FDA Big 3 tobacco makers want FDA to ban vapor e-cigs
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What I would hate most to see happen is if they gained 100% control of the market then dropped it once regulation became an impossible hurdle to overcome for anyone except themselves.
Maurice
Maurice
The title of this post was the title of the article I was posting in my OP it appears the original article has changed titles.
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At least someone has been reading my posts
It's kinda what I said in Post #9
after my #2 which is where it started..... with help from dragonpuff, although unknowingly
after my #2 which is where it started..... with help from dragonpuff, although unknowingly
I think we All have been saying Relatively the Same thing for a Long Time in one thread or another. That BT is trying Very Hard to Influence the FDA for it's Goal of Dominating the e-Cigarette Market.
Whereas I Don't believe there is a connection with Dow as you asked in Post #2. You may be right.
But I do believe that if e-Liquids were completely FDA Regulated today the way Reynolds would like them to be, that Dow might take a Different view of selling PG and VG to Manufactures who make FDA Approved Non-Refillable Cartos.
It's one thing to make the argument that the FDA's deeming will 'as if by an invisible hand' end up helping their assumed 'enemies' - BT - when that was no part of their intent, vs. BT and 'friends' (DOW) trying to decimate the 'open system' ecig market.
When you responded to the general statement - 'At least someone is reading my posts' - pointing to your #9 post - you acknowledged the content of what I was saying
I personally think that RJR 'stumbled' into the idea after so many comments stated that the results of deeming would necessarily wipe out 99+% of the ecigarette market, including the 'component' and eliquid market. Seeing that, they took the junk science of kids and poison, etc. and decided to capitalize on that by showing how their closed system is 'safer' from a standard nicotine content, no toxic metal result from overpowering coils, etc. etc. IOW, all the things that ANTZ have been putting out from their junk science studies to 'conform' with the fear mongering of them and the FDA.
It would be as if Kodak got help from some gov't agency whose regulations would have eliminated Nikon and Canon out of the digital camera market, after Kodak was a late starter.
Vuse has been in development for quite awhile I would think.It's one thing to make the argument that the FDA's deeming will 'as if by an invisible hand' end up helping their assumed 'enemies' - BT - when that was no part of their intent, vs. BT and 'friends' (DOW) trying to decimate the 'open system' ecig market.
When you responded to the general statement - 'At least someone is reading my posts' - pointing to your #9 post - you acknowledged the content of what I was saying
I personally think that RJR 'stumbled' into the idea after so many comments stated that the results of deeming would necessarily wipe out 99+% of the ecigarette market, including the 'component' and eliquid market. Seeing that, they took the junk science of kids and poison, etc. and decided to capitalize on that by showing how their closed system is 'safer' from a standard nicotine content, no toxic metal result from overpowering coils, etc. etc. IOW, all the things that ANTZ have been putting out from their junk science studies to 'conform' with the fear mongering of them and the FDA.
It would be as if Kodak got help from some gov't agency whose regulations would have eliminated Nikon and Canon out of the digital camera market, after Kodak was a late starter.
It is my opinion that this has been the plan all along.
Perhaps, but certain things 'came together' recently. Any business wants to shut out competition, but the deeming really helps them. The ANTZ spin, plays into it as well.
It's no accident that the national roll-out of Vuse happened a mere six weeks or so after FDA published its proposed regulatory framework, or that the product was already in full compliance the day it hit the market (referring to itself as a "tobacco product" on the package, only available in cigarette-style flavors, no mention of nicotine content, etc.). Either RJR's people have amazing powers of precognition, or FDA allowed them access to the proposed regulations before they were available to anyone else. But hey, what's a little collusion between good friends?
Products are on a different and fairly predictable tarmac. Spin - that can take off at anytime depending on the current propaganda lines.
I think the ANTZ, Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, and the government all got together years ago and hashed out exactly how this was all going to go down.
I imagine the initial plan did not include Big Tobacco, and was focused on simply getting rid of electronic cigarettes.
Or at the very least handing them over to Big Pharma, should they be interested in them.
But when the FDA lost the NJoy case, they had to formulate a new plan, and bring Big Tobacco in on it.
The new plan probably was all about simply regulating them completely out of existence as tobacco products.
But as the popularity of electronic cigarettes spiraled out of their control, they probably came to realize they couldn't get away with that.
So now I expect them to take the next best route of handing them over to Big Tobacco in a form that drastically reduces their utility.
The ANTZ are probably not thrilled with that, but they realize it is probably necessary to concede that much at this point.
The cornerstones of this plan are easy to identify...
--Contend that we must control what is in them to keep them safe
--Contend that we must remove the flavors to keep the children away from them
What you are left with follows quickly and easily from there...
--Tamper-proof prefilled cartridges only
--Tobacco and menthol flavors only
--Proprietary devices that can not be tampered with
This is the only clear path that makes everybody reasonably happy and keeps the money rolling in.
And it's really the only logical conclusion I can envision.
I imagine the initial plan did not include Big Tobacco, and was focused on simply getting rid of electronic cigarettes.
Or at the very least handing them over to Big Pharma, should they be interested in them.
But when the FDA lost the NJoy case, they had to formulate a new plan, and bring Big Tobacco in on it.
The new plan probably was all about simply regulating them completely out of existence as tobacco products.
But as the popularity of electronic cigarettes spiraled out of their control, they probably came to realize they couldn't get away with that.
So now I expect them to take the next best route of handing them over to Big Tobacco in a form that drastically reduces their utility.
The ANTZ are probably not thrilled with that, but they realize it is probably necessary to concede that much at this point.
The cornerstones of this plan are easy to identify...
--Contend that we must control what is in them to keep them safe
--Contend that we must remove the flavors to keep the children away from them
What you are left with follows quickly and easily from there...
--Tamper-proof prefilled cartridges only
--Tobacco and menthol flavors only
--Proprietary devices that can not be tampered with
This is the only clear path that makes everybody reasonably happy and keeps the money rolling in.
And it's really the only logical conclusion I can envision.
I think the narrative you've proposed is probably pretty close to the truth, DC. You can tell this whole thing spiraled out of control far quicker than anyone was prepared for who has a vested interest in destroying a free-market vaping/e-cig industry. As they had no coherent strategy in place for how to respond to the threat, they fell immediately into a throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks mode.
It's one thing to make the argument that the FDA's deeming will 'as if by an invisible hand' end up helping their assumed 'enemies' - BT - when that was no part of their intent, vs. BT and 'friends' (DOW) trying to decimate the 'open system' ecig market.
When you responded to the general statement - 'At least someone is reading my posts' - pointing to your #9 post - you acknowledged the content of what I was saying
I personally think that RJR 'stumbled' into the idea after so many comments stated that the results of deeming would necessarily wipe out 99+% of the ecigarette market, including the 'component' and eliquid market. Seeing that, they took the junk science of kids and poison, etc. and decided to capitalize on that by showing how their closed system is 'safer' from a standard nicotine content, no toxic metal result from overpowering coils, etc. etc. IOW, all the things that ANTZ have been putting out from their junk science studies to 'conform' with the fear mongering of them and the FDA.
It would be as if Kodak got help from some gov't agency whose regulations would have eliminated Nikon and Canon out of the digital camera market, after Kodak was a late starter.
I just don't See a Conspiracy between BT and Dow when it comes to e-Cigarette Market Domination.
Dow doesn't Need e-Cigarette Sales. And I would consider it Foolish for Dow to Supply Base Ingredients to a Market where Anyone can put Anything into a Bottle and selling it to people as an e-Liquid.
Sure... I can Acknowledge what you said in Post #2. I just don't think it is true. But I don't have All the Answers. So you might be Right on the Money.
As to RJR Stumbling onto an Idea. Not Likely. BT is a Master of playing the Long Game. They have had their e-Cigarette in the Wings for some time now. Just because we see them Pushing a Bishop out right Now, Doesn't mean that they Didn't Think about doing it 3 Moves Before.
Reynolds is doing a Well Thought out Plan of Attack. Something they have had in the Works since the FDA Lost in Court.
Of course BT has information that the General Public is not Privy Too.
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar Industry. When that kind of Money is Involved, the Term "Inside Information" takes on a Whole New Meaning.
The FDA does want to Crash the e-Cigarette Market by Imposing regulations that Can't Be Meet. You Can't Tax something if it Doesn't Exist.
zoiDman:I just don't See a Conspiracy between BT and Dow when it comes to e-Cigarette Market Domination.
I don't either. Just similar thinking from what they've written.
Dow doesn't Need e-Cigarette Sales. And I would consider it Foolish for Dow to Supply Base Ingredients to a Market where Anyone can put Anything into a Bottle and selling it to people as an e-Liquid.
Right... but they do furnish PG to cigarette companies for cigarettes. It's in them, you know?
Sure... I can Acknowledge what you said in Post #2. I just don't think it is true.
It's basically what you said in #9 and as the link said in #2, it's just a wild guess.
But I don't have All the Answers. So you might be Right on the Money.
I thought it oddly similar enough to mention is all.
As to RJR Stumbling onto an Idea. Not Likely. BT is a Master of playing the Long Game. They have had their e-Cigarette in the Wings for some time now. Just because we see them Pushing a Bishop out right Now, Doesn't mean that they Didn't Think about doing it 3 Moves Before.
Kinda of a 'solo conspiracy'? or just plain 'evil intent' to capitalize the market.
Reynolds is doing a Well Thought out Plan of Attack. Something they have had in the Works since the FDA Lost in Court.
I prefer that they stumbled into it. Not that they weren't going to do the Vuse, etc. but the implications of deeming actually doesn't allow the Vuse, just the cigalikes, and maybe not even them. I think the 'poison' and 'who knows what's in those open systems' sub-ohm toxic metal pieces helped shape their ideas.
I don't either. Just similar thinking from what they've written.
Dow doesn't Need e-Cigarette Sales. And I would consider it Foolish for Dow to Supply Base Ingredients to a Market where Anyone can put Anything into a Bottle and selling it to people as an e-Liquid.
Right... but they do furnish PG to cigarette companies for cigarettes. It's in them, you know?
Sure... I can Acknowledge what you said in Post #2. I just don't think it is true.
It's basically what you said in #9 and as the link said in #2, it's just a wild guess.
But I don't have All the Answers. So you might be Right on the Money.
I thought it oddly similar enough to mention is all.
As to RJR Stumbling onto an Idea. Not Likely. BT is a Master of playing the Long Game. They have had their e-Cigarette in the Wings for some time now. Just because we see them Pushing a Bishop out right Now, Doesn't mean that they Didn't Think about doing it 3 Moves Before.
Kinda of a 'solo conspiracy'? or just plain 'evil intent' to capitalize the market.
Reynolds is doing a Well Thought out Plan of Attack. Something they have had in the Works since the FDA Lost in Court.
I prefer that they stumbled into it. Not that they weren't going to do the Vuse, etc. but the implications of deeming actually doesn't allow the Vuse, just the cigalikes, and maybe not even them. I think the 'poison' and 'who knows what's in those open systems' sub-ohm toxic metal pieces helped shape their ideas.
@ Kent C
I think what you Always have to Remember is RJR does what is Best for RJR. Period. End of Report.
If their Game Plan is Aligned with another Company/Companies, Great. But if it Isn't, then they will Forge Ahead without any Allies.
RJR is Hip on "Closed System" e-Cigarettes because it fits them Best. The Vuse Isn't Something that they Just Slapped Together in 2 or 3 Months. And the Choice of a Non-Refillable, Chip Enabled, Proprietary Connection Carto was not a Random Decision.
They are going to Push the FDA and Law Makers to go this Route. And if it Doesn't Work, and they Can't get the Regs to Support this type of Product, then they will just Sell Regular Hardware Like Everyone Else has.
Because they have the Manufacturing/Buying Capabilities to Sell BOTH. And the US Isn't the only Market they wish to make Money in.
I think what you Always have to Remember is RJR does what is Best for RJR. Period. End of Report.
If their Game Plan is Aligned with another Company/Companies, Great. But if it Isn't, then they will Forge Ahead without any Allies.
RJR is Hip on "Closed System" e-Cigarettes because it fits them Best. The Vuse Isn't Something that they Just Slapped Together in 2 or 3 Months. And the Choice of a Non-Refillable, Chip Enabled, Proprietary Connection Carto was not a Random Decision.
They are going to Push the FDA and Law Makers to go this Route. And if it Doesn't Work, and they Can't get the Regs to Support this type of Product, then they will just Sell Regular Hardware Like Everyone Else has.
Because they have the Manufacturing/Buying Capabilities to Sell BOTH. And the US Isn't the only Market they wish to make Money in.
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