Can vaping cause cancer

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AndriaD

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The argument is dumb because breathing the air is an unavoidable risk, vaping on the other hand is an avoidable risk.

You can't avoid going outside and breathing city air, you can avoid picking up a vape. Comparing the two is like comparing the potential risk from dying in a bungie jumping accident (avoidable risk) versus getting a brain aneurysm (unavoidable).

Somewhat, but not entirely -- your argument is a great deal like the ANTZ argument to smokers: "you could just quit." :facepalm:

If one is vaping in order to not smoke, then no, it's not avoidable at all -- it's the cure for the problem! Comparing vapor to air is perfectly legitimate, since "regular air" contains a great many more potentially risky substances than e-cig vapor does.

But I'm getting really tired of this "you could just quit" nonsense. If that really was an option, I'd have done it DECADES ago. Unfortunately, e-cigs are the ONLY thing that has ever worked to separate me from cigarettes, so no, not avoidable at all -- unless I wanted to go back to smoking -- which I absolutely do not, but without vapor, I'm almost certain I would.

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nyiddle

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your argument is a great deal like the ANTZ argument

Called that, though it took longer than I thought.

Now before people inevitably jump down my throat for being an "ANTZ" (and I'm not -- I've been a vaper for nearly 2 years, and I'm all for a safer alternative to smoking) I'm not saying e-cigarettes definitely cause cancer. I'm saying that in an abnormal situation, they CAN produce carcinogens.
...
PS: I hate this argument because everyone gets twisted up in their emotions and passion and what they want to be true. Let's be reasonable, scientific, and honest here: The evidence doesn't exist yet.
 

AndriaD

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Called that, though it took longer than I thought.

You might want to reread what I wrote; I didn't call you an ANTZ, I said your "it's avoidable" argument is a great deal like their "you could just quit" argument -- but you didn't reply to that, just assumed that I called you an ANTZ.

Both arguments essentially fly in the face of reality; if you're a decades-long smoker, "you could just quit" is completely unrealistic; if you're a decades-long smoker who's managed to switch entirely to vaping, "it's avoidable" is also unrealistic, for someone who doesn't want to go back to smoking. Both arguments, along with being unrealistic, are completely callous.

Andria
 

Vaslovik

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ANTZ and BT would certainly like you to believe vaping causes cancer, and I'm quite sure they are doing all they can to promote and further that idea. Vaping has drastically impacted their profits, and even while they claim vaping causes cancer they are doing all they can to own all vaping in the form of closed system cigalike vapes they have total control over, and seeking to ban all open system vaping, i.e. all your atomizers, mods, juices, etc.

Want to know where the vaping/cancer idea came from? Follow the money.
 
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AXIOM_1

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    You can't avoid going outside and breathing city air, you can avoid picking up a vape.

    I see what you're saying but even that is not 100% correct ... People, most certainly can avoid breathing city air.... just move to the Country where the air is less polluted. The really funny part is that the vast majority of our Country (the world even) is composed of either uninhabited remote areas or nice farm land yet most folks it seems think that cities are all there is in the world.

    Personally (and this is just my thoughts), I think that we did a number on ourselves when the first light switch was ever flipped. Why do I say that? I have done much research on this very subject over the years and also listened to many experts on the subject. Basically, and in a nutshell, I blame industrialization for most of our problems. Technology appears to be a double edged sword. On the one hand it is marvelous and provides us with comforts and abilities. On the other hand, we have created a situation to where our foods have way less vitamins and minerals than what our bodies should have, which in turn lowers our immunity. This isn't even counting all of the toxins and other junk that modern food manufacturing is putting into our food. Lowered immunity provides an avenue for many cancers to start. I am not even counting all of the lack of exercise and other bad habits that have been fostered by technology. But, since we are talking about cancer, I am focused on it only and not cardiovascular maladies from lack of exercise. Of course, then there is constant bombarding on the body from all types of radiations that never existed 4 or 5 decades ago, constant exposures to toxic chemicals etc ...

    It's quite obvious to an old duffer, such as myself, that something is really wrong with this picture. When I was a teenager, and even in my mid 20's it was unheard of to hear of a young kid getting cancer. Now days, it is very common. The rates of ALL types of cancers are through the roof and almost half of us will develop cancer some time in our lives. That is insane! A once dreaded (it still is) disease that was RARE to see most folks ever get and almost impossible to see in children, is now within the last 4 decades, become common place for both adults and children. If you study timeline graphs of industrial innovations and compare those to timeline graphs of cancer rates, you will notice a marked correlation.

    As for vaping, yes, people can avoid vaping as that is a simple choice. Who knows if it causes cancer? I certainly don't know.... But what I do know for a fact is that tobacco smoking 100% causes cancer. So, by deciding to vape, a person is taking a bit of a gamble. There is not evidence that it causes cancer but on the other hand, there is no evidence that it doesn't cause cancer. As mentioned before here, the problem is that vaping has not been around very long and so the consequences of vaping for doing it long term are not known by anyone. It may be that doing it for 20 or 30 years causes cancer but on the other hand that may not be the case either. Only time will tell and until people have vaped for that long of a time period, we are all just taking a gamble and jumping into the unknown.
     

    nyiddle

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    You might want to reread what I wrote; I didn't call you an ANTZ, I said your "it's avoidable" argument is a great deal like their "you could just quit" argument -- but you didn't reply to that, just assumed that I called you an ANTZ.

    Both arguments essentially fly in the face of reality; if you're a decades-long smoker, "you could just quit" is completely unrealistic; if you're a decades-long smoker who's managed to switch entirely to vaping, "it's avoidable" is also unrealistic, for someone who doesn't want to go back to smoking. Both arguments, along with being unrealistic, are completely callous.

    Andria

    The arguments aren't nearly as deluded as the underlying notion that "breathing air is worse for you than vaping," primarily because there's a huge lack of research. Beyond that, there are certain known risks associated with vaping -- things that many people aren't that educated about.

    Comparing vapor to air is perfectly legitimate, since "regular air" contains a great many more potentially risky substances than e-cig vapor does.

    Many juice manufacturers don't really care about diketones and most people aren't aware that burning your e-liquid can produce harmful, carcinogenic aldehydes. When I'm walking around in the street I'm FULLY confident I'm not inhaling 10x my recommended daily dose of diacetyl/AP, whereas when I'm vaping it's very possible that I am.

    So the bottom line is risk management/avoidance, right? You quit smoking because it's a known risk (agreeably pretty high in terms of risk), and instead you picked up vaping. Vaping is pretty much an unknown in terms of how dangerous it could be, but we can pretty safely assume that it carries less risk than smoking. On the complete opposite end of the risk scale is "breathing air," something that people have been doing for hundreds of years, both with and without carcinogens/pollution. (In fact, despite steadily/exponentially rising population/pollution/etc., average life expectancy has literally doubled since the 1920's.)

    Where do you get the evidence to make any rational, logical, scientific claims that vaping is as safe (or safer) than breathing regular air? Is it just common sense?
     

    zoiDman

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    Can vaping cause cancer?

    Before this goes much further, shouldn't One Fundamental Question be Asked?

    What is Vaping?

    Is Vaping using a .5ml/day of Unflavored 3mg/ml in a Clearo at 6 watts?

    Or is Vaping doing 9ml/day of Heavily Flavored, Neon Green, 28mg/ml in a Quad Coil RDA running at 70 Watts?

    Or maybe it is something in between?

    My Latin isn't what it Once was, but I seem to remember Reading this somewhere... ''sola dosis facit venenum''.

    And it sure would be Nice if we All Used the Same Exact flavoring chemicals.
     
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    AndriaD

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    The arguments aren't nearly as deluded as the underlying notion that "breathing air is worse for you than vaping," primarily because there's a huge lack of research. Beyond that, there are certain known risks associated with vaping -- things that many people aren't that educated about.



    Many juice manufacturers don't really care about diketones and most people aren't aware that burning your e-liquid can produce harmful, carcinogenic aldehydes. When I'm walking around in the street I'm FULLY confident I'm not inhaling 10x my recommended daily dose of diacetyl/AP, whereas when I'm vaping it's very possible that I am.

    So the bottom line is risk management/avoidance, right? You quit smoking because it's a known risk (agreeably pretty high in terms of risk), and instead you picked up vaping. Vaping is pretty much an unknown in terms of how dangerous it could be, but we can pretty safely assume that it carries less risk than smoking. On the complete opposite end of the risk scale is "breathing air," something that people have been doing for hundreds of years, both with and without carcinogens/pollution. (In fact, despite steadily/exponentially rising population/pollution/etc., average life expectancy has literally doubled since the 1920's.)

    Where do you get the evidence to make any rational, logical, scientific claims that vaping is as safe (or safer) than breathing regular air? Is it just common sense?

    Well, there's no formaldehyde for one thing, since I don't burn my wicks, but in any dwelling with carpet, there is a background level of formaldehyde, and in some places, a great deal more than mere background. In vaping, there is nothing burning (if one is doing it correctly!), but the products of every kind of pyrolysis are in the air everywhere -- cars, trucks, the neighbor's trash fire, industry, etc. We've gotten used to the idea of cars and trucks, so they've become somewhat invisible, but there is definitely burning going on, and burning any products of dead dinosaurs is very far from non-toxic.

    That's just for starters, right off the top of my head. I seldom use the "common sense" argument for anything, because there is nothing so uncommon as 'common sense,' nowadays. But I really don't need to go find "evidence" of all the other nastiness present in the air that a large majority breathes on a daily basis; the vast majority in the US live within 50-100 miles of some kind of city, where the pyrolysis products are GOING TO BE present, there is no escaping it.

    The *only* real potential risks with vaping, for *most* people, are going to be found in the flavors, simply because we don't yet know what regular, frequent, direct inhalation of those flavors will do -- maybe nothing, maybe lots of bad -- we don't know yet. But the other components of e-cig vapor, for the vast majority of people, are non-toxic -- they may have sensitivity issues, as I do with VG, or as others do with PG, but that doesn't really constitute a toxin; I suppose it's more on the order of an allergen, it causes an unpleasant response despite the non-toxic nature of the substance.

    I think the real point of the whole thing is, there's really nothing GENERALLY TOXIC in vapor -- saving those nasty diketones -- while there is a great deal of GENERALLY TOXIC out there in the air -- if most of us are managing to breathe that air without ill effect, then it just stands to reason that vaping will not cause ill effect either. I did not say 'common sense,' I applied logic.

    Andria
     

    mauricem00

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    The argument is dumb because breathing the air is an unavoidable risk, vaping on the other hand is an avoidable risk.

    You can't avoid going outside and breathing city air, you can avoid picking up a vape. Comparing the two is like comparing the potential risk from dying in a bungie jumping accident (avoidable risk) versus getting a brain aneurysm (unavoidable).
    apparently you do not recognize sarcasm.I am sorry but I just can't relate to all this paranoia and fear about vaping. I sometimes wonder if the people trying to spread this fear are working for BP or BT and are being paid to attack vaping in these chat rooms.given a choice between smoking and vaping any rational person would chose vaping. it is clearly much safer than smoking and I did manage to avoid breathing city air by moving out of the city. some of the people I worked with drove 90 miles a day to get to work so that they could live in a better environment so it is clearly an avoidable risk.
     

    AXIOM_1

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    The arguments aren't nearly as deluded as the underlying notion that "breathing air is worse for you than vaping,"

    I agree with you on this point. In my days on earth I have lived in both remote, rural, areas and Cities. Generally speaking the air is far superior in remote areas than in cities and you can visually see smog in cities with your eyeballs. However, I have also witnessed many people in rural areas develop lung cancer and they never smoked before but yet they lived in an area with better quality air than what you find in most cities. So you see, non-smokers who live in rural environments also get lung cancer. That being the case it would be faulty to say that "breathing air is worse for you than vaping". If you were to say that breathing air in LARGE CITIES is worse for you than vaping, then even though there is no proof of that, it would seem partially logical. On the other hand, if you stated that breathing air is worse for you in CLEANER RURAL AREAS, then logically, this would not make any sense and also there would be no proof to support it. Since non-smokers both in polluted urban areas and remote rural areas both get cancer, there may be some other catalyst at work. The problem with cancer and the environment is that there are too many variables that are at work that are synergistic which makes it difficult to pin down single factors. Vaping on the other hand is something you do that puts clouds of vapor into your lungs no matter if you live in a rural area or city. It is an intentional act by the user.

    And like zoiDman mentioned, vaping is done differently by each person who vapers and so where is the "vaping standard" ? The folks against vaping forgot to mention about that. It seems to me like they are trying to suggest that ANY amount or type of vaping is harmful. Of course, this is stupid on their part because if any type of vaping, in any amount, is harmful then they need to state that and provide the facts of why they say that.
     

    mauricem00

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    are you aware that smoking is the only addiction for which a genetic link has been found. the same genetic "defect" is found in schizophrenics and Alzheimer victims and was actually discovered in an Alzheimer research project.this genetic "defect" results in low serotonin production and nicotine is the only drug that has been found that stimulates serotonin production.this would explain the personality change that is often seen in ex-smokers.vaping is the safest way to address this deficiency. long term use of serotonin uptake inhibitors or other pharmaceuticals use to address this problem have far worse side effects. so vaping is not an avoidable risk for many smokers.
     

    AXIOM_1

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    Just another thing :) ..... I like what everyone on this thread has mentioned as all are valid points and most are not too far in disagreement with each other. The simple fact of the matter is that we are all here because we KNOW the dangers of tobacco and wanted to escape it. This of course, must mean that each of us internally knows, or assumes, that vaping is safer, otherwise we would still be smoking instead of vaping. The entire problem stems from the fact that none of us knows the long term consequences of vaping. Simple as that.

    We can deliberate and expound upon what we think may be bad/good about vaping but until medical FACTS from researchers start to appear none of us really knows and we are all just "assuming".

    yes, mauricem00 I know of the facts which you speak of and yes I am also aware of the consequences of anti-depressant drugs and the like. You are 100% correct with that post.
     
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    mauricem00

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    Just another thing :) ..... I like what everyone on this thread has mentioned as all are valid points and most are not too far in disagreement with each other. The simple fact of the matter is that we are all here because we KNOW the dangers of tobacco and wanted to escape it. This of course, must mean that each of us internally knows, or assumes, that vaping is safer, otherwise we would still be smoking instead of vaping. The entire problem stems from the fact that none of us knows the long term consequences of vaping. Simple as that.

    We can deliberate and expound upon what we think may be bad/good about vaping but until medical FACTS from researchers start to appear none of us really knows and we are all just "assuming".

    yes, mauricem00 I know of the facts which you speak of and yes I am also aware of the consequences of anti-depressant drugs and the like. You are 100% correct with that post.
    you are correct but solid medical evidence will not be available for decades. in the mean time propaganda from BT,BP and some government agencies and activist groups is convincing many smokers to continue smoking. if this propaganda is not countered with the best evidence and arguments available at this time many people will die needlessly from ignorance and fear.vaping has been around for 10 years and there is still no body count like with smoking.
     

    AXIOM_1

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    you are correct but solid medical evidence will not be available for decades. in the mean time propaganda from BT,BP and some government agencies and activist groups is convincing many smokers to continue smoking. if this propaganda is not countered with the best evidence and arguments available at this time many people will die needlessly from ignorance and fear.vaping has been around for 10 years and there is still no body count like with smoking.

    Yep I agree with you 100% .... I watched that idiotic Doctor on the Greg Gutfeld show and she blasted vaping and all without providing any PROOF or FACTS in her claims. Anyone who doesn't provide their sources to the facts or claims cannot be trusted.
     

    AndriaD

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    Yep I agree with you 100% .... I watched that idiotic Doctor on the Greg Gutfeld show and she blasted vaping and all without providing any PROOF or FACTS in her claims. Anyone who doesn't provide their sources to the facts or claims cannot be trusted.

    Was she a total bimbo, or what? Like everyone is supposed to bow to her "superior knowledge" because she has MD after her name? I'd be willing to bet she's never treated a single patient, and certainly never had to shepherd a smoker thru all the health issues of their lives, as real *practicing* doctors do -- she's all theory (erroneous theory, at that!) and zero substance.

    Andria
     

    AXIOM_1

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    Was she a total bimbo, or what? Like everyone is supposed to bow to her "superior knowledge" because she has MD after her name? I'd be willing to bet she's never treated a single patient, and certainly never had to shepherd a smoker thru all the health issues of their lives, as real *practicing* doctors do -- she's all theory (erroneous theory, at that!) and zero substance.

    Andria


    Yes, she was indeed a total bimbo for sure lol ... Yes, you are also correct about MD being after her name... Just because a person has an MD after their name does not mean they keep up with the latest in research. I am willing to bet that most folks who have been on this forum for awhile and have read lots of threads have far more knowledge and facts about vaping than that Woman has. Did you notice how when she said vaping is harmful that she never once said HOW much vaping is harmful? In other words, they want all people to think that ANY amount of vaping is harmful. They also want to push the idea that patches, chantix and the like are the "safe" way to get off of tobacco. What a load of you know what lol... You and I both know that big Pharma has their greedy little fingers in smoking cessation products. The things that MD was touting were things which she provided NO PROOF of let alone tell us where she got her info. We are just supposed to believe her because she wears a white smock and has a stethoscope around her neck. What a joke.
     

    AndriaD

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    Yes, she was indeed a total bimbo for sure lol ... Yes, you are also correct about MD being after her name... Just because a person has an MD after their name does not mean they keep up with the latest in research. I am willing to bet that most folks who have been on this forum for awhile and have read lots of threads have far more knowledge and facts about vaping than that Woman has. Did you notice how when she said vaping is harmful that she never once said HOW much vaping is harmful? In other words, they want all people to think that ANY amount of vaping is harmful. They also want to push the idea that patches, chantix and the like are the "safe" way to get off of tobacco. What a load of you know what lol... You and I both know that big Pharma has their greedy little fingers in smoking cessation products. The things that MD was touting were things which she provided NO PROOF of let alone tell us where she got her info. We are just supposed to believe her because she wears a white smock and has a stethoscope around her neck. What a joke.

    I wonder if Gutfeld picked her just so he could ogle her "physical assets"; she seemed quite gifted with those, despite an utter lack of anything between her ears. :D

    Andria
     
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    AXIOM_1

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    lol .... yes, the problem with males is they are very visual creatures and Gutfeld is a male .. Me being a male myself, I usually take notice of a hot Woman's "assets" but in this particular case, I truly didn't even notice because I was too busy being in awe by the fact that she was busy trying to brainwash all of the viewers..... She is either listening to the false studies (which she thinks are correct) that have been done and truly believes the bill of goods that she has been sold, or she is simply the type of person that spouts off things in an attempt to make people think that she is wiser than she really is. Either way, the things she was spouting off have already been debunked from other sources I have read. So what she was pushing was FALSE and was not supported by any facts .... now if she had came onto his show, stated the new facts and discoveries and then told the audience the names and places of the studies and where to find them then that would be an entirely different thing. If that would have been the case, then I would have looked up the claims that were being touted and discovered them to maybe be factual. I would then at that point in time, determine if I dared to keep vaping or not with my new found knowledge of the harmful effects. But, like I have just mentioned, none of that happened on his show and the things she touted are indeed not 100% facts and some came from faulty experiments.
     

    mauricem00

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    I wonder if Gutfeld picked her just so he could ogle her "physical assets"; she seemed quite gifted with those, despite an utter lack of anything between her ears. :D

    Andria
    maybe she worked her way through school on her back.:lol:she clearly does not understand science and I would not trust her to provide me with medical assistance.
     

    AndriaD

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    maybe she worked her way through school on her back.:lol:she clearly does not understand science and I would not trust her to provide me with medical assistance.

    Yeah, I thought she seemed more "Keeping up with the (gag) Kardashians" than medical school. :facepalm: Maybe Gutfeld picked her because her "arguments" (which seemed far more "rote parroting" than actual arguments) were so transparently stupid.

    Andria
     
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