Chemicals in e-cigarette flavors linked to respiratory disease...?

[AndriaD]

On the off chance this is a serious question: vaping is a recreational activity, similar to riding a motorcycle or taking a vacation in my car. These activities involve an entirely avoidable risk to my safety--avoidable because I can cease doing them altogether. But I enjoy them so I choose to continue. Now, I can either wear a helmet or not wear one. I can wear my seat belt or not. In both instances I choose the latter because I do not wish to avoid these enjoyable activities altogether, but instead prefer to minimize the hazards to the extent practical. Similarly, I wish to continue to enjoy vaping but can easily do so without the added risk of inhaling diketones.

To me, vaping is not at all "recreational" -- it's THR. If I avoid vaping, then I smoke, simple as that. Vaping may not be the mythical "100% safe" -- I still want to know WHAT IS -- but it's a hell of a lot safer than smoking. Probably even with diacetyl in the juice, though I personally CHOOSE to AVOID it -- now that is easy. Diketones MAY NOT be the huge danger all the chicken littles are hollering about... but if it's not in there at all, then I don't have to worry about it at all.

Andria

 

[Rossum]

It doesn't matter whether its recreational or THR. Personally, I consider it some of both. I suspect I'd also be back to smoking real quick if it became impossible for me to vape (which is why I won't allow myself to be put in such a position). But I sure don't need all the really neat mods, atties, and (diketone-free) flavors I've accumulated in order not to smoke. So that part of it is a hobby (recreational).

 

[Jman8]

On the off chance this is a serious question: Vaping is a recreational activity, similar to riding a motorcycle or taking a vacation in my car. These activities involve an entirely avoidable risk to my safety--avoidable because I can cease doing them altogether. But I enjoy them so I choose to continue. Now, I can either wear a helmet or not wear one. I can wear my seat belt or not. In both instances I choose the latter because I do not wish to avoid these enjoyable activities altogether, but instead prefer to minimize the hazards to the extent practical. Similarly, I wish to continue to enjoy vaping but can easily do so without the added risk of inhaling diketones.

With the automotive examples, the diketone analogy would be you can avoid riding on roads with black pavement and only stay on roads with gray pavement. This being deemed easily avoidable with proper maps, and concern for one's safety. And then arguing that the black paved roads are potentially dangerous, while the gray ones are, not so much.

So when one asks me, like you did, why inhale diacetyl when it is easily avoidable, I can go with answer of - because I enjoy it, and it ought to work for you. Really ought to be no follow up questions, unless you can back up how driving down certain colored roads has less potential risks, and make a sound case for that, beyond supposition.

 

[bigdancehawk]

With the automotive examples, the diketone analogy would be you can avoid riding on roads with black pavement and only stay on roads with gray pavement. This being deemed easily avoidable with proper maps, and concern for one's safety. And then arguing that the black paved roads are potentially dangerous, while the gray ones are, not so much.

So when one asks me, like you did, why inhale diacetyl when it is easily avoidable, I can go with answer of - because I enjoy it, and it ought to work for you. Really ought to be no follow up questions, unless you can back up how driving down certain colored roads has less potential risks, and make a sound case for that, beyond supposition.

Your analogy sucks. Dr. F says diketones pose an increased risk of harm which can be easily avoided. Dr. F has earned considerable credibility around these here parts. OTOH, I don't recall anyone claiming that gray roads are safer than black.

 

[bigdancehawk]

To me, vaping is not at all "recreational" -- it's THR. If I avoid vaping, then I smoke, simple as that. Vaping may not be the mythical "100% safe" -- I still want to know WHAT IS -- but it's a hell of a lot safer than smoking. Probably even with diacetyl in the juice, though I personally CHOOSE to AVOID it -- now that is easy. Diketones MAY NOT be the huge danger all the chicken littles are hollering about... but if it's not in there at all, then I don't have to worry about it at all.

Andria

I get the THR, but you can't tell me that you don't thoroughly enjoy vaping. Vaping is a less harmful alternative to the smoking we once enjoyed. Both are recreational activities*, irrespective of how difficult and unpleasant it may be to stop. Similarly, vaping diketone-free juice is probably a less harmful alternative to sucking that stuff in every day, year after year.

*Recreational activities are those we can live without. If you are stuck on a desert island, you must breathe, eat and drink or die. Although you might be miserable, you'd survive without smoking or vaping.

 

[Jman8]

Your analogy sucks. Dr. F says diketones pose an increased risk of harm which can be easily avoided. Dr. F has earned considerable credibility around these here parts. OTOH, I don't recall anyone claiming that gray roads are safer than black.

I think the analogy is giving diketones too much credit. Honestly. It's too good of analogy for the trivial concern that diketones currently represent. At any rate, all one has to do is enjoy it despite the possible risk to appease your response which you gave to me in 'why vape at all?'

 

[skoony]

Your analogy sucks. Dr. F says diketones pose an increased risk of harm which can be easily avoided. Dr. F has earned considerable credibility around these here parts. OTOH, I don't recall anyone claiming that gray roads are safer than black.

Dr. F at first said diketones were a potential risk that could easily be avoided until
further studies indicated whether or not they were had been done. Somewhere
along they way this morphed into diketones are a avoidable risk and should not
be used. He hasn't done any research nor has indicated what research he
relied upon to change his position. I mention this not to knock the good Dr
but for the purposes of informed discussion.
Regards
Mike

 

[DC2]

"Big Pharma's" bias is towards the efficacy of their products. And they make far more money on disease treatments than on peddling quit-smoking crap.

Agreed. And it's why they want people to keep smoking, or STOP vaping.

That's why the only kind of pathetic "evidence" that "Big Pharma" haters ever come up with is about e.g. diabetes drugs or cancer treatments, stuff for which an ideology of health fascism is irrelevant.

Don't know what you are trying to say here...

And the "Alphabet Soup" groups don't need RWJF because they created the federal health establishment long before RWJF even existed, with their behavior control funding agents embedded therein. RWJF didn't even get involved until the 1990s, FFS, while the Office on Smoking and Health has formally existed since the 1960s! And the ACS openly declared war on smoking in 1957.

That's fine, but mostly irrelevant.
Money from Big Pharma flows freely to the alphabet soup groups.

I still maintain that Big Pharma is not immune from blame.
Not even close.

And the "more money" they make on disease treatments is right in line with my insistence on their culpability.

 

[Rossum]

If you are stuck on a desert island, you must breathe, eat and drink or die. Although you might be miserable, you'd survive without smoking or vaping.

Yeah, I probably would survive. But anyone else stuck on that island with me would be in grave danger.

 

[AndriaD]

I get the THR, but you can't tell me that you don't thoroughly enjoy vaping. Vaping is a less harmful alternative to the smoking we once enjoyed. Both are recreational activities*, irrespective of how difficult and unpleasant it may be to stop. Similarly, vaping diketone-free juice is probably a less harmful alternative to sucking that stuff in every day, year after year.

*Recreational activities are those we can live without. If you are stuck on a desert island, you must breathe, eat and drink or die. Although you might be miserable, you'd survive without smoking or vaping.

But I wouldn't survive. When we were really really broke, I often gave very serious thought to slitting my wrists, if we couldn't afford cigarettes, because if I was dead, I wouldn't need to smoke. And I guarantee you, if my husband had to be around me in that condition, it's a toss up which of us he'd kill, me or himself to get away from me. Why do you think he likes vaping so much!!! He doesn't do it! He doesn't smoke! But living with me, trying to do without cigarettes, if I don't have something to replace them with? I'm really not sure which of us he'd kill.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Ok, I've come to a conclusion: because my husband truly loves me, and is a very giving and generous person, I'm pretty sure I could talk him into killing me, so I wouldn't have to live without (smoking or vaping).

Andria

 

[VNeil]

Dr. F at first said diketones were a potential risk that could easily be avoided until
further studies indicated whether or not they were had been done. Somewhere
along they way this morphed into diketones are a avoidable risk and should not
be used. He hasn't done any research nor has indicated what research he
relied upon to change his position. I mention this not to knock the good Dr
but for the purposes of informed discussion.
Regards
Mike

Since everyone hangs on every word Dr F says... in his latest discussion, his criticism of the Harvard study, he repeats his admonition that diketones should not be intentionally added to juice, but severely criticizes the report for including trace amounts, amounts he considers too minor to be of concern.

I think a lot of people are confusing the witch hunt for trace amounts and Dr F's concerns, for example, over large amounts of intentionally added ingredients. Although he was not specific, there may have been only one juice of the 50-some tested that would have met his threshold for "too much" although I don't see where he gives specific guidance on where his thresholds lie.

BTW, the one outlier juice in that study, with levels similar to a cigarette, was an eCigarette made by a "major cigarette manufacturer". They did test 11 liquid juices, and none of them had what I thought were "significant levels". I thought it was unfortunate, and poor science, that the published study contains no details of how the liquid eJuice was measured, or what one measure comprised.

When people say "I want diketone free juice" I'm not sure they realize the can of worms they are opening. Nor do I think anyone has quantified a reasonable threshold for incidental measurements. Since I DIY I have not closely followed the various diketone expose threads related to a few major juice vendors but I did see where different tests were returning different results, or 3rd party tests were reporting diketones where the vendor suggested otherwise, and I suspect much of that has to do with the variability of measuring what are essentially trace amounts.

 

[Rossum]

Ok, I've come to a conclusion: because my husband truly loves me, and is a very giving and generous person, I'm pretty sure I could talk him into killing me, so I wouldn't have to live without (smoking or vaping).

Yep, my wife is the same. She never smoked and doesn't vape, but loves the the fact that I do, and wants to be sure I can continue to do so for as long as we both shall live. Not smoking or vaping doesn't make me suicidal, it just turns me into an insufferable sub-human*.

(*) She describes it in more colorful language than that.

 

[Kent C]

Again, I think this was just a 'pre-deeming' PR piece to acclimate the population and gain some support by non-vapers, (uninformed) family members to have this bit of headline info - 'ecigs cause popcorn lung' to pass around at xmas and social media.

When/if the deeming results in banning 99.9% of the vaping industry, then the response can be - of course - vaping can be harmful.....

No more, no less. They pick the right 'source' - Harvard and the right outlets - all the major media and all is well. Except for those vapers who know what a scam it is and who the scammers are.

 

[AndriaD]

Yep, my wife is the same. She never smoked and doesn't vape, but loves the the fact that I do, and wants to be sure I can continue to do so for as long as we both shall live. Not smoking or vaping doesn't make me suicidal, it just turns me into an insufferable sub-human*.

(*) She describes it in more colorful language than that.

I'm honestly not sure how I'd be nowadays, without vaping; my WTA is down to 1%, so I'm not getting much of that anymore. It might be somewhat milder, than when I was a smoker.

Both times I tried to quit using the patch, my son, 7 and 9 at those times, was all yay mom! And within a week, that same child was BEGGING me to smoke, because I was absolutely out of my mind miserable; couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, couldn't sit and watch TV, or (HORRORS!!!) sit and read a book. After about the 3rd day, he was begging me to smoke; after the 4th day, my husband was begging me to smoke. And the 5th day, out of my mind with sleeplessness, anxiety, hallucinations, heart palpitations, and general screaming witchiness (with a B), I was wondering if it was worth it. I never made it to day 7, either time. After finally smoking a cigarette, I would eat, go to bed, and be completely normal when I woke. So yeah, when times were really hard in 2009/2010, when i wondered if we could afford to buy cigarettes at all, I seriously contemplated suicide rather than go thru that again.

Andria

 

[Mazinny]

Since everyone hangs on every word Dr F says... in his latest discussion, his criticism of the Harvard study, he repeats his admonition that diketones should not be intentionally added to juice, but severely criticizes the report for including trace amounts, amounts he considers to minor to be of concern.

I think a lot of people are confusing the witch hunt for trace amounts and Dr F's concerns, for example, over large amounts of intentionally added ingredients. Although he was not specific, there may have been only one juice of the 50-some tested that would have met his threshold for "too much" although I don't see where he gives specific guidance on where his thresholds lie.

BTW, the one outlier juice in that study, with levels similar to a cigarette, was an eCigarette made by a "major cigarette manufacturer". They did test 11 liquid juices, and none of them had what I thought were "significant levels". I thought it was unfortunate, and poor science, that the published study contains no details of how the liquid eJuice was measured, or what one measure comprised.

When people say "I want diketone free juice" I'm not sure they realize the can of worms they are opening. Nor do I think anyone has quantified a reasonable threshold for incidental measurements. Since I DIY I have not closely followed the various diketone expose threads related to a few major juice vendors but I did see where different tests were returning different results, or 3rd party tests were reporting diketones where the vendor suggested otherwise, and I suspect much of that has to do with the variability of measuring what are essentially trace amounts.

I don't think Dr. F has given any guidance as to what level he finds problematic, although he has extrapolated the levels NIOSH has recommended for ambient air in the work place ( no more than the time weighted average of 5 ppb for diacetyl and i believe 9 ppb for AP ). I believe he came up with 65 ppm for diacetyl and 137 ppm for AP per day. Although he has been criticized by people on both sides for doing this ( by both sides i mean 5P and NIOSH ! )

I have heard him say he is not concerned about low levels ( ppm in single digits ) , since he believes it is more the result of cross contamination and/or impure acetoin ( which he evidently isn't too concerned about ) converting to diacetyl.

I think the headlines would have been a lot worst if Harvard had decided to test the type of liquid B&M's sell than what they actually tested ( ecigs and prefilled cartridges for the most part ). The amount of liquid tested was very likely just under 1 ml. I don't know of any cartridges that hold more, and i read somewhere in their notes, that they may not have emptied the cartridge entirely.

And i don't believe like some on these threads, that there is a giant conspiracy between BT, BP, public health groups, government agencies, academia and the media. Each of these groups have their own agenda and biases. These may overlap at times, granted, but there is no giant conspiracy imo. Harvard chose to go after BT products, and i believe they might've been surprised the amounts were so low, and that is why they didn't compare with cigarettes. I could've told them that they won't find high levels of diketones in the products they tested !

Had they tested something like this liquid : VAPOR SHARK - FINE ELECTRONIC CIGARETTES , the headlines may have been far worst.

 

[Jman8]

I'm honestly not sure how I'd be nowadays, without vaping; my WTA is down to 1%, so I'm not getting much of that anymore. It might be somewhat milder, than when I was a smoker.

Both times I tried to quit using the patch, my son, 7 and 9 at those times, was all yay mom! And within a week, that same child was BEGGING me to smoke, because I was absolutely out of my mind miserable; couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, couldn't sit and watch TV, or (HORRORS!!!) sit and read a book. After about the 3rd day, he was begging me to smoke; after the 4th day, my husband was begging me to smoke. And the 5th day, out of my mind with sleeplessness, anxiety, hallucinations, heart palpitations, and general screaming witchiness (with a B), I was wondering if it was worth it. I never made it to day 7, either time. After finally smoking a cigarette, I would eat, go to bed, and be completely normal when I woke. So yeah, when times were really hard in 2009/2010, when i wondered if we could afford to buy cigarettes at all, I seriously contemplated suicide rather than go thru that again.

Andria

IMO, your situation is either extremely rare and/or it is possible that you are able to stop, but don't fully realize it. When I quit cold turkey, 3 times, one of the times it was very easy. For me, that was a spiritual experience, for several reasons, but I could never emphasize how utterly easy it was to not smoke during this period, and this was coming off the most I had smoked / longest duration. Another one of those times was middle of the road, nothing really interesting to note. But the other time was very incredibly tough. I doubt it was as horrible as you are making it out to be, but it was very tough. It got to point where I just gave in, then found I hated the taste, couldn't finish the smoke and from that moment on, I went cold turkey for a good year or so. I've never quit less than one year at a time.

What I think could make your situation more unique is that you have now stopped smoking and yet it seems like you are strongly implying that if you were to stop vaping at any point (i.e. vaping zero nic for 3 years straight in some hypothetical future, then decide to stop) that you are convinced you'd return to smoking/vaping nicotine. I dunno, and not sure if how I'm communicating this is plausible, but given level of resistance you've communicated, it seems like there would be an automatic response to smoke / use nicotine, even if you took say a 3 year break from nic, via vaping (0 mg).

With all that said, I'm compelled to note that stopping smoking is / can be a wonderful experience. I'm sure the same holds true for vaping. But IMO, the feeling of success / liberation is fleeting, and wears off after awhile. Not that this means one ought to return to the habit, but does mean if one does, I don't see it as all that significant of a choice, especially when one knows (has experience) that they can stop at time of their choosing, when they are truly ready to take an indefinite break.

Personally, I'm glad to be a moderate smoker. Way easier psychologically than thinking I might be having a temptation moment but I must deny myself or I'm an utter failure.

 

[VNeil]

I don't think Dr. F has given any guidance as to what level he finds problematic, although he has extrapolated the levels NIOSH has recommended for ambient air in the work place ( no more than the time weighted average of 5 ppb for diacetyl and i believe 9 ppb for AP ). I believe he came up with 65 ppm for diacetyl and 137 ppm for AP per day. Although he has been criticized by people on both sides for doing this ( by both sides i mean 5P and NIOSH ! )

I have heard him say he is not concerned about low levels ( ppm in single digits ) , since he believes it is more the result of cross contamination and/or impure acetoin ( which he evidently isn't too concerned about ) converting to diacetyl.

I think the headlines would have been a lot worst if Harvard had decided to test the type of liquid B&M's sell than what they actually tested ( ecigs and prefilled cartridges for the most part ). The amount of liquid tested was very likely just under 1 ml. I don't know of any cartridges that hold more, and i read somewhere in their notes, that they may not have emptied the cartridge entirely.

And i don't believe like some on these threads, that there is a giant conspiracy between public health groups, government agencies, academia and the media. Each of these groups have their own agenda and biases. These may overlap at times, granted, but there is no giant conspiracy imo. Harvard chose to go after BT products, and i believe they might've been surprised the amounts were so low, and that is why they didn't compare with cigarettes. I could've told them that they won't find high levels of diketones in the products they tested !

Had they tested something like this liquid : VAPOR SHARK - FINE ELECTRONIC CIGARETTES , the headlines may have been far worst.

The full conclusion from the study abstract:

Conclusion: Due to the associations between diacetyl, bronchiolitis obliterans and other severe respiratory diseases observed in workers, urgent action is recommended to further evaluate this potentially widespread exposure via flavored e-cigarettes.

Doesn't get much more hysterical than that. The report itself reeked of politics, not science. The entire report was designed to lead one to the conclusion that the FDA desperately needs to enact the Deeming to save us all. The conclusion of the abstract was honestly just a mercenary call for more funding to study this "terrible problem".

They did test 11 liquid juices, and all those 11 tested moderate to low levels. There is probably more interest and demand from the upscale liquid juice market for diketone free juice than the BT products sold in gas stations, where the customers are totally unaware. I know what you are saying since liquid juice is more "flavorful" in general or supposedly...

 

[Mazinny]

The full conclusion from the study abstract:

Conclusion: Due to the associations between diacetyl, bronchiolitis obliterans and other severe respiratory diseases observed in workers, urgent action is recommended to further evaluate this potentially widespread exposure via flavored e-cigarettes.

Doesn't get much more hysterical than that. The report itself reeked of politics, not science. The entire report was designed to lead one to the conclusion that the FDA desperately needs to enact the Deeming to save us all. The conclusion of the abstract was honestly just a mercenary call for more funding to study this "terrible problem".

They did test 11 liquid juices, and all those 11 tested moderate to low levels. There is probably more interest and demand from the upscale liquid juice market for diketone free juice than the BT products sold in gas stations, where the customers are totally unaware. I know what you are saying since liquid juice is more "flavorful" in general or supposedly...

The vast majority ( 91 % according to a Marquette poll ) of vapers are 'unaware', regardless of where they purchase their liquid. The reason i say the headlines would have been worst, is that i have seen the numbers of some of these juices on the Vaporshark site, not because the juices are more 'flavorful', and i 'know' which flavors are likely to test high ( none that they chose ). They were really after the BT products and products with names that they believe appeal to children.

As hysterical as their conclusion was ( the level of disconnect between their findings and their conclusion is appalling and embarrassing ), could you imagine what it would have been had they tested liquids with over 1000 ppm of AP ?

 

[VNeil]

The vast majority ( 91 % according to a Marquette poll ) of vapers are 'unaware', regardless of where they purchase their liquid. The reason i say the headlines would have been worst, is that i have seen the numbers of some of these juices on the Vaporshark site, not because the juices are more 'flavorful', and i 'know' which flavors are likely to test high ( none that they chose ). They were really after the BT products and products with names that they believe appeal to children.

As hysterical as their conclusion was, could you imagine what it would have been had they tested liquids with over 1000 ppm of AP ?

I don't keep up with commercial juice test results. I'd be curious to see some of my DIY tested but not enough to pay for it. I'd like to see TFA post results of their concentrates but even then I'm not sure how it would apply to finished juice.