Children in a vape cafe

[jambi]

Ok, we're 11 pages in, so I feel safe getting a little off topic.
Reading all these responses has made me wonder -

Do y'all see a problem with a minor (say 11-15) vaping zero nicotine juice?

Heh, I'll bite...

Personally, no problem. I don't condone it, wouldn't encourage it, and would never support it, but I wouldn't try to stop it. Who am I? Just a guy who started smoking in his pre-teens mostly because all the adults told me I couldn't. I'm not going to be the one who tries to stop someone else from doing something I myself find so pleasurable, and I don't need to. There are more than enough people who are ready and willing to play that role. Heck, there are more than enough people who want to prevent me from vaping too, and I'm an official adult.

The problems I see are the problems those other people will have. Most of them will also have problems with that same 11 year old skateboarding on a public sidewalk. It's a no-win. Yes, I care, but I don't want to be involved in ANY crusades, especially the "Protect Children" variety. There are too many "Child Protectors" already. I am sure of this, since I've spent so much time protecting my own children from them. It's everybody's favorite bandwagon to jump on, since it's so...beyond refute. Anyway, I just can't stomach that degree of mainstreamism in my life.

Also, I'm not buying into the irony/paranoia of "We must take a stand against it because it's our responsibility as vapers." That's just another way of saying "We must not condone it because we're afraid of being blamed by association". We'll be blamed anyway. I'm not afraid.

I know. I'm a bad vaper. Ok.

 

[AndriaD]

Good sense as usual, Jman. I actually do think that 99% of parents have completely forgotten what it felt like to be a powerless child -- if they remembered what that felt like, most wouldn't treat their children the way that they do.

"Do as I say, not as I do."
"I'm always right; even if you disagree with me, I'm still always right."
"You will call me MA'AM/SIR or I will make your life hell right here in public."
"I can boss you around with zero rationality because I'm bigger than you."
"I can coerce you into doing anything I say, even if I have to beat you to do it."
"I'm determined to keep you in a bubble so you'll be completely unprepared for adulthood."
"What you want doesn't matter at all, it's what *I* want that counts."



Andria

 

[KattMamma]

This thread fascinates me.

I do believe that some of our feelings and knowledge about tobacco smoke gets mixed in with our feelings about vapor.

I know that sometimes when I walk into a vape shop that's so foggy you can't see, my first tendency is to wave my hands and cough -- then I have to laugh at myself because it's just fog.

 

[Bad Ninja]

Never underestimate the variety of stuff that the motorhead guy is willing to procure. Alcohol, smokes, {other stuff}, name it, they have it. Want a case of beer at 2AM, you can get it delivered at your door. Cold from the cooler.

Lol
I don't trust him.....unless it's Lemmy.

Vaping is in a precarious situation. It's not impossible it could be banned a year from now. We have to take that seriously. Don't give the other side ammunition. One good cell phone video of youngsters hanging out in a cloud filled vape café could take 10 points off vaping's approval rating.

This is where I draw the line.
Children are not political talking points.
Do not bring someone else's parenting into your political agenda.

We aren't discussing minors vaping.
We are discussing bringing a minor into a vape shop.
Truth and facts will win the day. Not pomp and circumstance.
Telling people how to raise their children will not end well.
Quite frankly, at this point in the game, it's none of your business whether they bring a child into a shop.

 

[jseah]

I know that sometimes when I walk into a vape shop that's so foggy you can't see, my first tendency is to wave my hands and cough -- then I have to laugh at myself because it's just fog.

Yes. While it is disconcerting, at least it doesn't sting the eyes.

 

[caramel]

"Do as I say, not as I do."
"I'm always right; even if you disagree with me, I'm still always right."
"You will call me MA'AM/SIR or I will make your life hell right here in public."
"I can boss you around with zero rationality because I'm bigger than you."
"I can coerce you into doing anything I say, even if I have to beat you to do it."
"I'm determined to keep you in a bubble so you'll be completely unprepared for adulthood."
"What you want doesn't matter at all, it's what *I* want that counts."

While not intended as such, this is a perfect description of government's position regarding vaping. Including for adults.

 

[Jman8]

Ok, we're 11 pages in, so I feel safe getting a little off topic.
Reading all these responses has made me wonder -

Do y'all see a problem with a minor (say 11-15) vaping zero nicotine juice?

I do not see a problem with this. Or as much of a problem as I see with 11 to 15 year olds ingesting sugar. Was tempted to go with 'as much of a problem as drinking water' especially if contents of water aren't entirely known (like what minerals or other additives may be in the water).

In a world filled with ANTZ rhetoric that goes unchecked, I think it does present a problem, as vaping does appear like smoking. So, whether it is adult or child vaping zero nic, just the appearance would present a problem for some folks that feel emotion trumps reason and would snub their nose at you for daring to entertain other ideas.

I do find it humorous that as vaping catches on, we may find many other things that could be vaped. I think we already are at this point, but because of all the political junk around vaping nicotine, this is being extremely downplayed. I'm saying that one could vape say broccoli flavor and plausibly ingest nutrients that way (albeit trace amounts). Or vape chocolate flavor and get this. Or vape some sort of medication in a way that would 'normalize' taking that medication routinely throughout the day. If BP was squarely in this game, I could see a whole lot of adults (including ANTZ) thinking vaping is a wonderful thing and even kids ought to be encouraged to do it for various purposes. But because of all the political junk around vaping nicotine, we can't (right now) allow ourselves to go in that direction. I could easily see 30 or more years from now, the people then looking back at us today and regarding our attitudes around vaping as seemingly prehistoric.

But then again, if ANTZ win the political battle over vaping, I can see the same people from the future looking down at us as savages who thought vaping nicotine would be okay. Those people from 2015 were evil. Evil, I tell you!

 

[Foggin Munky]

I guess this is why I don't see the issue - I do not equate vaping to pseudo smoking. Just because some use it to get off of cigs doesn't put it in the same category for me.

For example - some folks use nicotine gum to quit smoking but, if gum does not contain ANY nicotine, I don't mind if kids chew it

 

[Jman8]

I guess this is why I don't see the issue - I do not equate vaping to pseudo smoking. Just because some use it to get off of cigs doesn't put it in the same category for me.

For example - some folks use nicotine gum to quit smoking but, if gum does not contain ANY nicotine, I don't mind if kids chew it

Do you not think the act of vaping resembles that act of smoking?

If yes, do you not see that society, in general, hates smokers/smoking.

 

[caramel]

Yeah, it's insanity. Kids will vape if they want and passing laws won't change that. Laws never stopped me getting cigarettes or beer.

Like++.

During my rather short career here on ECF, I've learned that ANTZ are not able to scientifically prove that vaping is sufficiently harmful as to pose a significant danger to vapers and / or bystanders (and justify the legislation they want to pass around it).

Once I realized that, it was obvious that their arguments can't be other than based on false/unproven allegations and/or logical fallacies. So I learned to identify them first, it makes arguing so much easier.

Your post highlights one of the false allegations they use - that underage smoking has already been eradicated through their legislative contributions.

Usually this is followed by a rhetoric on how vaping will undo that and needs to be banned. Which is a completely moot point since smoking hasn't been eradicated in the first place and there's nothing to "undo" about it.

 

[supertrunker]

It really has to do with the balance between government interference and parents' rights to raise their own children.

If you assume Alpine fresh air is the gold standard, then it will not take someone very long to posit that unless you move to Switzerland, you are neglecting or being abusive to your offspring - and that has to be legislated against. So, no smoking in your own home, by law.

But if you are able to establish that vaping is indeed less harmful than cooking around children - then the wheels come off. Nobody with any sense would advocate starving people because heated cooking oil is dangerous and so the whole nonsense about second-hand vape is exposed.

Whether children ought to be in vape shops could then be decided, by the parents and shop-owner, in much the same way that some films were able to be viewed by people of a certain age only if accompanied by an adult.

T

 

[Lessifer]

Vaping is in a precarious situation. It's not impossible it could be banned a year from now. We have to take that seriously. Don't give the other side ammunition. One good cell phone video of youngsters hanging out in a cloud filled vape café could take 10 points off vaping's approval rating.

Honestly, I think a bunch of VAPERS acting like vaping around a child is tantamount to child abuse, is far more damaging to the societal view of vaping.

If you want people to accept it, vape around your child, and tell them why you feel perfectly comfortable doing so, because it's not smoke, and the actual scientific evidence to date(which does exist) shows exhaled vapor to be roughly as clean as city air.



Sent from my zombie defense stronghold using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[caramel]

I'll second Lessifer. If we behave like we're guilty of doing something bad, it will be only so much easier for the ANTZ to deal with us.

At the very moment that smokers accepted that they were doing something bad to the bystanders and it was Ok to keep them in "designated areas", they lost it and it all went down from there.

 

[Foggin Munky]

Do you not think the act of vaping resembles that act of smoking?

If yes, do you not see that society, in general, hates smokers/smoking.

I don't base opinions on what things resemble.

As far as society hating smoking, they have good cause to. However, that does not excuse the blind hatred of anything that reminds them of smoking. This would be comparable to not only hating people who have wronged you, but also anyone who looks like them.

Vaping, regardless of what it resembles, is NOT smoking and needs to be evaluated on its own merits/risks.

 

[caramel]

Do you not think the act of vaping resembles that act of smoking?

If yes, do you not see that society, in general, hates smokers/smoking.

Jman I challenge you to watch this video in full and tell us what you think of Tina Fey vs Sarah Palin

 

[GinnyTx]

I'm conflicted on this..having been a single (divorced) mom for 15 years while mine were ages 5 & 10 when I divorced and until this last year but they're all grown now..but I was "IT" all the time 24X7. Unless they had the begrudging drop off at "dump a kid" aka Grandma's. *lol*

I'd agree with the bar thing...kids in bars..is so wrong on so many levels..the booze, it's "an adult place" etc.

but say in the afternoon, if mom needed to get some juice..maybe

an evening at the crowded B&M and you can see the air..that's inappropriate imo.

 

[Lessifer]

Here's a more recent article about a more recent study http://www .webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20140903/e-cigarette-vapor-may-be-less-toxic-than-tobacco-smoke-study
(link broken, just because)
The article isn't particularly vape friendly, but here's the gist of the findings minus all the usual "possible harm" nonsense:
"The study shows that regarding the most dangerous chemicals released by tobacco smoke, e-cigarette vapor contains none. Other chemicals it does contain are mostly a small fraction of those from cigarettes, and the metal compounds it releases are at levels unlikely to pose a risk," said Hajek, who studies tobacco risks.

"The conclusion should be that e-cig vapor is unlikely to pose any risk to bystanders. This tallies with other studies conducted so far," he noted.

 

[Lessifer]

I'm conflicted on this..having been a single (divorced) mom for 15 years while mine were ages 5 & 10 when I divorced and until this last year but they're all grown now..but I was "IT" all the time 24X7. Unless they had the begrudging drop off at "dump a kid" aka Grandma's. *lol*

I'd agree with the bar thing...kids in bars..is so wrong on so many levels..the booze, it's "an adult place" etc.

but say in the afternoon, if mom needed to get some juice..maybe

an evening at the crowded B&M and you can see the air..that's inappropriate imo.

I'm not a single parent, but my wife is ill and is not often able to care for our 4yo on her own. 90% of the time, if I don't take the kid with me, I don't go anywhere. I don't take my kid to the vape shop, not because I don't want her exposed, but because I don't want the distraction of having to watch/entertain her while I'm there, but if I needed to go and she was with me, I would have no problem bringing her in. I would not hang out for hours though, because at 4 years old, she gets bored quickly and can be quite annoying and I wouldn't want to expose others at the vape shop to her tantrums, someone has to protect the vapers!

 

[caramel]

Ginny - there's a difference between spending the night in a bar and dropping in for 5 minutes in a shop to buy something.

Regarding inhaled danger I would think that having your kid in the car while pumping gas is in the same ballpark. Should gas stations be +18 including passengers?

 

[AndriaD]

I'm not a single parent, but my wife is ill and is not often able to care for our 4yo on her own. 90% of the time, if I don't take the kid with me, I don't go anywhere. I don't take my kid to the vape shop, not because I don't want her exposed, but because I don't want the distraction of having to watch/entertain her while I'm there, but if I needed to go and she was with me, I would have no problem bringing her in. I would not hang out for hours though, because at 4 years old, she gets bored quickly and can be quite annoying and I wouldn't want to expose others at the vape shop to her tantrums, someone has to protect the vapers!

This is exactly my reasoning for not hanging out in a vape shop with kids -- I doubt it's bad for the kids, other than just the usual (f-bombs have been known to occur when someone finally figures out the rebuilding thing and sees what all the fuss is about ), but it's not very kind or considerate to bring a person not yet trained in social demeanor into such an environment -- sure a brief visit won't hurt or bother anyone, but you're right, little kids have the attention span of a gnat, and it's the parents' problem, shouldn't be everyone else's.

Andria