Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

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Man, are they hiring at your company? :laugh:



.......

Wow. (if not sarcasm in quote above)

.......

Sarcasm. HEAVY sarcasm. Wow - you need a sense of humor, man. :)

In case you missed it, I put the little "laughy face" at the end. That usually denotes a joke, or something said in a joking manner. Or sarcasm. Meant to be funny funny ha ha.
 

MistaKuraudo

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I don't remember this kinda high and mighty attitude in days where dodgy cable boxes were going around and people were chipping playstations, or when it comes to things like downloading music or movies for free, or streaming them off sites that don't have permission, hacking software, etc etc.

For me personally its not that i'm trying to justify it as ethical or not stealing, its just that i don't really care, i have my reasons. I'm just a consumer making my choice. Original makers aren't losing out on my business as i would never have spent what they sell for if there were no clones anyway, i have my reasons.

There are many things in business that are legal in the US and morally wrong, do you boycott and whine about those too or does the law made by the people looked after by the system make it ok?

Either way i don't care, i make my choice and I'm happy with it. Not everyone will like my decision but, such is life


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Playstation and Xbox are now region locked and several gamer's systems get bricked because of firmware updates now, MTV is... no longer MTV and I never read up on the effects on the movie industry, but I'm sure quite a few people have lost jobs because of piracy.

So yeah, although you may not care, there are repercussions to all of these actions. Just like there are repercussions to cloning devices. In our case, we lose innovation and we get... the same 18650 devices, but in 26650 form. We get several different colored devices of the same exact thing. We get a billion kayfun-style chimney atomizers. The same old same old, with very little innovation in between.

I mean, why be original and make something new when China can take it, along with your profits? And yes, you can say that it's a device that wouldn't have been purchased in the first place, but that isn't the case with everyone. Saying there are NO lost sales AT ALL would be very wrong.
 

HgA1C

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A mechanical mod is a simple circuit. It cannot be trademarked, patented, or copyrighted. To be able to patent something it has to be a novel innovation markedly different then any other device marketed/sold currently or in the past e.g. an invention. For example the Glas switch to his mechanical mod, in theory may be eligible for a patent if it is substantially different than previous designs. However his Mod design is not eligible for a patent as there is no novel innovation to a tube with a circuit in it e.g. flashlight. Mechanical mod makers have no protection unless they apply for a patent and have genuine innovation. As far as I know, very few if any mod makers apply for patents. They are or should be aware of these facts if doing business in the United States. Failure to protect their work is consent to be infringed upon. Therefore there is no legal or moral argument against clones. An American mod maker cannot reasonably justify their high price "because America is more expensive" and then state it is too damn expensive to get patents or protections, that is ludicrous or they are on speed (Space Balls reference).

Trademarks are a different matter and much more difficult to apply to a product design. As far as their logo's yes that is morally and legally wrong for other companies to utilize and copy as they are trademarks, officially or unofficially. As far as I know, REO would probably be the only mod eligible for a trademark based on the fact that his product design is in fact, wholly unique and identifiable as a brand. This, however, would be prohibitively expensive to protect. To which the answer to this is that if you are going to use America as an excuse to overcharge it is disingenuous to say that trademarks, copyrights, and patents are to expensive while marking up your product 10,000%. Have you ever noticed that REO has had a few products attempt to clone his bottom feeding design? Only boutique makers are still in the market and they charge more than REO. The other options are all substantially inferior, and do not sell well. His product has inherent worth that is not easily copied by china, and that is why he makes the same product year after year while other mod makers fail. He sells it at a reasonable markup, it is a niche market design, and people take pride in owning American when it is not an excuse to abuse our wallets. Finally, it would be a gray area to market a mod as a "Glas" style mod.




Trademark, Patent, or Copyright?

"A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol, and/or design that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others. A service mark is a word, phrase, symbol, and/or design that identifies and distinguishes the source of a service rather than goods. The term “trademark” is often used to refer to both trademarks and service marks.

Must all marks be registered? No, but federal registration has several advantages, including a notice to the public of the registrant's claim of ownership of the mark, a legal presumption of ownership nationwide, and the exclusive right to use the mark on or in connection with the goods or services set forth in the registration.

A patent is a limited duration property right relating to an invention, granted by the United States Patent and Trademark Office in exchange for public disclosure of the invention.

A copyright protects works of authorship, such as writings, music, and works of art that have been tangibly expressed.

The Trademark Operation of the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) handles trademarks only. For information on patents, please visit Patents or contact 800-786-9199. For information on copyrights, please contact the U.S. Copyright Office (a division of the Library of Congress)."





Personally, I have and will most likely only buy authentic Mods (atomizers are a different story). My purchases are based off a company utilizing a reasonable business model and intrinsic value. No matter what, China will not be able to clone intrinsic value and charge substantially less. Labor, and material savings on a mod most likely will be at best $50. If the original maker has an efficient process and markets to the proper market, most people will gladly spend $50 more for a first world produced part vs a Chinese clone. Evolv boards are made of high quality components in the USA, and sold at a reasonable price. The market has established a going rate of $150-$200 for an Evolv based design. To warrant higher prices you would need something unique like the ZNA. Well now that is cloned you say? I guess that is why Zen has announced support for the clones. The electronics and components on the clones lack the intrinsic value of an official ZNA with an Evolv board. He sees this as a business opportunity to provide value by increasing the intrinsic value of the electronics of a clone to be equivalent to his product. However, no matter what, the clone is a clone and will never have the resale of the original ZNA. I just hope he will mark clones that he works on, in some way, to distinguish them from his original work to help protect his customer base's resale value.

Most of the Expensive mods such as the Glas rely on a combination of intrinsic and extrinsic properties. His materials appear first rate. His design is clean, and machined to an exacting standard. China could only dream of achieving a 90% quality clone at under $100. For example, if there is "only" $40 dollars worth of material there are many steps in making it a quality piece. Quality materials require knowledge to machine with low reject rates. Most of the American machinists that I have known, could not achieve this without outside assistance in a small business type setup.

People will buy these for the aesthetics and pleasure of owning a first rate device. The beauty and exclusivity of owning one is an extrinsic property. The current designs will only be "worth" the dollars as long as the market will bear the premium. When the market drops on current Glas designs as it will eventually happen, for some reason or another. Glas will innovate and come up with a new design, or die. Now if Glas comes up with new designs the older models may maintain a collector status and keep their price tag high. Similar to an Apple approach on product development.

(Sorry for any typos on a late night nicotine rush)
 
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dr g

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I have a story to tell and it’s up to you guys if you want to agree or disagree but I feel this is somewhat related or if not an example of what is really going on here.

I am a designer. I went to school and paid a hell of a lot of tuition to develop my skills as such. After graduating and a couple odd jobs that are related to my field, I started my own company. I designed small furniture and home accessories. I design a product, make samples and then join trade shows to sell my designs. It took some time before before the business took off but it eventually did. I was able to get an order from one of the big chains in the US. A small order at first then after gaining their trust a huge order of the same product. I used whatever resources I had and a few loans to fix up my little factory to accommodate the order. When the new factory was done it was time to purchase the raw materials and that’s the time I got the bad news. They told me that they will pull the product from the catalogue and wait until the next season. I still continued to do business after that incident but the huge overhead of the new factory plus loan repayments killed me and I eventually had to close shop. It’s not that easy to make a new product fly.

After a few months I was somehow able to get a hold of their catalogue and I was shocked to see my product in the catalogue. After some long and heated debates they finally admitted that someone from China approached them and offered the same product, of which his initial sample was bought from their store, at a cheaper price. I was just starting out so I could not afford international lawsuits. My product was patented in my own country only because I could not apply for a patent in a country of which I have no legal entity of.

As for the profits, there is not that much profit as you guys think there is. You have to consider there are middlemen and retailers who take a surprisingly big chunk of the pie.

As far as I know, I did everything right and got screwed in the end so I just stopped trying and went on to other things. Thank god those other things panned out and I am living well now.

Nothing like firsthand experience to "get it." For others, it's usually too late when they finally do.
 

NathanielFT

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Playstation and Xbox are now region locked and several gamer's systems get bricked because of firmware updates now
PS3, PS4 and Xbox One are not region locked. Region locking has little to do with piracy, more to do with dissuading imports and because of different laws in varying regions, one of the reasons some dlc is still region locked

MTV is... no longer MTV and I never read up on the effects on the movie industry, but I'm sure quite a few people have lost jobs because of piracy.
So you gonna a guess to validate your argument? Ok so will I, I think shows like the real world and jackass showed MTV that there's a lot of money to be made in reality tv and entertainment, and they made their move, and are now bigger then ever

So yeah, although you may not care, there are repercussions to all of these actions. Just like there are repercussions to cloning devices. In our case, we lose innovation and we get... the same 18650 devices, but in 26650 form. We get several different colored devices of the same exact thing.
There are repercussions for all actions i agree, however i highly doubt products would be much different if there were no clones. Originals still sell out as soon as they are released, and they hardly struggle to shift the waves of stock that follow. Stattqualm are kicking off over the squape r clones yet are sold out in the UK.

We get a billion kayfun-style chimney atomizers. The same old same old, with very little innovation in between.
Thats just a twist on cloning really, take something that exists then tweak it and sell as your own.

I mean, why be original and make something new when China can take it, along with your profits? And yes, you can say that it's a device that wouldn't have been purchased in the first place, but that isn't the case with everyone. Saying there are NO lost sales AT ALL would be very wrong.
Saying no sales lost to clones would be as stupid as saying no sales has been gained from their existence, as well as free marketing and promotion



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TheProphet

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No, I really am. I know the difference between right and wrong and live by a certain set of moral and ethical standards the entitlement generation just wouldn't understand...

You live by what you think is right or wrong. One's thoughts about what's right and what's wrong are completely subjective based on your background. Your culture, your history, region, religion, etc etc. There is no black and white right and wrong.

Also just so you know I actually have a modicum of respect for some on here ( like Circa) who fully admit they are ok with Stealing other peoples work then those who continue to try and justify it by coming up with poor unsupported uninformed arguments like "they are making to much money" "it costs so much less than they charge" "they are not available" "i am on a budget" etc etc. And before you judge my elitism check my posts on here and elsewhere I try very hard to help new and experienced vapers I regularly ship at my expense juice to new vapers and send Atties rebuilt so that new vapers can try them.. your accusation that I have a feeling of superiority is very misplaced and I think just another way for you to deflect and excuse your justifying and supporting theft.

Here, if it makes you feel better, I am completely ok with China companies "Stealing" designs and making clones.

I don't remember this kinda high and mighty attitude in days where dodgy cable boxes were going around and people were chipping playstations, or when it comes to things like downloading music or movies for free, or streaming them off sites that don't have permission, hacking software, etc etc.

For me personally its not that i'm trying to justify it as ethical or not stealing, its just that i don't really care, i have my reasons. I'm just a consumer making my choice. Original makers aren't losing out on my business as i would never have spent what they sell for if there were no clones anyway, i have my reasons.

There are many things in business that are legal in the US and morally wrong, do you boycott and whine about those too or does the law made by the people looked after by the system make it ok?

Either way i don't care, i make my choice and I'm happy with it. Not everyone will like my decision but, such is life


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You. I like you. My thoughts, but spoken far more eloquently.
 

bluecat

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You seem to be confusing a free market and thieves. We used to shoot thieves. Wars have started over (much) less than what China has been doing to the first world over the last decade or two.

If our government would do the right thing and work on import/export agreements, thing would be different. We are basically laying on our backs wagging our tails as China scratches our belly. Unfortunately, they are too busy trying to figure out how some dude ran into the White House and got on the elevator with the President or what they are serving for dinner for the Prime Minister of Israel.

We don't have a free market system. We may want to think it, but we do not.
 

retird

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If they were able to get out of the order with no repercussions, you did something wrong. Sorry it happened to you, but it seems you were not as proactive as you could have been in protecting your interests in the deal and got burned.

:eek:

:thumbdown:

:(

:mad:

Sheesh, this thread was almost civil for awhile. Tsk tsk.

Nothing like firsthand experience to "get it." For others, it's usually too late when they finally do.

Yep this thread was civil for a bit........ only one thing comes to mind that I learned at an early age..... "don't judge or criticize till you have walked a mile in their shoes".....[Moderated]
 
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skoony

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Pardon my ignorance and out of topic question but what does "chipping your playstation" mean?

it also means to be able to play cd's and such not intended for your market.
asian market,north america.south america,etc... .
some regions may have a popular or unreleased product in your region. PS's are set to keep you from obtaining it at a lower price or,or get something not released to your region yet.
 
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NathanielFT

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it also means to be able to play cd's and such not intended for your market.
asian market,north america.south america,etc... .
some regions may have a popular or unreleased product in your region. PS's are set to keep you from obtaining it at a lower price or,or get something not released to your region yet.

O yh i forgot that part, was awesome being able to play movies unavailable in the UK, loads of anime movies amongst other things were region locked to either Japan or the States at the time. Ahhh memories


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ItTechy

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. To warrant higher prices you would need something unique like the ZNA. Well now that is cloned you say? I guess that is why Zen has announced support for the clones. The electronics and components on the clones lack the intrinsic value of an official ZNA with an Evolv board. He sees this as a business opportunity to provide value by increasing the intrinsic value of the electronics of a clone to be equivalent to his product. However, no matter what, the clone is a clone and will never have the resale of the original ZNA. I just hope he will mark clones that he works on, in some way, to distinguish them from his original work to help protect his customer base's resale value.

(Sorry for any typos on a late night nicotine rush)


Edited quote /reply:

Yes, when HOH (Zen) chips a clone it says 'ZNA CLONE" on boot up! :thumb:
 

MistaKuraudo

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So you gonna a guess to validate your argument? Ok so will I, I think shows like the real world and jackass showed MTV that there's a lot of money to be made in reality tv and entertainment, and they made their move, and are now bigger then ever
[Moderated] Removed YouTube video

There are repercussions for all actions i agree, however i highly doubt products would be much different if there were no clones. Originals still sell out as soon as they are released, and they hardly struggle to shift the waves of stock that follow. Stattqualm are kicking off over the squape r clones yet are sold out in the UK.
There are still authentics that sell out on release, yes. But there are a lot of modders starting up that never see the light of day even if they have a unique product. Some even get their design cloned before they can even make enough money to start up a second list.

Thats just a twist on cloning really, take something that exists then tweak it and sell as your own.
There's a difference between a "Coach Purse" and a "Dooney & Bourke" purse. Some might look the same and have similar materials, but it's only a counterfeit when you make a "Cooch" or "Booney & Dourke" purse. And China doesn't even care about slightly changing the logos in our case; it's just a blatant rip off.

Saying no sales lost to clones would be as stupid as saying no sales has been gained from their existence, as well as free marketing and promotion
You say free marketing and promotion, yet a ton of vapers wouldn't have purchased this particular device unless they already knew what it was. Reviews are great marketing and promotion as well as word of mouth. But clones are great marketing and promotion for other clones. I've never seen a clone-owner advocate that people should get the authentic version of what they have. Lol. But yeah, I guess that's still free marketing and promotion. Haha!
 
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Davey59

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You say free marketing and promotion, yet a ton of vapers wouldn't have purchased this particular device unless they already knew what it was. Reviews are great marketing and promotion as well as word of mouth. But clones are great marketing and promotion for other clones. I've never seen a clone-owner advocate that people should get the authentic version of what they have. Lol. But yeah, I guess that's still free marketing and promotion. Haha!

Not any kind of justification BUT, I have read numerous posts right here on ECF where people have clearly stated that they really liked their clone so much that they went ahead and bought the authentic. Said they would not have "tried it" at the full price, no way.

Clones do in fact provide free advertising for authentics, and one hell of a lot of it.
 

holy_handgrenade

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You dont need a million dollar budget for R&D, but there is time spent creating prototypes, testing the electrics and refining the design so that it can be consistent from model to model. That consistency is something I dont see from the chineese clones. There's also the huge issue of materials cost. While most of you are looking at what it cost to go to home depot or true value to get an off the shelf piece of tubing, that's not how these are made. A small shop needing a run of 1,000 through the CNC machine is going to cost way more than having 10,000 run through that cnc machine. But you need to buy the materials for 10,000 pieces in order to do a 10,000 piece run.

Seriously, too many here are armchair philosophers thinking they can do better. If you can, where's your mod?
 

skoony

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[Moderated] removed YouTube video


There are still authentics that sell out on release, yes. But there are a lot of modders starting up that never see the light of day even if they have a unique product. Some even get their design cloned before they can even make enough money to start up a second list.


There's a difference between a "Coach Purse" and a "Dooney & Bourke" purse. Some might look the same and have similar materials, but it's only a counterfeit when you make a "Cooch" or "Booney & Dourke" purse. And China doesn't even care about slightly changing the logos in our case; it's just a blatant rip off.


You say free marketing and promotion, yet a ton of vapers wouldn't have purchased this particular device unless they already knew what it was. Reviews are great marketing and promotion as well as word of mouth. But clones are great marketing and promotion for other clones. I've never seen a clone-owner advocate that people should get the authentic version of what they have. Lol. But yeah, I guess that's still free marketing and promotion. Haha!

OMG!,Louy Anderson has a love child.
 
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NathanielFT

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This is a comedy video, a piss take? Do some more thorough research rather then googling and clicking the first thing you see smh.

There are still authentics that sell out on release, yes. But there are a lot of modders starting up that never see the light of day even if they have a unique product. Some even get their design cloned before they can even make enough money to start up a second list.
Thats business mate when it comes to start ups some swim, most sink. Whether thats because of the cloners, because not all inspired ex smokers are cut out for this business, or because they are robbed legally by their own country's system, no room for every aspiring inventor i'm afraid. Thats just the way it is, in all industries.

There's a difference between a "Coach Purse" and a "Dooney & Bourke" purse. Some might look the same and have similar materials, but it's only a counterfeit when you make a "Cooch" or "Booney & Dourke" purse. And China doesn't even care about slightly changing the logos in our case; it's just a blatant rip off.
China sells as a clone not as an authentic, only people guilty of that would be those on this side of the world. Lets not pretend that the West dont have industry stifling practices and underhand tactics that you overlook because the law THEY make says its ok. And forget about right and wrong for a sec, clones have their place and are rife in many industries, this one is supposed to be the exception why?

And why is this even your fight? You're just a consumer like me?

You say free marketing and promotion, yet a ton of vapers wouldn't have purchased this particular device unless they already knew what it was. Reviews are great marketing and promotion as well as word of mouth. But clones are great marketing and promotion for other clones. I've never seen a clone-owner advocate that people should get the authentic version of what they have. Lol. But yeah, I guess that's still free marketing and promotion. Haha!
You misunderstand what i mean by promotion, of course a clone user won't recommend people to buy an original? Some do however use clones as testers which leads them to buy an original, something they may never have done if a 'testrun' via clones was unavailable.
Also hundreds if not thousands of people see mods and atties on fasttech/focal/etc. that they never seen or heard of before, i know i have. They may buy it just because they like the look and cheap price. They may then go on a forum and post pics and name drop, promoting the clone and (indirectly) also the original, possibly captivating even 1 person who never knew about this mod previously who is also an original only vaper, thats mentions, pics and a sale to the original maker off the back of the clone that they wouldn't have otherwise got, and thats no more farfetched then assuming if $40 clones weren't available people would be joining facebook groups or lists to buy the real deal for $250 instead, ha!
I nearly bought a legit stumpy kit for my rose clone, $70 (more then i paid for my clone) eden mods wouldn't have ever seen if it weren't for clones, too bad they had no stock.

Look i dont expect you to understand my view or respect it, but the fact remains that i dont care. I will keep buying clones, and there is nothing anybody can do about it. Not only that but i'll continue recommending good clones to others, and if theres ever an original really beautiful and innovative, i may buy it and send to China so the masses who otherwise wouldn't be able to can enjoy it. And nobody can do a thing about it.

Heres a fun fact though, i bet the cloners have kept more people off cigs then original makers, me for 1 ;) and no, points don't go to them for coming up with the original idea as they never intended to supply to the market segments that cloners do in the first place



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HgA1C

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Seriously, too many here are armchair philosophers thinking they can do better. If you can, where's your mod?

So I take it you are in the Machining and prototype fields?

I just ask as you are defending the mod makers high prices. I will take my 10+ years in the tool and die industry, g-coding, small and large batch production, and prototyping experience. For companies in all industries, including automotive, aerospace, and medical to name a few and utilize that for my basis of estimating a mods true material and machining costs.

Lathe costs are around $40-60 an hour, and milling machine cost is usually $60-$100. These are customary rates charged in my area for firt-rate equipment. Exotic machining such as 5th axis or EDM work is based more on complexity and individual job. These are the going rates, and should be used for product pricing.

With exception for a few mods with exotic material I have not seen any mechanical with a production cost exceeding $100 and most are under $50. Overall, the markup on some of the simpler mechanicals are astronomical.

I guess this kind of crap is why I left the manufacturing industry. I became tired of not getting raises for over 5 years even though my company was making a huge profit from paying me an "insanely" high $25 plus an hour.

By the way every shop I quit, needed to hire 2-3 people at a total cost of $40-$60 an hour to replace me and my "high" pay. They recieved less skill at a much higher price. That was the story of manufacturing in my part of America for the last 15 years. It has literally been a race to the bottom so they could compete with lower wage areas. I know many CNC coding level individuals, such as myself who have switched concentrations due to the lack of salary increases.

I may someday start a hobby shop that is equipped with CNC equipment. I will then think about starting niche based product production.
 
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