B&M pricing is crazy!

[Interpim]

It took me a bit this morning to catch up on some of these posts.

It sounds like I created quite a storm of conversation.
I would like to clear a couple things up from my original post which probably could have been worded a bit better.

First, I was complaining about a single B&M, which in fact was actually a kiosk at a mall.

Second, I feel B&M's are good, and serve a great purpose which is getting vaping into the open for folks who don't know what was going on.

Third, The B&M in question didn't "educate" me on anything. I actually spent more time explaining things to them, and the guy running the kiosk seemed pretty grateful for the info.

Fourth, This was not a jab at B&M's across the board, or a jab at people who run retail business's. Basically a frustrating experience trying to buy juice that was IMO, way over priced.

Lastly, vape on!

 

[Jim Diamond]

I agree with supporting local B&M's if their prices are reasonable (a reasonable markup) and if they are friendly and helpful.
But, if they are rude, forget it. I won't pay for rude.

 

[bluecat]

Almost 450 years later and it still rings true.


A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late.

Thomas Tusser in Five Hundreth Pointes of Good Husbandrie, 1573:

 

[optsmk]

I have been to a lot of B&M's in the last month just to check out some of the prices and devices they carry. Most of the markup seems to be around 50% to 100% depending on the item. That's a lot more than ordering online, but when you take into consideration what they have to pay employees and other amenities just to keep the lights on, it's understandable. With that said, there are some deals to be found and the convenience of getting your stuff immediately is worth it.

I found several places that sell juice for 15 bucks for 30ml. That's a pretty good price for juice, and it's pretty good stuff. I also found a B&M that sells replacement coils for my Vivi at a couple bucks each and some mini tanks for about 3-5 bucks each. It's probably not the cheapest around, but not bad considering.

If you want to buy a mod for cheap then online is probably the way to go. Most of the mods I have seen at the B&M's go for anywhere between 100 and 300 depending on what they have.

One more thing to add because I just read Jim's post. All of the B&M's I have been to were really friendly and very helpful. One of the reasons I like B&M's so much is because I can go in and talk to someone face to face. If they are nice and knowledgeable, that a big plus in my book.

 

[Ref Minor]

And is a business supposed to explain the payroll taxes, unemployment insurance, electric bill,water bill,shipping charges that businesses pay,licenses and fees for misc. items..

Which of these costs can an online store avoid?

 

[k3vin]

Ref,I have spoken with the guy who delivers to my buddys shop.and you know what he delivers mostly too?? private residences.boxes and boxes of the stuff from china.Ecig stuff. that saves on renting a building.which can run a few thousand a month.and if you arent answering customers questions constantly,other than an email here or there.there is probably as well not much "time on the clock" wasted.

Cost of gas to and fro to place of business.

I've never said that NO online store incurs expenses as some of the B&M's..It Just irk's me when people knock the prices at B&M's.And Im not saying there isnt some B&M's that do straight rip off people who vape.But so do many online vendors as well.

 

[optsmk]

First, I was complaining about a single B&M, which in fact was actually a kiosk at a mall.

There's your problem right there.
I remember the first e-cig I ever bought was in a mall kiosk called Smoking Everywhere. The actual e-cig was just a little 4081 device that I paid $150.00 for (what a rip). The guy there didnt really know anything about e-cigs at all and neither did anyone else that worked there. Most of the employees at a real B&M seem to know a lot.

 

[Penn]

First, I was complaining about a single B&M, which in fact was actually a kiosk at a mall.

There's your problem right there.
I remember the first e-cig I ever bought was in a mall kiosk called Smoking Everywhere. The actual e-cig was just a little 4081 device that I paid $150.00 for (what a rip). The guy there didnt really know anything about e-cigs at all and neither did anyone else that worked there. Most of the employees at a real B&M seem to know a lot.

Optsmk is correct. Kiosks are typically not viewed as B&M for many reasons. But those reasons aside, they are still a totally different animal and they give the entire industry a bad name. Of course, this is assuming what I hear about kiosks is true since I've never seen one. The only B&M's I've been to are not much more than MOST websites I see in the "Forum Suppliers" listed here. As I said earlier in the thread, maybe GA is the exception which is believable since they have to compete with cheaper cigarettes than most areas of the country.

 

[bluecat]

Which of these costs can an online store avoid?

I have been wondering this the same. Only 2 option I can see

1) they do all the work themselves... that could be said the same as the B&M
2) they use a fulfillment company.. still they pay the fulfillment company for the fulfillment companies wages.

 

[McFeely]

It's very reasonable to be the only employee at a B&M, if you have a store in the mall its about 72 hours a week no social life but doable (I've done it). If you open in a small shop downtown its only about 54 hours if you don't open Sundays. True you may need help if you open in downtown Pittsburgh, New York, or Austin on a busy street, but lets be honest in a smaller town you can't expect every smoker in the city to run to you the second you open the doors. The first few months aren't going to be hectic until word of mouth spreads.

Also you can't just hire someone and take off home to take a nap, you are going to stay until you're comfortable with them working by themselves.

 

[ksin291]

$99 for a set up.. A few weeks worth of cigarettes at $8 a pack.
Paying overhead at a store employees, taxes, etc.. Etc.. If it has any problems take it back and have real time discussions about issues.. At some places not all..
Say it breaks in 2 months. $99 + saved from not smoking..

As far as the price in juice you quoted.i would Go buy somewhere else..

This. It takes a lot to run a B&M, there is crazy overhead that online businesses just do not have. That being said, some will mark up much more than others. My local B&M's are actually decently priced and there always is the fact that you get instant gratification when going to a B&M, no waiting for shipping...

 

[bluecat]

This. It takes a lot to run a B&M, there is crazy overhead that online businesses just do not have. That being said, some will mark up much more than others. My local B&M's are actually decently priced and there always is the fact that you get instant gratification when going to a B&M, no waiting for shipping...

What crazy overhead?

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

B&M's have to pay their leasing agreement, employees, lights/power/utilities, buy furniture/displays/racks, etc. Let's take in to account that a single display case can cost $1,000 or more and the one here locally has 3, that's $3,000+ and should someone press down too hard and break/crack the glass, now they have to pay maintenance costs on top of what they already paid for the cases.

B&M's also typically have to have insurance (sometimes product insurance), security systems & alarms and surveillance to make sure you don't walk out with something when they turn their back to you, etc. This all has to be factored in and can easily run you thousands per month or more depending on your location and access to your store. If you're right off the highway, you're in a prime location and will pay more than someone who is back in the woods or down and around a few street corners.

The above is on top of whatever they pay themselves to cover their living expenses.


When it comes to running an online shop, you have web hosting fees, which are minimal unless you're seeing a TON of traffic, product fees (bottles, flavors, nicotine, PG/VG, etc) and maybe a few employees to process orders that come in. You're only true overhead is based on how much product you stock at once for your online store. And it's for this very reason many are online-only.


When you grow enough, you can branch out, but it's always more expensive to start up as a B&M than it is online. I could easily have a store online tonight, products in the next few days, and be ready to sell by the end of the week. A B&M can't do that as easy as they still have to manage their store, make sure employees show up, etc.

 

[Kabooma]

I don't see how running a B&M vape store is any different than running a B&M anything else. I used to be partners with a guy who opened a (retail) shop.. he taught me that you must have enough capital starting out to be able to operate for 2+ years at a loss. He said you can't start a business with nothing in the bank and nothing to pay a couple of employees, because it will be well past 2 years before you can expect a profit in almost any business. Of course there's exceptions, but look at the SBA and the stats.. most small businesses fail.. at the same rate they did before the internet.. and the internet really hasn't changed anything other than making mail-order easier for the customer.. and mail-order has been around forever.

So, preach all you want on why they have to charge 100%-200% markups to stay in business, but after two years of offering fair prices and stellar service, they would have enough of a customer base to afford to stay that way.

Bottom line is that people open businesses when they have no business doing so, and we're expected to pay for their stupidity? Most online vapor shops don't drop-ship either. They still pay all the same expenses as B&M's do, with possibly lower rent with warehouse space vs. retail space, but that won't make or break a business, and if it does, it was a poor business plan that's at fault, not the interwebz. I'm editing this in light of the post prior to mine- both B&M and internet stores need space, lights, insurance, employees, etc.. I'd grant 10% higher costs to the B&M for operations, and probably $20k more for the startup (and that's being generous), but again.. I say 2+ years capital.. those differences could easily be absorbed with the right plan in place.

 

[Suss]

I've only been to one B&M in my area, was ignored, saw EVODs at $15 apiece, left!

 

[MJTP]

I personally can't wait to go to Gatlinburg and show my support for Mountain Oak Vapors. I personally think their device selection isn't a good variety and only consists of whatever is already outrageously expensive (at least one 1300mah Twist battery and a Protank II added to their stock would target a widespread audience), along with only selling drip tips practically made out of diamond, but their juices are extremely well-priced, and considering their safety measures, glass bottles, built in droppers, and being able to sample anything in-store, it's really great the prices they have on their juice. Fantastic shipping speed, and I even received a bottle of an NET freshly bottled on the very day I ordered it.

I just wish that they'd have a bit more of a device selection so I could start just ordering everything from them, they're a company that TRULY deserves business - opening a vape shop that has mediocre juice in dangerous plastic bottles with employees that probably don't truly know Flip from Adam isn't an automatic praise in my book. A good business will revolutionize a market (as it did in Gatlinburg - appearantly the surge in vaping is extraordinary there because of MOV and all they do and sponsor) and bad one will chase customers away.

 

[zahzoo]

I wouldn't mind supporting a B&M if there was one less than 50 miles from where I live. Haven't had the time to check them out yet. Until that happens I'm an on-line consumer.

I did visit a few B&M's in Las Vegas on a trip a few months ago. Prices were fairly reasonable for juice, parts and no frills cartos and clearos. They even had some eGo kits at a reasonable mark up.

I did stop by a mall kiosk several weeks ago in Jonesboro, Arkansas... they let you sample their juices and I picked up a 15ml bottle for $12.95. They had some eGo kits with just a 650 mAh battery and CE4 clearo with a USB charger for $59.99 which is robbery. I inquired if they had any of those CE4 clearo's and asked how much... The guy says $30... I said you mean $3.00 he says no $30.00. I asked him are you kidding? I could by 20 of those for that much. He just rolled his eyes... needless to say I'll never return there.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

@Kabooma

Unless that was aimed at me, I'm not preaching to anyone . My local B&M charges pretty reasonable rates and may be $1-$2 higher on batteries/mods (example: eGo batteries) than online shops, but I'd pay more than that small difference for shipping with most others, so it's negligible.

I agree with you in that no shop should be marking up products at 100-200%, however, that really only applies to mods and batteries. All juices that I've come into contact with are marked up well beyond that. If I bought the supplies needed to produce a 5 ml bottle of juice (just as an example), the cost of the juice would average out to about $0.05-$0.06 per ML combined and $0.15-$0.20 per bottle. On the high end, that's $0.30 for juice and $0.20 for a bottle, totaling $0.50. And that is with a small small small order - I'm talking 250 ml bottles of nicotine, PG and VG being ordered - nothing huge. And that includes the cost to ship it to me via USPS.

With that in mind, when I buy juice, I'm a little more particular. I won't buy basic flavors that I could just as easily make on my own. I will, however, buy and support dealers that take the time to do some creative flavors, or something different. Too many of them just buy some flavors, mix it, throw it online and hope it sells. I think being a little more creative is a better route to take.

 

[rico942]

Indeed they are -_-
No problem supporting local business but thankfully I'm in SD where there is quite a few to choose from, however the biggest one that has quite a few branches is borderline ridiculous now. $12.99 for a single 510 atomizer.bonkers I'll pass for the smaller shops in the area.

Also in SD, North County coastal. I think I know the chain store you're referring to, and both times I stopped there I was completely ignored by the staff for as long as it took me to examine the contents of their two small display cases. Never went back, even though its across from my favorite sandwich place ...

Hope someone opens a real and competitive store here in NC sometime soon ...

 

[k3vin]

Let me ask ...
You buy 100 I taste vv kit 3.0 for $35

How much would you sell it for?

If a bottle of juice costs you $1.00 to make. This includes the price of the bottle.
How much do you sell it for?

And don't forget that dollar amount for the juice could be .10-.20 cents more depending on shipping..

The real question how much do you sell
It for to stay in business?