CDC Finally Saying Stop Vaping THC

[DaveP]

Yes, thanks to MADD, you can barely have 1 drink and drive home and be legal.

Tell me about it. Back when I was playing in a band on weekends we'd always have to have a designated driver. You certainly don't want the wrong person driving a Suburban and pulling a trailer on the freeway, especially after the gig at 3am.

 

[jandrew]

...
That may or may not be. My point is only, and innocently [I think], that what the CDC "knows" and such is a completely different animal than what they can professionally SAY as epidemiologists.

You I and maybe they are playing the odds. Do I think that some bias may have creeped into their statements? Probably. Humans, eh? But when I read their stuff I read it almost mathematically, analytically, and what I hope is objectively.
...

Dr S. thinks differently than you about what the CDC can and does say during other outbreaks compared to this one ... see his piece from back on Sept 17th:

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco and Alcohol News Analysis and Commentary: Despite Increasing Clarity in Role of Illicit THC Vape Carts in Lung Injury Outbreak, CDC Violating Its Own Principles to Blame E-Cigarettes

Of note:

Don't let the CDC fool you. What they're not telling you is that in epidemiological outbreak investigations, we almost never identify a single exposure that ties together all of the cases. This is why we calculate odds ratios to estimate the strength of association between the exposure and the cases. If every single case was associated with a single exposure, then it wouldn't take an epidemiological analysis to identify the source of the outbreak.

I defy you to find a single other CDC outbreak investigation in which the agency emphasized that "the investigation has not identified any specific exposure that is linked to all cases." The failure to find a 100% link between a single exposure and every single case is the norm in outbreak investigations and never precludes the CDC from concluding that a highly common exposure is a likely source. Except in this investigation.

He also criticizes the CDC back on Sept 8 for failing to recommend urine testing for THC in all suspected cases in its alert to clinicians on the Health Alert Network --- a recommendation that would have provided proper exposure discrimination.

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco and Alcohol News Analysis and Commentary: The Most Telling Sign that CDC is Protecting Illicit Marijuana Drug Dealers While Doing Everything it Can to Pin this Outbreak on Traditional E-Cigarettes

 

[AttyPops]

Yep, and I made a reference to his article.

To be fair to you and your point, Dr. S did say that he worked in the CDC at the same department, and he would have done this differently.

I could have been more broad.

I'm not saying the CDC is addressing this in the best way possible. I am saying I "read into" it less vitriol than some here.

I think in the end that we're basically agreeing that the current hype is largely misfocused, and that (I hope we agree) there are multiple agenda going on here at once.

 

[AttyPops]

Speaking of "protecting mj dealers"...

The same week our ban took effect in MI, in Grand Rapids they had a cannabis expo. Now, to be logical, that expo was planned way ahead of this current vaping epidemic, as it takes months to book and set up venues like this. But still, the irony here couldn't be thicker.

https://www.wmcannabisexpo.com/attend

Now, I probably shouldn't associate this disease outbreak with the reputable cannabis vendors either. That might be just as unfair as associating it with nic-vaping. BUT....the distinction line is a bit more blurred with even legal dispensaries. There are reports that the legal non-street side may have had this issue too. It's hard to tell, due I assume to dual-users (both legit and street THC).

But yeah, there's got to be some big $$$ (and I suspect tax dollars) associated with this. If not now, soon to come.

Meanwhile we nic vapers get thrown under the bus.

 

[Eskie]

I didn't know MI had legalized cannabis use. Glad to know the expo is on despite the THC cartridge suspicions, but flavors are banned as a public health emergency

 

[stols001]

The CDC has hated vaping for a long time. I know this by looking at some of their teen "fact sheets on vaping" when I was collecting stuff to give out at my job. They were rather, ah, strident.

That must have been almost a year ago and like I did not check the publication date (nor did I print any to hand out.)

Anna

 

[AttyPops]

I didn't know MI had legalized cannabis use. Glad to know the expo is on despite the THC cartridge suspicions, but flavors are banned as a public health emergency
View attachment 843035

IKR?

And yeah, we legalized it. I even voted for legalization. I did it mostly due to the justice-system aspects of it, since it's used to bust people, and the cops were dead-set against legalizing it as it provided them a "tool" to use (IMO) and I think their tools should be more straightforward.

I'm concerned about DWI, and about things like the black market. I suppose I now have some blood on my hands, in a way, due to the deaths/illnesses presumably from the street stuff. That saddens me. IDK if any lives are saved due to the un-vilification of it though.

My personal opinion is
I don't use it nor seek it
I think a lot of the CBD stuff is either hype, or it's THC sneaking in and numbing people so as to mask symptoms of illness as needed (like CBD isn't necessarily pure). Or it's the placebo effect. But there is research (limited due to Schedule-1) on it pharmacologically. Most of the historical use has been when combined with THC (and less potent strains).

I stay away from it, as I don't need another bad habit. But frankly, I think the criminalization is a net-negative.

And now I have blood on my hands. And like I said, I'm sad about that.

 

[Horselady154]

Speaking of "protecting mj dealers"...

The same week our ban took effect in MI, in Grand Rapids they had a cannabis expo. Now, to be logical, that expo was planned way ahead of this current vaping epidemic, as it takes months to book and set up venues like this. But still, the irony here couldn't be thicker.

https://www.wmcannabisexpo.com/attend

Now, I probably shouldn't associate this disease outbreak with the reputable cannabis vendors either. That might be just as unfair as associating it with nic-vaping. BUT....the distinction line is a bit more blurred with even legal dispensaries. There are reports that the legal non-street side may have had this issue too. It's hard to tell, due I assume to dual-users (both legit and street THC).

But yeah, there's got to be some big $$$ (and I suspect tax dollars) associated with this. If not now, soon to come.

Meanwhile we nic vapers get thrown under the bus.

Although, several of those who have been hospitalized with lung issues have stated that they bought their THC carts from DISPENSARIES.

 

[Eskie]

IKR?

And yeah, we legalized it. I even voted for legalization. I did it mostly due to the justice-system aspects of it, since it's used to bust people, and the cops were dead-set against legalizing it as it provided them a "tool" to use (IMO) and I think their tools should be more straightforward.

I'm concerned about DWI, and about things like the black market. I suppose I now have some blood on my hands, in a way, due to the deaths/illnesses presumably from the street stuff. That saddens me. IDK if any lives are saved due to the un-vilification of it though.

My personal opinion is
I don't use it nor seek it
I think a lot of the CBD stuff is either hype, or it's THC sneaking in and numbing people so as to mask symptoms of illness as needed (like CBD isn't necessarily pure). Or it's the placebo effect. But there is research (limited due to Schedule-1) on it pharmacologically. Most of the historical use has been when combined with THC (and less potent strains).

I stay away from it, as I don't need another bad habit. But frankly, I think the criminalization is a net-negative.

And now I have blood on my hands. And like I said, I'm sad about that.

No, I believe legalization is appropriate, but these illnesses are not just occurring in locations where cannabis is legal. There really doesn't seem to be a direct connection (outside of a few cases that may have come from a legal dispensary product, but even that's not clear) between state laws affecting this problem. If anything, I would imagine higher rates in places where turning to black markets is the only option available to folks compared to legal market access..

 

[Horselady154]

IKR?

And yeah, we legalized it. I even voted for legalization. I did it mostly due to the justice-system aspects of it, since it's used to bust people, and the cops were dead-set against legalizing it as it provided them a "tool" to use (IMO) and I think their tools should be more straightforward.

I'm concerned about DWI, and about things like the black market. I suppose I now have some blood on my hands, in a way, due to the deaths/illnesses presumably from the street stuff. That saddens me. IDK if any lives are saved due to the un-vilification of it though.

My personal opinion is
I don't use it nor seek it
I think a lot of the CBD stuff is either hype, or it's THC sneaking in and numbing people so as to mask symptoms of illness as needed (like CBD isn't necessarily pure). Or it's the placebo effect. But there is research (limited due to Schedule-1) on it pharmacologically. Most of the historical use has been when combined with THC (and less potent strains).

I stay away from it, as I don't need another bad habit. But frankly, I think the criminalization is a net-negative.

And now I have blood on my hands. And like I said, I'm sad about that.

No, you don't. Letting people decide what to put in their own bodies, MJ, THC, etc. is a good thing, in my opinion. Those are not what is hospitalizing people. The problem here is that perhaps some dispensaries are screwing up and mixing THC with things they shouldn't be mixed with.

Even then, it appears most of the illnesses are coming from street drugs.

 

[zoiDman]

Although, several of those who have been hospitalized with lung issues have stated that they bought their THC carts from DISPENSARIES.

Here's the Thing...

If someone buys a THC Cart from a Legal Pot Shop, and then gets Sick, shouldn't there be a Very Easily Traceable route back to what the Problem is? Or at Worst, a Correlation Cluster of others who purchased the Same Carts from the Pot Shop?

You would Think then there would be Banner Headlines relating to this? But there has been Zero.

There is also this...

Here is the Problem with the Above Statement.

It is Based on what an Individual said they Used. Or for the cases of "Nicotine Only", what they said they Didn't Use.

This is called a "Fallacy of Foundation". That conclusions are Solely drawn from the Assumed Presumption that the Initial Premise is True.

But if the Premise is Not True, then all the Causality and All the Science that supports the Conclusion is False. And, of course, the Conclusion is False.

I think you will find that there is a Significantly Large segment of THC users who are Not willing to Admit publicly that they use THC. Especially in those who are Under 18. And Especially in States where THC use is Illegal.

There is a Stigma of THC use that many would like to Avoid when it comes to having their Children know. Or their Children's Teachers. Or their Boss. Or their Church. Or their ....

There is Also the Small issue that the Vast Majority of people who have gotten Sick or Died Have Said that they Did use THC. And this TCH has Overwhelmingly been reported that it came from illegal "Street Carts".

So I would be Very Cautious to lump Nicotine Only e-Cigarette User into this group of Individuals who have gotten Sick or have Died.

Unless the Intent is to throw Retail e-Cigarette Use under the Bus. In which case, All of these people getting Sick or have Died is the Perfect Bus.

Where you Replace the word "Nicotine" with the word "Dispensaries".

 

[AttyPops]

would imagine lower rates in places where turning to black markets is the only option available to folks.

Lower? Did you mean higher rates where street-stuff is the only option?

 

[Sloth Tonight]

No, you don't. Letting people decide what to put in their own bodies, MJ, THC, etc. is a good thing, in my opinion. Those are not what is hospitalizing people. The problem here is that perhaps some dispensaries are screwing up and mixing THC with things they shouldn't be mixed with.

Even then, it appears most of the illnesses are coming from street drugs.

Amen. It does appear some dispensary products may be causing illness as well, Oregon dispensaries being the main example. As horrible as that is, it can be fixed. The street variants will probably always be a danger.

 

[AttyPops]

A more balanced article from WSJ than what we've been seeing in the media lately.

What Adult Vapers Should Do Now

I like the last paragraph:

That is why some doctors worry that, if the problems turn out to be largely limited to cannabis, banning all vaping could shut down a valuable off-ramp for smokers. “I’m concerned we will throw the baby out with the bathwater,” says Nancy Rigotti, a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School and director of the tobacco research and treatment center at Massachusetts General Hospital.

 

[Eskie]

Lower? Did you mean higher rates where street-stuff is the only option?

Higher in banned states, yes. Lower in legalized states. Gotta go back and clarify, thanks for the catch!

 

[amoret]

I don't use it nor seek it
I think a lot of the CBD stuff is either hype, or it's THC sneaking in and numbing people so as to mask symptoms of illness as needed (like CBD isn't necessarily pure). Or it's the placebo effect. But there is research (limited due to Schedule-1) on it pharmacologically. Most of the historical use has been when combined with THC (and less potent strains).

I had considered trying CBD due to a large number of people in my online support groups for Transverse Myelitis saying that it does help for central neuropathic pain - which is notoriously difficult to control.* Vaping seemed to be a logical way of dosing since I'm obviously set up for it. But there is no common dosing amount or method, the online retailers won't list the ingredients and processing methods, and they seem to have no knowledge of vaping and vaping equipment. I was told on one site that the basic Ego setup they were selling for over $100 was needed to get complete benefits. I'm now kind of glad I gave up on trying it.

* To the point where I am currently spending half of my life asleep or drowsing because that's a major side effect of a medicine that actually does help dull the constant zapping and tingling.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

I had considered trying CBD due to a large number of people in my online support groups for Transverse Myelitis saying that it does help for central neuropathic pain - which is notoriously difficult to control.* Vaping seemed to be a logical way of dosing since I'm obviously set up for it. But there is no common dosing amount or method, the online retailers won't list the ingredients and processing methods, and they seem to have no knowledge of vaping and vaping equipment. I was told on one site that the basic Ego setup they were selling for over $100 was needed to get complete benefits. I'm now kind of glad I gave up on trying it.

* To the point where I am currently spending half of my life asleep or drowsing because that's a major side effect of a medicine that actually does help dull the constant zapping and tingling.

I'd suggest trying some oil orally, 10-20mg under the tongue daily to start and see if it helps at all.

 

[Eskie]

I'll second @Sloth Tonight at going for some sort of indigestible version. It's less expensive to start out, and certainly safer than vaping who know's what. The worst that'll happen is you buy gummies that are half the strength they were listed at and it doesn't work. Which does suck, but it's very unlikely to cause you any harm. I can't vouch for style or brand as I've never used it, but I know those who have to experience a good response.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

When I take CBD, I use Sunsoil (brand name). It has a good reputation, so I tried it and think it tastes great (I use the chocolate mint flavored oil). I can't speak to how it may relieve amoret's specific ailments. But I think it's a good, quality product. Just throwing it out there as a place to start researching if nothing else.

 

[casuald00d]

I'll quit vaping my dispensary purchased THC carts when one single illness in Denver can be tied to them. Until then...

It does make me happy to see they're reporting about the actual problem now. But then again the damage has already been done, they probably don't see much of a reason to keep blaming e-cigs.

so i don't know for sure what the quality control is like at your dispensary but i know some people with some serious machinery used to manufacture oil and fill carts that end up in dispensaries in my area. here's what i know: their quality control is a joke. while i've not seen them do it, i've been told that they sometimes use moldy herb to produce oil. taking an otherwise wrecked harvest and turning it into a 'usable' product... gross.

back in my home state, i know that the most popular dispensary in the area would send product out to be lab tested before selling it to patients. they'd test the levels of thc, cbd, etc and make sure that there weren't any contaminants. other dispensaries that i visited definitely did not do this.

while i'm not an everything-should-be-regulated kind of person, it would be nice, imo, if the industry were better regulated to ensure the safety of products sold. too many bad actors cutting corners and doing things that they shouldn't for the sake of profit at the expense of customers/patients.

but in short, not all carts are made the same and not all of the oil that goes into them is made the same. i've seen some really grimy oils stuffed in carts that i'd never-never-ever vape myself. it's wild out there.