Brace yourselves new Formaldehype junk study to be released Jan 21

[mudram99]

Is it just me, or do they seem to be circling the wagons to try and take our APVs since even though the gubberment will not allow us to refer to them as smoking cessation products it sure seems the loss of revenue from all of us who HAVE INDEED stopped smoking using them is starting to hurt the bottom line of BT companies.

Well I go on record here and now, they can have mine when they pry it from the hand that's not holding that other item they are trying to take from us!

 

[JollyRogers]

This is awesome, mainly because I guarantee this got a lot of coverage and will continue to. Also because a lot of the idiots who don't want to try to understand new things also watch Fox News, so they'll see this and be like "Oh, that DOES make sense".

I'm actually really surprised that out of all the mainstream news sources, THEY were the ones to look at it rationally and think about it critically instead of riding with the story like they(and pretty much all mainstream news sources) usually do.

I actually take offense to this comment. LOL.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zoiDman]

Interesting Thread.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/canada-forum/645593-formaldehyde-retraction-statement.html

 

[Robino1]

Leaving this here and I suggest that some people read.
Most here already know this.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-links-junk-science-other-rubbish-posts.html

Thank you

 

[rolygate]

.................
- I just wish I was in a better financial state where I could afford to throw money at pro-vaping entities to overcome BT / BP / BG clout and cash. It really seems the only way out of this is to fight fire with fire - or at least with a few quality science studies (as opposed to junk science). One word does come to mind: crowdfunding. I would happily throw $20, $50, $100 to know a thorough, objective study was being conducted. But this is looking like "too little too late".

If you're interested in the right way to go about it, please allow me to make some points (and thank you for your support):

• We have more than enough honest studies of vaping now.
• The commercial rivals opposing us have enormous, virtually unlimited funds to throw at this problem.
• They operate by denying that there is any research. They've said exactly the same thing for the last several years, and with the hundreds of studies now available on products, real-world effects, the effect on cigarette sales, lab analyses and all the rest: it makes no difference to their lies. "There is hardly any research" is their story, even with hundreds of studies showing up just in a search in PubMed.
• We could have enough research to create a layer ten feet deep across the globe if printed, it wouldn't make the slightest difference.
• The health issues are irrelevant: this is all about the money and has only ever been about the money.
• The only threat to smoking, and the enormous revenues it creates for government and assorted major industries, is THR. In practice, that's ecigs.
• Everyone earning fortunes from smoking - from the tax revenue, the MSA payments, the drugs to treat the sickness, the cigarette sales, and the lobbying - is desperate to kill ecigs.
• It makes not a jot of difference what the facts are or what the health benefits are or anything like that - this is all about the vast fortunes that smoking creates and that ecigs will destroy.
• You don't count. The sooner you die and shut the hell up the better, as far as they are concerned.

There are some things you can do:

- Don't die or shut up, keep shouting about the oppression (this isn't simply injustice, it's oppression - when the FDA regs come in, you'll begin to appreciate that).
- Join your national consumer association for ecigs, and help them with their work fighting corrupt laws.
- See if you *really* mean it about crowdfunding, and get together with others who can see what the real problem is (it certainly isn't research, we have enough to stretch to the moon and back); what is needed is a national info campaign in the major media to refute the torrent of lies.

The powerfully-backed and heavily funded liars are winning the media war hands down, and we need to do something about it. Research is a blind alley, when specifically addressing this problem - we have enough to paper the walls with and it makes no difference. This is a propaganda war and somebody needs to start fighting back.

Preferably soon, before there's nothing left to fight for.

 

[Kent C]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the study you linked was not by Dr. F.

The link is about the supposedly junk study .

It was, but you said Dr. F was clueless, and he didn't have anything to do with the study. I think you're clueless.

 

[bikerdave]

Dead link. Permission not granted on server.

 

[rolygate]

Dead link. Permission not granted on server.

This one?
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-links-junk-science-other-rubbish-posts.html

Seems to work fine either logged-in or as guest.

 

[DrMA]

If you're interested in the right way to go about it, please allow me to make some points (and thank you for your support):

• We have more than enough honest studies of vaping now.
• The commercial rivals opposing us have enormous, virtually unlimited funds to throw at this problem.
• They operate by denying that there is any research. They've said exactly the same thing for the last several years, and with the hundreds of studies now available on products, real-world effects, the affect on cigarette sales, lab analyses and all the rest: it makes no difference to their lies. "There is hardly any research" is their story, even with hundreds of studies showing up just in a search in PubMed.
• We could have enough research to create a layer ten feet deep across the globe if printed, it wouldn't make the slightest difference.
• The health issues are irrelevant: this is all about the money and has only ever been about the money.
• The only threat to smoking, and the enormous revenues it creates for government and assorted major industries, is THR. In practice, that's ecigs.
• Everyone earning fortunes from smoking - from the tax revenue, the MSA payments, the drugs to treat the sickness, the cigarette sales, and the lobbying - is desperate to kill ecigs.
• It makes not a jot of difference what the facts are or what the health benefits are or anything like that - this is all about the vast fortunes that smoking creates and that ecigs will destroy.
• You don't count. The sooner you die and shut the hell up the better.

There are some things you can do:

- Don't die or shut up, keep shouting about the oppression (this isn't simply injustice, it's oppression - when the FDA regs come in, you'll begin to appreciate that).
- Join your national consumer association for ecigs, and help them with their work fighting corrupt laws.
- See if you *really* mean it about crowdfunding, and get together with others who can see what the real problem is (it certainly isn't research, we have enough to stretch to the moon and back); what is needed is a national info campaign in the major media to refute the torrent of lies.

The powerfully-backed and heavily funded liars are winning the media war hands down, and we need to do something about it. Research is a blind alley, when specifically addressing this problem - we have enough to paper the walls with and it makes no difference. This is a propaganda war and somebody needs to start fighting back.

Preferably soon, before there's nothing left to fight for.

Fantastic write up, roly!

 

[Bobbilly]

It's not only that there aren't studies, it's that they discount any that aren't produced by Tobacco control agencies.

What needs to be questions is why are these groups just accusing the studies of being funded by BT, Ecig groups and vapers themselves. Basically my response is "put up or shut up" replicate the study and prove it wrong.


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[rolygate]

@DrMA
Thanks.

It's important to keep repeating that research, health or whatever are virtually irrelevant. This is about cancelling the gravy train and putting all the parasites who depend on it out of a job. Everyone from state AGs down has a personal interest in protecting the status quo, and they are far better at the propaganda game than the people on our side with any funds. We're getting seven shades of **** kicked out of us, and all we seem to be able to do is talk about even more research. Everything can apparently be fixed by 'more research'.

The other side are laughing all the way to the bank about what incompetent, disorganised berks we are. The research carrot seems to work like magic - it creates instant blindness and contagious stupidity. It's a winner.

At what point, I wonder, will our side realise they've been had and it's too late? When there are 10 million studies that show vaping is harmless compared to smoking? No, that probably won't be enough - we'll need more.

It's sad to see how naive and ineffective advocates or business people are when faced with ace propagandists. One master of propaganda is worth a million research studies and every vaping advocate out there.

 

[shreduhsoreus]

If you're interested in the right way to go about it, please allow me to make some points (and thank you for your support):

• You don't count. The sooner you die and shut the hell up the better.

.

Wow. Just wow. This is the kind of community that we have here? This is what's tolerated? This is the way our "forum manager" talks to members?

.... this place. I'm out.

 

[LaraC]

Roly, your entire post was so right.

what is needed is a national info campaign in the major media to refute the torrent of lies.

Yes!

The powerfully-backed and heavily funded liars are winning the media war hands down, and we need to do something about it.

Yes, again.

In the absence of a coordinated national information campaign presenting vaping in a good, honest light... letters to newspaper and magazine editors, letters and calls to television stations, letters and calls to politicians... those are things all of us can be doing individually. Tiny drops in the bucket, perhaps, but better than doing nothing.

 

[Dfinch]

Wow. Just wow. This is the kind of community that we have here? This is what's tolerated? This is the way our "forum manager" talks to members?

.... this place. I'm out.

I think you missed the point.

 

[readeuler]

Wow. Just wow. This is the kind of community that we have here? This is what's tolerated? This is the way our "forum manager" talks to members?

.... this place. I'm out.

If you come back, I do hope you realize that Roly was speaking from the perspective of the other side - if we vapers were to collectively shut up (I.e, dying, not "getting a seat at the table", etc), their job would get much easier.

As you can see, he's been at this quite a while. If you find the other side disgusting and infuriating, imagine how he feels.

But again, I'm pretty certain that wasn't directed at you (well, it is being directed at us, but not coming from Roly).

 

[Lessifer]

So, where do we start? How do we form the American Society for Public Health, whose directive is to reduce cancer and smoking related illnesses by promoting tobacco harm reduction?

 

[Kent C]

I think you missed the point.

There. Fixed it

 

[MrSparkle]

Wow. Just wow. This is the kind of community that we have here? This is what's tolerated? This is the way our "forum manager" talks to members?

.... this place. I'm out.

Take a breath and don't leave, my friend... it's all in the context.

I admittedly posted something driven more by emotion (and admittedly not in the right thread). rolygate met it eye for eye a few posts later, and nailed it specifically with this:

It's sad to see how naive and ineffective advocates or business people are when faced with ace propagandists. One master of propaganda is worth a million research studies and every vaping advocate out there.

My post was also driven out of frustration, which rolygate was expressing as well, identified by:

...I do hope you realize that Roly was speaking from the perspective of the other side - if we vapers were to collectively shut up (I.e, dying, not "getting a seat at the table", etc), their job would get much easier.

As you can see, he's been at this quite a while. If you find the other side disgusting and infuriating, imagine how he feels.

But again, I'm pretty certain that wasn't directed at you (well, it is being directed at us, but not coming from Roly).

My emphasis in bold.

Don't leave, man. I didn't take offense at any of his post, and neither should you. Think of the children context


Moving on:

There are some things you can do:

- Don't die or shut up, keep shouting about the oppression (this isn't simply injustice, it's oppression - when the FDA regs come in, you'll begin to appreciate that).

I'm getting over the dying part - and the more I read (as an admittedly brand new person to vaping), the more I don't want to shut up about it. I have smokers in my life that I want to share all this with, and yeah, it's frustrating to see it being shot down soon as I discover it. As I demonstrated in one of the FDA forum threads, I do need shut up (sometimes) and keep reading.

- Join your national consumer association for ecigs, and help them with their work fighting corrupt laws.

Already done. I joined the CASAA mailing list shortly after I joined here. Been waiting for emails, but the key word here is initiative. Dumb question (but again, the dumbest question is the one never asked): I'm in Illinois. Can I email legislators outside my jurisdiction, say New York, when something dumb is sent for passage there?

- See if you *really* mean it about crowdfunding, and get together with others who can see what the real problem is (it certainly isn't research, we have enough to stretch to the moon and back); what is needed is a national info campaign in the major media to refute the torrent of lies.

Here's where I get into woulda/coulda/shoulda - due to impetuous youth, I followed my rock music muse instead of staying in school - this is where a journalism degree could have come in handy (my initial interest was simply in radio and TV production).

I'm a decent writer - indeed, I own a copy of The Chicago Manual of Style (but I don't always follow it out of license ) - where I need coaching is with editing (see just about every post I make here and elsewhere online). What I would love to do is offer my services as a writer, but at this point, I'm so new to things here in Vape World that I'm overlooking the obvious - there's a lot more people better at this than me (us?).

My services would be better off as just being a messenger / ambassador (which I intend to do with my eGrip, and have made minor inroads already to same). But you're right - instead of throwing money at studies, we should be throwing money at public awareness of vaping. I can promise you I'll be looking into this further, and moreover, having a fire lit to act on it.


Anyway... back on topic. Sorry for the digression. Healthy discourse, at least.

 

[DrMA]

@DrMA
Thanks.

It's important to keep repeating that research, health or whatever are virtually irrelevant. This is about cancelling the gravy train and putting all the parasites who depend on it out of a job. Everyone from state AGs down has a personal interest in protecting the status quo, and they are far better at the propaganda game than the people on our side with any funds. We're getting seven shades of **** kicked out of us, and all we seem to be able to do is talk about even more research. Everything can apparently be fixed by 'more research'.

The other side are laughing all the way to the bank about what incompetent, disorganised berks we are. The research carrot seems to work like magic - it creates instant blindness and contagious stupidity. It's a winner.

At what point, I wonder, will our side realise they've been had and it's too late? When there are 10 million studies that show vaping is harmless compared to smoking? No, that probably won't be enough - we'll need more.

It's sad to see how naive and ineffective advocates or business people are when faced with ace propagandists. One master of propaganda is worth a million research studies and every vaping advocate out there.

In all fairness, a lot of individual advocates have been taking this exact approach on social media. We share existing research and ridicule TC agitprop including "we just don't know" garbage and calls for more research. We also point out TC acts like a religious cult or terrorist org and are only interested in continued tobacco-derived funding at the expense of 1.24B smokers' lives.

I do agree, however, we could use a high-profile organization to crystalize a coherent message, do proper PR, and fund lobbying.

 

[nopatch]

To make it perfectly clear so there are no ambiguities...

If you vape with a setup that vaporizes liquid faster than it can wick you WILL get dry hits.
And if you keep on vaping with that setup at the same rate, your dry hits will get worse and worse and worse.

Machines do not detect this situation and adjust for it.
People do.

That is quite correct.

From the
nejm. org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069
nejm link description it appears vaporization was not high.Not high enough to cause dry hits.

It reads "(10 50-ml puffs over 5 minutes; 3 to 4 seconds per puff). With each puff, 5 to 11 mg of e-liquid was consumed, and 2 to 6 mg of liquid was collected".

Perhaps the ecig scientists laugh like Dr F. could collaborate with the university scientists and offer a propah vaping setup instead of throwing a fit and dissing the study.