Battery warnings :)

[opuscroakus]

I don't think you would want to recommend ANY battery. If I were to use a battery that you recommend or say is safe and something were to happen, would ECF not become liable? Not a lawyer but it would seem ECF would be wide open to litigation by recommending any specific battery.

 

[rolygate]

True enough. We'll have to get around that somehow.

Just now we need to at least get the message over that there are safer batteries.

 

[buGG]

OK.

And now buGG told me that there are question marks over most of the smaller LiFePO4's because they can't handle the drain, plus people are putting them in Li-ion chargers, which as they are 3.3 volt nominal and 3.6 v max charge is basically cooking them. Someone had their LiFePO4-driven mod blow up apparently.

yes, some may charge their batteries in a charger intended for a nominal 3.6V battery, but even using a charger like those commonly used for RCR123A LiFePO4 batteries is going to exceed the charge rate of cells smaller than the RCR123A/16340 size. these cells, including 10440, 14250, and 15270 sizes, would need specific dedicated chargers that would not exceed a 1C charge rate for the battery. not having this can run the risk of excessive current being pumped into the cell in order to reach the predetermined voltage cut-off point. even though the battery may or may not read 3.6V max (as it should) off the charger, it may have been pumped with 200, 300, or 400 mA of current, instead of a maximum of 100 or 150 mA to reach that 3.6V max charge point for a LiFePO4 chemistry cell. moreover, without cc/cv staging each cell may reach different end voltages with different degrees of excessive current pumped in them to get there. the incident with the LiFePO4 CR2 cells is the case in point, as the charger essentially turbo-charged the batteries, quite possibly each one to varying degrees, they are stacked and then over-stressed and routinely subjected to a 2+ Amp draw, and with repeated use, discharge after recharge after discharge, etc., the cell vents.

more importantly though, is that there aren't any lithium-based batteries smaller than the 16340 that safely meet the demands of any and all of the atomizers we use. we're talking about bursts, which is how most of these batteries are running with these setups, but safety implies the ability to continuously supply this amperage throughout the cycle of the cell. in fact there are literally only five battery types and sizes, across three manufacturers that meet all atomizer amperage demands and have drain rates qualified to prevent undue stress and prevent unnecessary failure on the batteries, the mod, the charger, and/or the end user. AW happens to make the only ones in the IFR16340, IMR16340, and IMR14500 sizes and chemistries. Pila, Wolf Eyes and AW all make satisfactory protected ICR cells in 17670, and 18500 sizes with up to 5A PCB protection circuitry. once you hit 18650 and bigger, you have a much wider set of options across a variety of manufacturers and chemistries, and below 16340 and 14500 cells, there are none.

but the point i was trying to make regarding larger batteries is that yes they will last longer and run safer than most of the cells we used to use. but using cells alone or in series with proper discharge rates, regardless of the runtimes, is going to give you similar performance and similar safety, provided that safe charging conditions, use, and maintenance are all in place. the IMR26650 and the IMR16340 will do the same thing, just one will work for days as opposed to mere hours for the other. one has a tremendous amount of stored energy in the cell which will be a beast if a short occurs, but safety demands are met in both instances for vaping. you can argue whether the protected ICR batteries are better in 18500 and 18650 or even 26mm cells over their IMR counterparts, but with proper maintenance, charging, and use, a quality ICR like an AW with it's protection circuitry is going to give the same results but do so for a good while longer. now we are able to make smarter battery choices, with different chemistries at different sizes for different applications, and of course a meter to periodically check voltages on the charger, as well as before and after charges, a solid charger like the pila for IMR and ICR batteries, and even an inexpensive ultrafire wf-138A dual-voltage charger dedicated to 3V for 16340 sized LiFePO4 cells only, all amount to further added peace of mind and smart sense.

 

[rolygate]

Did some more work on the battery info page today. Next up will be a list of batteries recommended, plus hopefully some suggestions for chargers.

I think I have enough info from your emails and posts here to put the list together. I'll post it here first because there is bound to be a debate about it, and it would be best to do that before it 'goes live'.

LiFePO4 looks like a difficult choice as the charger is critical and sources of the right ones are not exactly leaping out of google. Take this battery charger heaven - no chargers for small LiFePO4 though:
www.all-battery.com/chargersforlifepo4batteryandpack.aspx

 

[buGG]

Did some more work on the battery info page today. Next up will be a list of batteries recommended, plus hopefully some suggestions for chargers.

I think I have enough info from your emails and posts here to put the list together. I'll post it here first because there is bound to be a debate about it, and it would be best to do that before it 'goes live'.

LiFePO4 looks like a difficult choice as the charger is critical and sources of the right ones are not exactly leaping out of google. Take this battery charger heaven - no chargers for small LiFePO4 though:
LIFEPO4 Battery Charger

some of those balancing chargers, such as the Tenergy TB6AC 50W/5A AC/DC Dual Power Balancing Charger, will work because the charge rate can be set from .1A (100mA) up to 5A (5,000mA), and they specify their compatibility with Li-Fe chemistry as well. but these chargers are a bit larger and more expensive than the ones we're all commonly using now, and they necessitate alligator clips, separate charging bays, etc. but the charger itself is perfect for a smaller cell in the 14250 and 15270 range that may say 200, 300, even 500 mAh, but are more realistically about 150-200 mAh based on limitations of their chemistry and cell size.

again, problems can and do occur with the charging of batteries, but even with a proper charger such as some of the balancing chargers linked above, the batteries themselves will not be able to safely handle the drain of any atomizer, be it a regular resistance or one much higher.

many of us are ex-smokers, so one could say we occupy that fine line between being an idiot for doing it in the first place or for as long as we did, but also intellectually curious, committed, and adaptable to change for having ultimately made the switch to e-cigs. some of us remain engaged in this dialectic now, knowing better of our vaping habits, but doing them anyway, while others don't care or just don't know what to care about and how to address their concerns when they arise. a simple battery chart would be great, or just list the five or so batteries that do it all. until a particular manufacturer or groups of manufacturers get their acts together and produce similarly qualified cells, why not list the names of those who do and the batteries that fit the bill? not so much that you're recommending them and disavowing those that don't hold up, but explaining that these are batteries whose chemistry, size, manufacturing quality control, safety features, existing testing, and stated and/or verified specs meet the criteria for mod use. what users will do with the info beyond that is going to be up to them, but if safety is going to be the predominate concern of ECF and its membership then a list or graph with this information and a blurb as to why is probably the easiest and most effective way to reach the greatest number of those who may be impacted by the choices they make. of course, just my

 

[Drozd]

Did some more work on the battery info page today. Next up will be a list of batteries recommended, plus hopefully some suggestions for chargers.

I think I have enough info from your emails and posts here to put the list together. I'll post it here first because there is bound to be a debate about it, and it would be best to do that before it 'goes live'.

LiFePO4 looks like a difficult choice as the charger is critical and sources of the right ones are not exactly leaping out of google. Take this battery charger heaven - no chargers for small LiFePO4 though:
LIFEPO4 Battery Charger

this one's kind of easy...
the main size we're going to see LifePo4 at is going to be in the CR123a (16340 size) .....by the very nature of them being 3V ...the vast majority of users are going to stack them for 6V applications...I think there are 3 LiFePo4 batteries seen with any frequency in our use and all of them are CR123a size...
One at eastmall:
the tenergy LiFePo4: which the manufacturer says to only charge on their charger (they're often sold together) 2 RCR123A 3.0V 750mAh Rechargeable LiFePO4 Li-Ion Batteries with AC/DC Smart Charger
but these have that problematic •Maximum discharging rate:< 550 mA that I mentioned before
and the AW LiFePo4: which they recommend the Ultrafire WF-138A charger (it's the charger that the distributor sells with them through his CPF sales page)...lots of our vendors carry the WF-138A charger as well... as does lighthound ...should work with the eastmall ones too (but eastmall's site isn't currently opening for me to double check)

the Ultrafire WF-138A is going to be the best and cheapest option for a 3V LiFePo4 battery charger outside of a $230 Schulze ISL 330D LiFe enabled charger and googling ultrafire WF-138A will churn out lots of results.... users just have to know that they need to be set at the 3V setting for LiFePo4

 

[Drozd]

some of those balancing chargers, such as the Tenergy TB6AC 50W/5A AC/DC Dual Power Balancing Charger, will work because the charge rate can be set from .1A (100mA) up to .5A (500mA), and they specify their compatibility with Li-Fe chemistry as well. but these chargers are a bit larger and more expensive than the ones we're all commonly using now, and they necessitate alligator clips, separate charging bays, etc. but the charger itself is perfect for a smaller cell in the 14250 and 15270 range that may say 200, 300, even 500 mAh, but are more realistically about 150-200 mAh based on limitations of their chemistry and cell size.

again, problems can and do occur with the charging of batteries, but even with a proper charger such as some of the balancing chargers linked above, the batteries themselves will not be able to safely handle the drain of any atomizer, be it a regular resistance or one much higher.

many of us are ex-smokers, so one could say we occupy that fine line between being an idiot for doing it in the first place or for as long as we did, but also intellectually curious, committed, and adaptable to change for having ultimately made the switch to e-cigs. some of us remain engaged in this dialectic now, knowing better of our vaping habits, but doing them anyway, while others don't care or just don't know what to care about and how to address their concerns when they arise. a simple battery chart would be great, or just list the five or so batteries that do it all. until a particular manufacturer or groups of manufacturers get their acts together and produce similarly qualified cells, why not list the names of those who do and the batteries that fit the bill? not so much that you're recommending them and disavowing those that don't hold up, but explaining that these are batteries whose chemistry, size, manufacturing quality control, safety features, existing testing, and stated and/or verified specs meet the criteria for mod use. what users will do with the info beyond that is going to be up to them, but if safety is going to be the predominate concern of ECF and its membership then a list or graph with this information and a blurb as to why is probably the easiest and most effective way to reach the greatest number of those who may be impacted by the choices they make. of course, just my

I pretty much agree with what Bugg says here and in his previous post...I think much of what we're both saying is the same, just saying it differently...

I for example acknowledge that cartain batteries in certain sizes will serve for a certain atty or combo at a given voltage where they may not otherwise be acceptable for others... I therefore choose to simplify this by going with the worst case senario as far as amp draw goes...and the battery sizes that we most commonly use...
otherwise in a chart being made (I'm a glutton and trying to put one together) we'd have to chart every amp draw by voltage and resistance against every size battery by manufacturer (and some of those have multiple models in the same size)...

 

[buGG]

yep, total agreement with you drozd. worst case scenario, taking an all atomizers approach, there's but a few that hold up. charting each and every atomizer drain rate at a given resistance with every battery at a given voltage would be cool to actually see graphically, but it's somehow just simpler to go with the five or so batteries under the 18650 that fit all possibilities. increased load via lower resistance will increase the drain on runtime, and at sizes as small as 16340 and 14500 results in a negligible difference in actual runtime, if any, between the IMR and the protected ICR with a standard resistance atty and ample amperage in both setups. the difference is with the increased amperage draw, above spec, which benefits the IMR in each case, and then reverses to benefit the protected IRC for overall runtime at 17670 and above.

one other thing wrt failed protection circuits:
another benefit of the AW line is the steel bottom plates in many of their protected cells which help "protect" the protection circuitry from failing due to many of the tail spring applications of our mods. QC and attention to both safety and performance specs like this further sets them apart from the pack and makes them the best option for mods and vaping purposes. these other batteries hold value in various applications, but in vaping, as it is now with what's being commonly used in terms of devices and attys, there are but a few batteries that really get it right.

 

[Rocketman]

I really hate to comment and drag this out even further but I must.

Vents. Little vents on mods just erk me. I agree they are absolutely needed to keep pressures from building up but vents
WILL NOT FLOW ENOUGH VOLUME WHEN A CELL GOES THERMAL. A runaway 18650 may generate a couple hundred times the volume of the cell in hot gases. A mod will not contain it, small vents will not keep the pressure down to a safe level. The pressure will build up if the outlet orifice is not close to the size of the pressure source (the whole diameter of the cell after the positive cap has come off. Pressure will be equally distributed throughout the mod internal volume.
Venting 2 to 5 percent of the gas reduces peak pressure somewhat. Little vents in metal mods just erk me.
This gives the end user some sort of comfort in cramming any kind of cell he can find into a mod because it has "Safety Vents".
Rocketman

 

[rolygate]

Yes, this is a good point. But what is the alternative?

Either you have gas vents or you don't. No vents is a bad idea whatever the fault incident, if it's slow or fast. A slow incident might be reduced in severity if you have some vents. A fast incident - well, nothing's going to fix that in a metal case except an endcap blowing off. So I guess the only relevant factor in that case is that the bottom endcap sure better blow off before the top one.

Some blow-ups do have a 3 or 4-second warning though - hissing from gas venting, or even burning gas being expelled from the vents. So even in an explosive incident, gas vents can come in handy.

People who knowingly use the wrong batteries get what they deserve. People who make a mistake should at least get some sort of protection.

And just as a minor point, are there any incidents involving a battery as big as an 18xxx-series one? It seems to be the small ones that blow, as they're being overdriven / doubled-up. If you run two RCR123's then you better watch out. A user of a single 26xxx-series batt is not a bad risk for their insurance company

 

[duby]

Something should be said differentiating Li-po , lithium Polymer batteries from LiFePO4's.
Many people seem to get confused at this. I wouldn't want someone misreading and ending up with a square li-poly pack. You may want to note that li-poly packs are sensitive to physical shock and can blow up simply from an impact.

17340 seems to be omitted as a size. They exist, its obvious what they are to most people after reading that post, but you may want to note it for completeness.

You may want to note that LiFePO4's are theoretically a safer chemistry than Li-Mn. Li-Mn has higher voltage and capacity therefore making it suit our needs better.

For correctness

26500 battery - (no Li-ion version found in vendors lists, Li-Mn and LiFePO4 are available)

should say "No lithium cobalt" versions found. Li-Mn and LifePO4 are Li-ions in technicality.

Since it will probably be brought up by someone at some point, 14250, 14500, 18500 are all available in LiFePO4, here are links in case someone needs proof:
LiFePO4 battery 4 AA cells with empty cells - eBay (item 260677824989 end time Nov-12-10 17:02:32 PST)
New LiFepo4 IFR 14250 Battery 3.2 volt (2 pack) - eBay (item 360271581003 end time Nov-08-10 12:43:57 PST)
LiFePO4 18500P Size Rechargeable Battery 3.2V 800mAh - eBay (item 390220364818 end time Nov-17-10 15:25:55 PST)

I used ebay for simplicity and since most new modders will probably check there.

If you are linking Lighthound, etc. as a supplier you may want to link directly to AW's sales thread over on CPF. The prices are better and its not a reseller.

As far as chargers go, CC/CV is a huge discussion to be had. It may be best to simply limit it to a list of true CC/CV chargers which are few and far between.
Don't forget the custom built micro USB chargers on CPF as they are all true CC/CV unlike ultrafire/Trustfire chargers.

You should note the Pila charger needs spacers for many batteries.

I would like to see some emphasis on using the right charger at the right settings.
I wouldn't want someone trying to use a 1amp charger on a 14500 or smaller.
On ICR's the charging rate should be in the neighborhood of 0.5C.
And some note to the effect of "Do NOT EVER place 3V batteries in a 3.6V charger"

A chart of various drain rates vs atomizer would be awesome, but might be overload for new people. (Though I'd love to see one)

A list of manufacturer specs on commonly available batteries would be good as well.
Maybe convert it from C rates to drain rate in amps so that people can more easily see the difference.

Thanks for the work and info from everyone.

 

[rolygate]

OK, I edited the article to include (most of) this info. Apparently it prints out at 11 pages now...

- added a note on Li-Po. BANG!!
- added the 17340 format. Only seems to be available in LiFePO4.
- as far as adding LiFePO4's in the battery size chart, right now it's headed as a Li-ion size chart. Other types are in there only when there is no Li-ion (OK I know they're all Li-ions, but you know what I mean). I think if you wanted to do it fully as an all-battery size chart, it would get pretty big as most of those sizes have a Li-Mn and LiFePO4 model as well. Right now it just gives the basic format and some info about the Li-ions in that size.
- AW's bit on CPF is private, login only, so I don't think it's appropriate as a 'main' link. But I'll get an account over there and see what the score is. If there is a discount source, it's worth flagging up for those who want to sign up there.
- the "custom built micro USB chargers on CPF" sound handy, I don't know if that's public or login. Link?
- added a note on battery spacers, in the Pila charger section.
- using the correct charger settings - OK well that might need another section, which I can't write, as I don't know the specific charge currents for different cell sizes / specs. Just saying...
- drain rates vs atty is a good idea, could go in later when someone works that out maybe.
- battery specs + C ratings in amps is important - for sure. It should, I think, go in another chart alongside the one we will probably do for 'suitable' batteries. Probably won't go into that chart as it will bloat it. But as you say, people should see this info - also they should see it for batts that are too small, so they can see why they are too small.

 

[Drozd]

OK, I edited the article to include (most of) this info. Apparently it prints out at 11 pages now...

- as far as adding LiFePO4's in the battery size chart, right now it's headed as a Li-ion size chart. Other types are in there only when there is no Li-ion (OK I know they're all Li-ions, but you know what I mean). I think if you wanted to do it fully as an all-battery size chart, it would get pretty big as most of those sizes have a Li-Mn and LiFePO4 model as well. Right now it just gives the basic format and some info about the Li-ions in that size.
- AW's bit on CPF is private, login only, so I don't think it's appropriate as a 'main' link. But I'll get an account over there and see what the score is. If there is a discount source, it's worth flagging up for those who want to sign up there.- the "custom built micro USB chargers on CPF" sound handy, I don't know if that's public or login. Link?
- added a note on battery spacers, in the Pila charger section.
- using the correct charger settings - OK well that might need another section, which I can't write, as I don't know the specific charge currents for different cell sizes / specs. Just saying...
- drain rates vs atty is a good idea, could go in later when someone works that out maybe.
- battery specs + C ratings in amps is important - for sure. It should, I think, go in another chart alongside the one we will probably do for 'suitable' batteries. Probably won't go into that chart as it will bloat it. But as you say, people should see this info - also they should see it for batts that are too small, so they can see why they are too small.

really? we talking about this thread: AW's LiIon Batteries Sales Thread *Part 12* - CPFMarketPlace that thread and the stuff linked from it comes up public without login for me (in fact I only made and logged in there once when I needed to ask the AW guy a specific question so needed to post there)

I have an amp draw by voltage/ resistance chart.... but really should update it to include some of the newer LR atties

may work on a C rate chart but ul til that point the info is:
assume 1C for generic Li-Ion unless otherwise noted:
* exceptions are:
1.5C for trust/ultra/sure fire
2C for AW ICR
3C for BDL 10440 IMR
5C for BDL 14500 IMR
8C for AW 14500 and 16340 IMR
10C for AW 18650 IMR
10C for AW LiFePo4
tenergy just lists their max drain rate for their LiFoPo4 as < .55A

*max drain rate is mAh/1000 * C rate
*Amp draw is just voltage/resistance
having these 2 problems allows any user to compare amp draw against drain rate for any atty at any voltage against any battery with just a little basic math

 

[duby]

Great job,
Maybe a chart on battery sizes would be better for space. Check marks for available chemistries or the like.

AW's sales thread is publically viewable. And you can email rather than PM.
AW's LiIon Batteries Sales Thread *Part 12* - CPFMarketPlace

FS: Worlds smallest Li-ion charger with led display! -dual ma versions now available! - CPFMarketPlace

Simply, charge rates should be in the neighborhood of the max continuous discharge rate(preferably lower). Just like Li-Mn discharges higher than Li-Co and LiFePO4's discharge even higher than that, LiFePO4's can charge the fastest, Li-Mn's the second and Li-Co's the slowest. For Li-Co's 0.5C is a good rule of thumb though some can easily charge faster.
Some 18650 charges put out as high as 1000ma, most are 400ma to 600 ma. Most chargers have the output marked on them(though they are often wrong by as much as 40% in the worst case).
Charging with too high a current can cause explosions as well. Since most chargers are ~500ma this is only a concern for smaller batteries.
So generally speaking you will not want to use the same charger for an 18650 as you would for a 10440. You'll either be waiting forever for the 18650 to charge or overcharging the 10440.
A handful of desktop chargers have selectable current switches. Some chargers split the current across 2 channels, so its ok to charge small batteries in pairs but not alone.

Not sure how you'd like to put that in there. I'm glad its not my decision.

Great work once again.

 

[rolygate]

Added more stuff - those links and the C rating chart.

We can work up a charger advice section for later addition.

 

[mike20]

Very interesting and helpful points here.
I didn't buy in to what Drozd was saying in other threads until I proved it to myself. [Thanks Drozd]
Maybe a suggestion. One post mentions Li-Po and Lifepo4. I was confused wondering if they are the same. Found out they aren't and the Li-Po is some what more volatile than the Lifepo4. Don't know if people would look for these to run a mod but you know it could happen. Might help to clarify.
Thanks to all in this thread for the work--very important.

 

[rolygate]

Hi Mike.

We've got a lot of info up on our Battery Info page in the Library now, not sure if you've seen it:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/129569-rechargeable-batteries.html

A note on Li-Po batts went in there with yesterday's edits, pointing out they were mostly rectangular packs, and that they shouldn't be used for ecigs due to the issue with their delicate nature. Drop 'em and you've got problems by the looks of it.

Currently we are advising big Li-Mn's are a good bet, then LiFePO4 and protected Li-ion.

A 'suitable batteries' chart will hopefully be next, but it might ruffle a few feathers as some of the small batteries currently used won't feature in the 'best buy' department.

 

[mike20]

Thanks Roly

I think you will ruffle feathers especially with some of the suppliers.
You know as a note I've built my main mods using 2 18500 Lifepo4 and the batteries stay room temperature.
Tried a couple of Li-ion CR2 3 volt in the same mod and they were warm in a half hour. Proved to me that the 800 mah high power CR2 that was advertised just wasn't up to the job. I'll go with the bulk to get what I want. Alot of people out there pushing things past the limits.
Once again--thanks for the work you are doing.

 

[Drozd]

to further complicate things.... (not that I want to complicate things)...but the one thing that reading that that keeps popping out at me:
really there's no reason to go to LiMN in the 18650 size.... the regular Li-Ion ones because of their sheer mAh have more than sufficient max drain rate at 4.5A (when the worst we're throwing at them is 2.47A)....
the LiMN high drains in this size however are capable of 16A which really is overkill...
when we get to that size it's really trading mAh for an overkill in Amps that we really don't need


oh and @mike20 ... no thanks are needed.....I'm glad that you experimented and found it to be true yourself.... the simple difference of a battery can take even a simple box mod from a ok mediocre vape.... to something you're really happy with...really is a liberating thing...

 

[rolygate]

OK Drozd, I'll try to fix that somehow.

We need some sort of list or chart so next week I'll look at doing that, if nothing turns up in the meantime.