Beware of the Quit Smoking Purists

[cozzicon]

I have a few thoughts on this.

1) I know at least 3 people who have cognative and emotional issues without nicotine and MAOIs. They cannot function nicotine free - they are more miserable without nicotine and it is NOT better for them. So, unfortunately, we can't "all agree" that it's better to be nicotine free. Smoke-free, yes.

2) Twelve step programs are set up to combat an addiction to a substance which is disruptive to the person's life and for which there is no "safer alternative." There is no "alcohol alternative" that makes the user still feel good without the negative side effects. There isn't something in beer or liquor that harms the user other than the alcohol itself - the thing that causes the impairment and distruction. They HAVE to be completely abstinent.

What makes an addiction "bad" are the severe negative consequences of use. Up until e-cigarettes, the negative consequences of nicotine use was the SMOKE EXPOSURE. It wasn't the drug itself that caused the greatest harm, it was the delivery method. So, unlike with AA-type addictions, abstinence from the drug itself isn't required to remove the greatest danger for the user.

Air is perfectly safe when inhaled, but it'll kill you if you inject it into your veins. The delivery method makes the difference, not the substance itself.

3) I would leave them to themselves, but their beliefs and methodology applied to ALL smokers kills people. Abstinence (cold turkey) doesn't work 90% of the time and NRTs don't work 93% of the time. Refusing to acknowledge tobacco harm reduction and keeping smokers on a deadly quit-relapse cycle just keeps people smoking when they don't have to and feeling like horrible people when the quit fails. Quitting in cycles of 3 months off and then smoking 6 months and then quitting again is not good. They would be better off (healthwise) switching to a smokeless alternative for the entire time. People who go to that site should know that if they cannot or will not quit yet, they should at least use a smokeless alternative in the meanwhile. If they wish to be free from addiction (rather than just free from the smoke) then they can take the necessary steps. But for the love of God, don't stay on the quit-relapse doomsday ride!

Well- I disagree with much of what you have said. And your characterization of 12 step programs and addicts is alarming to me.

Heading off to a "quit smoking forum" to talk e-cigs, is going to result in the same resistance every time. It's a mistake. And I'm sorry to say it verges on harassment from the perspective of the cold turkey quitter. Ethically speaking, you do more harm than good. It's like going to an AA meeting and trying to discuss non alcoholic wine, or O'Douls (which both actually still contain alcohol).

If you want to educate. Great... do an educational program about vaping.

But let's not take a gang of users from ECF, and go posting in other people's forum. Taking moral high ground, even if justified, is a very bad way to make friends and gain respect.

I'm ashamed that this happened. Right or wrong, people have a right to their belief systems. If total abstinence is their thing... let it be.

It's called "Live and let live": Something any 12 stepper knows by heart and practices daily. Even when dealing with other addicts- whether recovering or not.

 

[Trbobitch]

Yes, I've seen several very reasonable people come out of the woodwork. *Some* of them seem to have an ulterior motive and I think others are truly sincere in wanting to support anyone who has QUIT SMOKING. The others can't seem to get over the "holier-than-thou" attitude, but they seem to be staying out of the e-cig section today.

 

[Katmandu]

fondue, go check out our section at QSMB.

There's a new thread in there that you should read.

 

[kristin]

Gary, did you see my answer to your "My Plan of Attack" thread? I posted there and now it seems to be gone??

 

[MagnusEunson]

Well- I disagree with much of what you have said. And your characterization of 12 step programs and addicts is alarming to me.

I think some time in an Al-anon program for those who want to better understand addiction would be worthwhile. I don't know if there is a more generic Family Twelve Step program, do you? -Magnus

 

[Trbobitch]

Gary, did you see my answer to your "My Plan of Attack" thread? I posted there and now it seems to be gone??

I don't see it... Something I noticed on that forum: sometimes when I hit submit, it doesn't go through for some weird reason and I have to hit it again. Then I see the confirmation that it was posted. Methinks the Internets ate your response Hate when that happens.

 

[John Phoenix]

Gary, did you see my answer to your "My Plan of Attack" thread? I posted there and now it seems to be gone??

I just checked. i don't see it either.. there was one of your's DC2 and I both replied to.. I thought it was in that thread, but perhaps it was in another.

Edit: Oh.. that was in another thread.. well I ain't helping much LOL
QuitSmokingMessageBoard.com • View topic - What is the theory behind it?

 

[John Phoenix]

I don't see it... Something I noticed on that forum: sometimes when I hit submit, it doesn't go through for some weird reason and I have to hit it again. Then I see the confirmation that it was posted. Methinks the Internets ate your response Hate when that happens.

I dunno.. If you saw my posts last night.. i made a PM to Fred that disappeared out of my outbox in control panel - and in Groups in control panel, it says, " administrator" in light blue - I have no idea what that means.. are we being watched... monitored.. censored?

 

[ShannonA]

Well- I disagree with much of what you have said. And your characterization of 12 step programs and addicts is alarming to me.

Heading off to a "quit smoking forum" to talk e-cigs, is going to result in the same resistance every time. It's a mistake. And I'm sorry to say it verges on harassment from the perspective of the cold turkey quitter. Ethically speaking, you do more harm than good. It's like going to an AA meeting and trying to discuss non alcoholic wine, or O'Douls (which both actually still contain alcohol).

If you want to educate. Great... do an educational program about vaping.

But let's not take a gang of users from ECF, and go posting in other people's forum. Taking moral high ground, even if justified, is a very bad way to make friends and gain respect.

I'm ashamed that this happened. Right or wrong, people have a right to their belief systems. If total abstinence is their thing... let it be.

It's called "Live and let live": Something any 12 stepper knows by heart and practices daily. Even when dealing with other addicts- whether recovering or not.

I don't think anyone is asking them to change their beliefs. They don't have to change their beliefs to make room for vaping. Many people CAN and DO use vaping to get off nicotine. That fits right in with their beliefs.

Not only that but you can have your beliefs and be tolerant of others beliefs as well.

I think you're right we shouldn't have gone but being human and protective of our own we did.

It has gone so far that Fred has done a lot of work making room for us and it would be pretty crappy if we just left now. The time for that has come and gone.

All that aside we seem to be making some bab steps.

 

[kristin]

I could swear I saw it posted - I think I even fixed a typo. If someone reports it I wonder if it just gets deleted?? Maybe they didn't like that I discussed snus....

I don't see it... Something I noticed on that forum: sometimes when I hit submit, it doesn't go through for some weird reason and I have to hit it again. Then I see the confirmation that it was posted. Methinks the Internets ate your response Hate when that happens.

 

[kristin]

It was about figuriung out his trigger times and if he's gotten past that, etc. Is that the one you remember?

I just checked. i don't see it either.. there was one of your's DC2 and I both replied to.. I thought it was in that thread, but perhaps it was in another.

 

[nitejanitor]

I read a great deal of the responses posted on the other forum and all I can really say is...wow! Close-minded at it's finest! I couldn't believe how rude, insensitive, and all around nasty a lot of those people were. I have all the respect in the world for people who are able to quit smoking cold turkey because I have never been able to do it for longer than a week. I simply lack the willpower to do it. As of today, I am now 20 days smoke-free and I feel great! I know without a doubt in my mind I could not have done it without the aid of my PV.

The thing that shocks me the most was that these people couldn't even give credit where credit was due. We are all kicking the habit so who cares HOW your doing it! If you have to stand on your head while wearing a coconut bra and hum 'Poker Face', who gives a s**t, YOUR GETTING AWAY FROM CIGARETTES! The big picture obviously eludes them and no amount of logic and reasoning will ever open their eyes. I could go on all day about this topic...but I won't.

I'm curious-what would YOUR reaction be if I was to come here & bring a bunch of Q people & invade you with how life is so great now that I'm nic free???? That was my first reaction to the invasion but you guys stood your ground & Fred sort of punished us for acting so rude & look now your bunch has been "approved" for having another website to educate those curious about e cigs-I'm impressed for sure-never in the 2 yrs of being there has their ever been any type of change thats why some go & some stay. Hopefully the doubters here of me won't see this question as pot stirring but something I've been dying to ask.

 

[John Phoenix]

I could swear I saw it posted - I think I even fixed a typo. If someone reports it I wonder if it just gets deleted?? Maybe they didn't like that I discussed snus....

I think I remember that post. You spoke about snus use overseas. I think you mentioned Sweden and the UK.

 

[John Phoenix]

It was about figuriung out his trigger times and if he's gotten past that, etc. Is that the one you remember?

This is that post: QuitSmokingMessageBoard.com • View topic - What is the theory behind it?

it's not the same one your looking for i don't think.

 

[phonedude]

fondue, go check out our section at QSMB.

There's a new thread in there that you should read.

To be honest its something I will have to digest slowly and ponder.

 

[kristin]

Well- I disagree with much of what you have said. And your characterization of 12 step programs and addicts is alarming to me.

What was "alarming" about it? I was just saying that 12 step programs were designed for a completely different type of addiction, IMO, and don't really apply to a chemical that has a safer alternative? I'm not saying that 12 step prgrams aren't good for what they were designed for - but I feel it's not the same with nicotine. I can quit nicotine and relapse with a safer alternative than smoking and barely impact my health or those around me, nor does it affect my ability to function. Smokeless nicotine doesn't get people high or impair their functioning and the health impact is negligible. An alcoholic or street addict who relapses doesn't have a safer alternative - they are immediately risking their health and impairing their functioning. That's why abstinence is so important in those situations.

I cannot "live and let live" in good conscience when I know that results in smokers continuing to smoke because they think that they have no other option other than "quit or die" (abstinence.) If AA had a track record of 90% of it's members relapsing and dying in a drunk driving accident or by alcohol-related illnesses, you are darn right I would want to find them an alternative, too! Unfortunately, there is no alcohol alternative that allows alcoholics to use their chemical of choice without impairing their functioning and/or harming themselves and others. Alcoholics and other users have no other choice but to get back up on the wagon. Nicotine users have a choice. I would never dream of disrupting an AA meeting in the way you imagine because it's a completely different situation. It's not a fair comparision.

 

[phonedude]

Gary, did you see my answer to your "My Plan of Attack" thread? I posted there and now it seems to be gone??

No I didn't. I will look.

 

[phonedude]

No I didn't. I will look.

I don't see it.

 

[ClayK]

I'm curious-what would YOUR reaction be if I was to come here & bring a bunch of Q people & invade you with how life is so great now that I'm nic free???? That was my first reaction to the invasion but you guys stood your ground & Fred sort of punished us for acting so rude & look now your bunch has been "approved" for having another website to educate those curious about e cigs-I'm impressed for sure-never in the 2 yrs of being there has their ever been any type of change thats why some go & some stay. Hopefully the doubters here of me won't see this question as pot stirring but something I've been dying to ask.

I've been thinking about this a lot the last day or so and really had to take an inventory of what was going on inside me. I honestly see both sides. I do see why there would be some uproar from QSMB, I can partially see that and understand it. I also understand that other board members from there, long standing ones and ones that had left to other boards, had made mention that that was just the MO and daily routine. I can also see from this side about how the initial responses were, well, frankly aggressive. There are plenty here that are off nicotine, working to get off nicotine or have a plan to get off nicotine. There are also people here that don't want to or don't have a plan to. The ones that are in the first group would definitely feel marginalized and slighted at the reception.

I don't think anyone likes change or likes their beliefs challenged. I also believe that people generally dislike what they don't know or understand (or can relate to).

Equally, I think that people that feel they have a common idea or goal as someone else but get marginalized by someone with that like goal simply because they don't understand or refuse to understand can be equally as frustrating. It's like talking about the same thing, in the same language, but for whatever reason, it's not getting through.

I do think there is common ground already and more each day. I truly think that there needs to be an understanding that these things do happen, even to close families, friends, support groups and what not. Understanding that, accepting that and moving forward are important. As days go forward and we find some more common ground, I think we'll see and understand each other better. There's no sense in rehashing every little thing that was said or done or whatever. I acknowledge that some of the things I said may have come across as hurtful and I own that. I also can also step forward and say I will work to not do that in the future.

 

[Randyrtx]

I'm curious-what would YOUR reaction be if I was to come here & bring a bunch of Q people & invade you with how life is so great now that I'm nic free???? That was my first reaction to the invasion but you guys stood your ground & Fred sort of punished us for acting so rude & look now your bunch has been "approved" for having another website to educate those curious about e cigs-I'm impressed for sure-never in the 2 yrs of being there has their ever been any type of change thats why some go & some stay. Hopefully the doubters here of me won't see this question as pot stirring but something I've been dying to ask.

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that you would not have received the hostility that was exhibited to John and the others posting there. For one thing, our moderators would have been banning us, not you, in a heartbeat. That level of abuse is simply not tolerated here, by anyone!

Many ECFers have tapered to zero nicotine... that is the goal of a great many. Many eventually even quit vaping when they reach that point.

I for one am glad you are here, and please continue to ask as many questions as you wish. I can guarantee you we will do our best to provide an answer.

Edit: I should add that I think both sides handled this badly, and I myself made posts here that I should not have, and for that I sincerely apologize. "The look what they said now!" crap should have never happened, on either side.