threatening to sue Apple if Apple releases the iphone in China:
Chinese clone manufacturer threatens to sue Apple over iPhone 5 design - Macworld Australia - Macworld Australia

Chinese clone manufacturer threatens to sue Apple over iPhone 5 design

Macworld Australia Staff
6 September, 2012
View more articles fromthe author

AAA

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Comments .
News


GooPhone – a clone phone maker in China – is threatening to sue Apple if the iPhone 5 is released in China, claiming it already owns the patented design.

The claim is dubious, given the design Goophone is referring to is a cheaply-made Android handset, cloned on the back of alleged components of the iPhone 5 released several months ago.

But, according to a report by Cult of Mac, the Chinese company may have the law on its side:

“…they have released their clone first, so everything that comes after that must be a copy, even if they actually made their phone after the parts of a phone that hasn’t been released yet but that everyone believes is the real thing”, the report states.

The GooPhone I5 handset features a 4in screen, a small dock connector port and a back component comprising mainly of metal –all features that have long been rumoured to appear on Apple’s six-generation iPhone.

GooPhone has already secured patents for the Android device in China, and will likely use this as evidence to file an injunction lawsuit against Apple, to ban the sale of the iPhone 5 in China. However, the company could be headed for trouble, considering Apple has held its own patented iPhone 5 technology for several years already. And, as Mac Observer points out, has already demonstrated the lengths it will go to in order to protect its designs in the recent patent trial against Samsung.

@grace_robinson_

 

[dr g]

Which one.. copyright..trademark..patent.. Also which eyes should I cite?

(edited) And your are correct about trademarks and patents. (missed your prior post) There are many written laws on the books that no one enforces or can't be enforced.

My point was go into the courts without anything registered and see how far you get.

You would also know how many are registered or seeking registration that cannot be enforced for one reason or another. Maybe 10% of them actually are "good".

Copyright does not need to be registered. Trademark, you can stop a registration of your trademark if you have used it in commerce previously.

And here's a bit about the BMW case:
BMW loses court battle to chinese X5 clone

Ever checked out the CEO vs the X5? Not close enough to be considered a clone. the vaping equivalent would have identical or nearly identical rear lights, and most importantly the distinctive bmw grill, and THAT would have been found infringing.

 

[bluecat]

U.S.Copyright Office

Click on copyright registration. Splitting hairs?

 

[edyle]

And here's an interesting little twist to the lawsuits:

1: Apple wins a patent fight with Samsung
2: Samsung raises price 20% on processor it supplies to Apple

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...-so-smart-samsung-jacks-up-prices-apple.shtml

Apple Learns That Suing A Key Supplier May Not Be So Smart; Samsung Jacks Up Prices On Apple

from the oh-look-at-that dept

Apple may be happy it won the first round of its patent fight against Samsung in the US (it's not faring quite so well elsewhere around the globe), but these things have consequences. Besides being a competitor, Samsung is also a key Apple supplier... and it appears that Samsung is now using that to its advantage, jacking up the price on a mobile processor supplied to Apple by 20%. The report notes that Apple pushed back initially, but after realizing it couldn't find a reasonable replacement, agreed to the new prices.
According to the report, Apple buys all APs used for production of iPhone and iPad from Samsung Electronics with the volume estimated to be 130 million units last year and more than 200 million units this year.

Samsung Electronics has a long-term contract to supply APs to Apple until 2014, the report added.
So even if Samsung has to pay Apple for patent infringement, perhaps it'll be financed by the higher prices on processors Samsung sells Apple.

Maybe, next time, instead of suing each other, they could just focus on building products people like and letting the market sort the rest out.

 

[skoony]

A theft cannot be made until ownership is proven. If these companies do not have a patent/trademark/copyright on file (or pending/started) there is no way to prove ownership. I was thinking about this last night. It is similar to insurance. We buy insurance to protect or assets in case something happens to them. The inventors patent/trademark/copyright their "insert whatever" to protect them. It is like they do not want to purchase the insurance yet reap all the benefits.

Some spoke of moral and ethical obligations. Aren't these companies just foregoing the same moral/ethical obligation that they speak of.

your right in saying if they don't jump through the hoops they are not going to get the treat.

i have said earlier that in the future this authentic v clone thing is going to be around for the foreseeable future.

as the market matures so will the business acumen of the manufacturers. more will either copyright and trademark their
products. the ones in the market now and future entrants will do more to protect their products.

regards
mike

 

[dr g]

U.S.Copyright Office

Click on copyright registration. Splitting hairs?

My mistake. Yes you can register copyrights. What I was thinking about is the fact that automatic copyright protection is quite robust and registration is not necessary to have the right on a wide scale.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Actually that is a bunch of hogwash and you know it. To say I can not afford an original when you do not even know me is just plain stupid at any level. In fact I can buy any original out there if I so choose. I have the means and finances to get pretty much anything I want. I am also a smart minded guy and realize that it is silly to think that way. I put the max in my retirement. I investment my money. I do not make frivolous purchases. I also give to those charities that I so deem worthy. I am a sucker for Children type charities. I use most of the money I make to provide for a life of my kids that I did not have growing up. I ask nothing of anyone and give until I can't anymore. So please come down of your high horse with the rest of the country.

To answer your first question, a lot. Would I pay it? No. It is not my line of business.

I also do not feel these are worth 200 bucks. You may think otherwise. Go for it, man.

Your words belie your intentions.

If you invest your money you know very well that buying a $30 clone of a $150-300 device is a bad investment.

To buy an item that will most certainly never appreciate in value, is a choice that shows lack of future oriented planning.

Authentic devices tend to retain a high percentage of their original value or actually appreciate in value.

In the case of clones or counterfeit devices, they depreciate rapidly to the point where they are more valuable as scrap metal than anything else.

My intentions are not relevant to anything, I'm simply pointing out the basic flaws of clone proponent logic.

Clones cost less so I'm saving money, false logic, and ultimately untrue. Depreciation is very real, and leads to a very true saying "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things", its a harsh truth.

There are plenty of folks who have ten or more clones in their mod collections, and as many atties that are clones as well. Total value maybe in the $600 range when new, about the same as an exceptional authentic rig or a couple very nice rigs.

Frivolous purchases are those that have a low or no chance of returning on your investment. Costume jewelry for example, a total waste of money for the ladies out there, I'm not saying buy gold and diamonds, silver is not expensive but it will appreciate in value just the same as gold and diamonds.

Fake stuff is fake, aside from the ethical issues, fake stuff is a waste of money.

Your not investing well, if your investing at all.

Maurice

 

[bluecat]

My mistake. Yes you can register copyrights. What I was thinking about is the fact that automatic copyright protection is quite robust and registration is not necessary to have the right on a wide scale.

Yes it is automatic. No you do not need to register a copyright either. I don't have to clean the snow off my sidewalk either. Unless some idiot falls and sues me because he didn't see the ice.

It is more practice than written law. Which is what my "eyes" comment was about. Heck in Ohio there is a law on the books that a man may not curse in front of women and children. You know how many men would be fined or locked up these days? There would be only 1 or to of us men left in Ohio.

 

[mwjones]

If you think you can just walk into a machine shop and get them to do anythng for free, you're sadly mistaken friend Most shops are about $100/hr for shop time.

 

[dr g]

Yes it is automatic. No you do not need to register a copyright either. I don't have to clean the snow off my sidewalk either. Unless some idiot falls and sues me because he didn't see the ice.

It is more practice than written law. Which is what my "eyes" comment was about. Heck in Ohio there is a law on the books that a man may not curse in front of women and children. You know how many men would be fined or locked up these days? There would be only 1 or to of us men left in Ohio.

Not a good example, automatic copyright protections are VERY widely used to protect works. Most of what's online is protected that way, anything periodical, newspapers, magazines, TV newscasts, etc.

 

[bluecat]

If you invest your money you know very well that buying a $30 clone of a $150-300 device is a bad investment.

To buy an item that will most certainly never appreciate in value, is a choice that shows lack of future oriented planning.

Authentic devices tend to retain a high percentage of their original value or actually appreciate in value.

In the case of clones or counterfeit devices, they depreciate rapidly to the point where they are more valuable as scrap metal than anything else.

My intentions are not relevant to anything, I'm simply pointing out the basic flaws of clone proponent logic.

Clones cost less so I'm saving money, false logic, and ultimately untrue. Depreciation is very real, and leads to a very true saying "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things", its a harsh truth.

There are plenty of folks who have ten or more clones in their mod collections, and as many atties that are clones as well. Total value maybe in the $600 range when new, about the same as an exceptional authentic rig or a couple very nice rigs.

Frivolous purchases are those that have a low or no chance of returning on your investment. Costume jewelry for example, a total waste of money for the ladies out there, I'm not saying buy gold and diamonds, silver is not expensive but it will appreciate in value just the same as gold and diamonds.

Fake stuff is fake, aside from the ethical issues, fake stuff is a waste of money.

Your not investing well, if your investing at all.

Maurice

I bought a clone. It is now 1.5 years old and working fine. I have an Evolve kick in it and I also have a Smok kick. Prior to what I said before about the 2, I now find the evolve does allow a better vape. That wasn't my point though or I am missing yours.

Ever bought a car? 99% of automobiles purchase depreciate when you drive it off the lot. Not all purchases are about appreciation. Maybe that is the angle you are coming from. If it is then I can see why. I also have never understood why people will spend the same amount or more in the classies. That almost proves the price fixing point and artificially keeping production down to keep prices up.

I didn't buy my clone as an investment. When I smoked I would crush the .... of the cig under my shoe. I feel the same way about vaping.

I was talking about true investing, mutual funds, REITs, partnerships, gold, silver and the like. I have no investment in vaping. It is a means to an end. To end my addiction. I love Dave Ramsey.


I have 3 clones devices and a clone topper and some non clone regulated. SS Brass Copper nemy. Both the copper and the brass have been fully sanded, buried in the yard, left in the hot sun for two days with a cloth of sweat and salt. The SS is in the process of having all marking sanded off. Why? I think they are ugly. I like a simple design. I don't use the brass and copper because I cannot take the smell. I wonder where I would be at if I bought 2 200 buck mods.. I guess I would be out 400 bucks for something I never use. No thanks.

No, frivolous means no purpose or value. It is like ordering a $60.00 20 pound hamburger and eat in 30 minutes to have your picture on the wall.

1+ year 20 bucks for an ss clone and 20 bucks for kick.. hmmm 40 bucks for a year...I'll take it.

Like I said. You don't know me. I'll make sure I change my portfolio because you said I am not investing well. From where I sit my balance sheet looks pretty darn good. My financial guy likes it too, at least he charges me a ton for it.