Brace yourselves new Formaldehype junk study to be released Jan 21

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MrSparkle

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I read this whole thread last night, and was going to bang the like button so many times on so many posts. I'll just let this post say why.

Many years ago I went through a heavy Kurt Vonnegut phase, and immediately latched onto this quote, and held it dear (up until about 3 weeks ago):

“The public health authorities never mention the main reason many Americans have for smoking heavily, which is that smoking is a fairly sure, fairly honorable form of suicide.”

I remember reading on or via ECF that it's been shown that folks with mental health issues and / or depression tend to smoke heavily. I know I did in the face of a long term, but basically undiagnosed and untreated depression. I'll spare the gory detail.

I also remember reading that nicotine in and of itself can potentially help with those issues, and it's perhaps why folks with mental illness or depression do smoke so heavily - they're self-medicating.

At first I was just angry about junk science like this, for the usual "look at how effed up our country operates". But vaping allowed me to step back from cigarettes and take a closer look at myself - and indeed, I'm more angry now at thinking that our country needs to step back from itself and look at why we smoke cigarettes, and why we've allowed our economy to build on it, and why a burgeoning cottage industry is being squashed, the likes of which our country's foundation is supposed to be encouraging.

All I know is this:

- I've learned so much here at ECF - about why I smoked, what nicotine really is, the definitions of "addiction" vs. "dependence" (their real-life definitions in context, not just textbook definitions), and most importantly - just how benign vaping is (or at least appears to be). I've quite literally been gifted this opportunity to quit cigarettes like I've never quit before, and I have ECF, its members, CASAA, et al to thank greatly.

- Vaping is going to save my life, at least in the near to mid term, mentally as well as physically - because of the constant stigma mental health issues carry (including depression), I'm thinking there's way more more people like me who are unaddressed as to why they continue(d) to smoke in the face of all that's wrong with it. Those are the people media and government should be first concerned with, over the BS "what about the kids" arguments.

- I just wish I was in a better financial state where I could afford to throw money at pro-vaping entities to overcome BT / BP / BG clout and cash. It really seems the only way out of this is to fight fire with fire - or at least with a few quality science studies (as opposed to junk science). One word does come to mind: crowdfunding. I would happily throw $20, $50, $100 to know a thorough, objective study was being conducted. But this is looking like "too little too late".

- With what little money I have, I'm going to my local B&M (Cignot) after this to chill out and hang for a little bit and buy some stuff to do the first rebuilds in my two eGrips' RBAs up right tonight.
 

shreduhsoreus

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This is awesome, mainly because I guarantee this got a lot of coverage and will continue to. Also because a lot of the idiots who don't want to try to understand new things also watch Fox News, so they'll see this and be like "Oh, that DOES make sense".

I'm actually really surprised that out of all the mainstream news sources, THEY were the ones to look at it rationally and think about it critically instead of riding with the story like they(and pretty much all mainstream news sources) usually do.
 

nopatch

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More details of the study.

[url. nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069

Here we present results of an analysis of commercial e-liquid vaporized with the use of a “tank system” e-cigarette featuring a variable-voltage battery. The aerosolized liquid was collected in an NMR spectroscopy tube (10 50-ml puffs over 5 minutes; 3 to 4 seconds per puff). With each puff, 5 to 11 mg of e-liquid was consumed, and 2 to 6 mg of liquid was collected. At low voltage (3.3 V), we did not detect the formation of any formaldehyde-releasing agents (estimated limit of detection, approximately 0.1 μg per 10 puffs). At high voltage (5.0 V), a mean (±SE) of 380±90 μg per sample (10 puffs) of formaldehyde was detected as formaldehyde-releasing agents. ....


50-ml puffs taken over 4 seconds doesn't result in any overheating. Dr F. is clearly clueless.
 
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Kent C

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More details of the study.

[url. nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069]MMS: Error

Here we present results of an analysis of commercial e-liquid vaporized with the use of a “tank system” e-cigarette featuring a variable-voltage battery. The aerosolized liquid was collected in an NMR spectroscopy tube (10 50-ml puffs over 5 minutes; 3 to 4 seconds per puff). With each puff, 5 to 11 mg of e-liquid was consumed, and 2 to 6 mg of liquid was collected. At low voltage (3.3 V), we did not detect the formation of any formaldehyde-releasing agents (estimated limit of detection, approximately 0.1 μg per 10 puffs). At high voltage (5.0 V), a mean (±SE) of 380±90 μg per sample (10 puffs) of formaldehyde was detected as formaldehyde-releasing agents. ....


50-ml puffs taken over 4 seconds doesn't result in any overheating. Dr F. is clearly clueless.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the study you linked was not by Dr. F.
 
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Kent C

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Encouraging users to prefer low voltage vaping is the way to go.I don't understand why these people with poor scientific and comprehensions skills are misleading people.

It's not voltage as much as temperature. Although low voltage will give you lower heat, temperature control boards now exist to keep coils from overheating.
 

LaraC

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My favorite quote from that link is:

"It took us multiple weeks to figure out what it was," Peyton said. "It was almost embarrassing. The molecules are so simple that they were almost too simple."

Peyton should be embarrassed, but for another reason.

He (and Pankow) should both be embarrassed about setting up a supposedly scientific study when they were so clueless about e-cigarette equipment, and about why real people vaping in the real world would not keep puffing burnt liquid the way their machine did.
 

Lessifer

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More details of the study.

[url. nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069]MMS: Error

Here we present results of an analysis of commercial e-liquid vaporized with the use of a “tank system” e-cigarette featuring a variable-voltage battery. The aerosolized liquid was collected in an NMR spectroscopy tube (10 50-ml puffs over 5 minutes; 3 to 4 seconds per puff). With each puff, 5 to 11 mg of e-liquid was consumed, and 2 to 6 mg of liquid was collected. At low voltage (3.3 V), we did not detect the formation of any formaldehyde-releasing agents (estimated limit of detection, approximately 0.1 μg per 10 puffs). At high voltage (5.0 V), a mean (±SE) of 380±90 μg per sample (10 puffs) of formaldehyde was detected as formaldehyde-releasing agents. ....


50-ml puffs taken over 4 seconds doesn't result in any overheating. Dr F. is clearly clueless.

If you've read any of the posts or linked rebuttals in this thread, or even used a CE4 style clearomizer, you would know that using one of those at 5v with a 2.1ohm coil provides almost 12w of power, which given the restrictive airflow of a CE4 would overheat that coil head beyond the point that any reasonable person would use it. Even at intervals of 3-4 second puffs. Clearly Dr. F is not the clueless one.
 
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DC2

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If you've read any of the posts or linked rebuttals in this thread, or even used a CE4 style clearomizer, you would know that using one of those at 5v with a 2.1ohm coil provides almost 12w of power, which given the restrictive airflow of a CE4 would overheat that coil head beyond the point that any reasonable person would use it. Even at intervals of 3-4 second puffs. Clearly Dr. F is not the clueless one.
I am fairly certain that their Electronic Cigarette Puffing Machine doesn't know how to tilt a clearomizer when it isn't wicking fast enough.
 

nopatch

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If you've read any of the posts or linked rebuttals in this thread, or even used a CE4 style clearomizer, you would know that using one of those at 5v with a 2.1ohm coil provides almost 12w of power, which given the restrictive airflow of a CE4 would overheat that coil head beyond the point that any reasonable person would use it. Even at intervals of 3-4 second puffs. Clearly Dr. F is not the clueless one.

I read quite a bit and understand that dr F. referred to a reddit thread and drawn his conclusions.

Reddit thread

As per the same reddit thread it seems some ecig users are using similar setup at same conditions without getting dry hits.
 
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nopatch

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My favorite quote from that link is:

"It took us multiple weeks to figure out what it was," Peyton said. "It was almost embarrassing. The molecules are so simple that they were almost too simple."

Peyton should be embarrassed, but for another reason.

People who do actual scientific studies have the luxury to admit to embarassment unlike some half baked doctor assistant doing DIY lab experiments like a junior school teacher and generally clueless about what he is measuring.

He (and Pankow) should both be embarrassed about setting up a supposedly scientific study when they were so clueless about e-cigarette equipment, and about why real people vaping in the real world would not keep puffing burnt liquid the way their machine did.

The reddit post and dr F's assumptions.
 

DC2

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Their puffing machine seems to wick ok at 3 volts :laugh: .
It also seems you don't understand the concept of wicking very well.
The more juice you vaporize the faster your wicking material must work in order to avoid dry hits.

I hope you at least understand that higher voltage creates higher temperature.
And that higher temperature vaporizes more liquid.
 

Lessifer

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I read quite a bit and understand that dr F. referred to a reddit thread and drawn his conclusions.

Reddit thread

As per the same reddit thread it seems some ecig users are using similar setup at same conditions without getting dry hits.

Actually, in the reddit thread you linked to, the users who were not experiencing dry hits at 1.7ohm and 13w are using a LEMO RTA, a rebuildable tank atomizer with vacuum/gravity fed wicking and larger airflow than a CE4 clearomizer. That is the point, vaping at 13w is not the issue, it's vaping at the proper wattage for your equipment.
 

nopatch

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It also seems you don't understand the concept of wicking very well.
The more juice you vaporize the faster your wicking material must work in order to avoid dry hits.

I hope you at least understand that higher voltage creates higher temperature.
And that higher temperature vaporizes more liquid.

It appears so :p .I mean about my understanding.
 

DC2

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To make it perfectly clear so there are no ambiguities...

If you vape with a setup that vaporizes liquid faster than it can wick you WILL get dry hits.
And if you keep on vaping with that setup at the same rate, your dry hits will get worse and worse and worse.

Machines do not detect this situation and adjust for it.
People do.
 
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