Clone Versus Authentic Discussion

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Sirius

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the way I see it.... if anyone thinks they are going to buy a new authentic for the price of a clone needs to have a reality check....

Have you looked at the prices of clones,..(counterfeits) (rip-offs) ect.ect on FT lately? Now I totally disagree with the types like the Aqua V2 rip-offs,....the packaging and logos are 100% cloned ..I would imagine they could easily be passed onto someone as authentic..That is why I didn't buy one awhile back when we all were talking about those.

They call the Orchid V3 an Orchid because it is of the same design..like Ernie says..generic..I'm good with generic clones.
 
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Pinggolfer

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Probably a pedal car if it has less than 41 parts... I've just taken my K4 up to 43 parts.
Is it doofy or goofy?
Most of these so called authentics couldn't get a patent if they tried because they stole the ideas from the Chinese to begin with.
Ideas from China? Please get real. svoemesto sure sounds Chinese to me. The end of clones is coming. By supporting cheap mods and clones all you're doing is giving states and the FDA ammunition. Cheap exploding mods etc all from China.
 

doofy666

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Yeah - like Vamo means something that looks and performs like a Vamo, not something made by whoever originally made Vamo.

Same as "Hoover" and "Biro" in the UK now just mean vacuum cleaner and ball point pen.

I'm pretty sure that my Vamo is a "generic" and it irritates me that it comes with a certificate of authenticity.

I'd like to see an honest, level playing field where copies - call them what you will - are correctly labelled. Then we could all make informed purchasing decisions. In my particular case that might mean buying a used auth K4 on ebay.

Tobeco, Hcigar, EHPro, whoever should not label their K4 "Svoemesto".

When I download an mp3 online I make an informed decision based on bitrate etc. If I want guaranteed high quality I get a FLAC. A problem I have, from a single experience, and from reading ECF, is that clone manufacturers copy everything down to the smallest packaging detail and then advertise "1:1" and are quite simply lying.
 

stevegmu

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Is it doofy or goofy?

Ideas from China? Please get real. Svoemesto sure sounds Chinese to me. The end of clones is coming. By supporting cheap mods and clones all you're doing is giving states and the FDA ammunition. Cheap exploding mods etc all from China.

You have to understand a certain mentality. Some feel a concept is a 'clone' like an atty, so everything is a 'clone' of the first atty. They don't believe in intellectual property, industrial design ownership, name and trademark ownership. A Nike shoe is just a 'clone' of the first shoe, so buying counterfeit Nikes is ok, because they are cheap and are all 'clones' of the first shoe. It is a mantra of the entitlement generation...
 

USMCotaku

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The difference..... The blindingly obvious difference.... Those items all carry trademarks, patents etc..
The trademark and patent process isn't nearly as hard as some make it out to be, nor as expensive if you research and write it yourself. Sure, they can't patent an RDA.... But they could, say, patent a unique juice delivery system........ And trademark their logo. If they are in the process of doing so, good on them. Any modder who doesn't do so, has no legal or moral grounds for complaint if their design is copied, period.
But... They are copying the logos too....... Well, is it trademarked? No? Then it isn't your logo, it's just generic art. Take the time to do what EVERY other product based industry does, trademark your line, patent your unique design features, or stop complaining about being copied LEGALLY by someone else, whether from China or not.
Those who only buy authentics really need to stop talking down to clone buyers as if they are doing something wrong or immoral, they aren't. The elitist attitude comes off like highschool clique baloney we all should have outgrown. Of someone likes their clone, and it works well for them, that's an that matters, same with those who want authentics.
When I first started vaping, it was to stay off cigarettes. An innokin vv v3 and a nemesis clone were more then sufficient for me then. Now that I've gone into hobby status, I look for higher quality gear... Sometimes authentic, bit sometimes a clone fits that bill. My cheap stuff got pif'd. My only mech left is a panzer clone, one of the 1:1 clones that parts are interchangeable with the authentic... Solid stainless, threading like butter, gold plated contacts......hits harder then any non copper mod I've ever tried. It's dang near bullet proof. Dropped into concrete, shattered attys on it, mod barely scratched and still going strong, threading still butter..... Why should I pay almost $200 to replace something I paid $30 for, and truly works as good?
Regulated mods are a slightly different beast, usually the authentic is worth paying the extra for, but in a few cases, even then a clone has improved upon the authentic.
The long and the short of it is, vape what you want, for the reasons you want, and don't belittle or condemn others for their choices in gear. You want to be a white knight for the industry? How about focusing on fighting ridiculous legislation, instead of trying to protect modders who can't be bothered to protect themselves.
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping.
 

doofy666

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They don't believe in intellectual property, industrial design ownership, name and trademark ownership

This, I don't understand. I've been online for about 20 yrs, have downloaded and uploaded loads of stolen software, music and vids and have been well aware that I steal and facilitate the stealing of "intellectual property". The people with whom I have associated with in these environments - well, we have all referred to ourselves as thieves or pirates.

When I bought my Tobeco K4 in January, I was well aware that I was stealing intellectual property. I did not attempt any internal moral justifications. This is probably the only place I've been online where those who steal deny that they are doing so, and attempt to denigrate those who do not steal with expressions such as "elitist" etc. I've stolen Photoshop at least once, but have never bad mouthed those who buy it.

I don't know how much a Kayfun V4 is "worth", but it's pretty obvious to me that a German worker earns more, has better holidays, better working conditions, and better social care based on his taxes than his Chinese counterpart working out of some shed or other. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply delusional. Add to that the costs of R&D and yes, an auth is going to cost more than a Chinese clone. You only have to take the K4 apart, look at it, think about R&D and it's plain that it's "worth" more than 20 dollars. Those who buy a 20 dollar clone as opposed to paying the 180 asking price of an auth thinking, and vehemently protesting, that they are somehow going "against the man" are operating under some kind of logical misconception that simply mystifies me.

Cars tend to have 3 pedals. That don't mean that all 3 pedal cars are clones of the first 3 pedal car. Buy a Ford or steal a Merc; I don't care - just, if you decide to steal the Merc, don't try to take any moral high ground.
 

stevegmu

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This, I don't understand. I've been online for about 20 yrs, have downloaded and uploaded loads of stolen software, music and vids and have been well aware that I steal and facilitate the stealing of "intellectual property". The people with whom I have associated with in these environments - well, we have all referred to ourselves as thieves or pirates.

Read through enough of these threads and you will understand the state of denial. They even came up with 'clone' as a feel good word, rather than fake or counterfeit...
 

PapawBrett

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Authentic is the attempts by Big Government to Control and Tax.
Clones are when several similar laws follow the first truly successful attempt to Control and Tax Vaping.

Other than that, waste your money as you see fit. Some Nations (China, as an example) have no desire to recognize American Patents. It never hurts to research and discuss your next purchase with fellow Vapers. If you think a Reos or a ProVari is overpriced, buy something cheaper. If you think a Chalice or a K4 is overpriced, buy something cheaper. If something cheaper works, fine. If it doesn't, that's OK too. It's your purchase. Take responsibility for your own decisions.
 

Sirius

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You have to understand a certain mentality. Some feel a concept is a 'clone' like an atty, so everything is a 'clone' of the first atty. They don't believe in intellectual property, industrial design ownership, name and trademark ownership. A Nike shoe is just a 'clone' of the first shoe, so buying counterfeit Nikes is ok, because they are cheap and are all 'clones' of the first shoe. It is a mantra of the entitlement generation...

I use to build CNC machines for a living..Here in the US you pay out the ying yang for an hours worth of machining on a CNC and that cost is figured into the cost of a mod when you buy a USA Made mod like the King and others. In China their currency is devalued so much that same mod,..made out of basically the exact materials will cost you 1/4 as much..That is the attraction and difference between an authentic mod made in the Philippians,..Greece ,..or the USA and one made in China or Japan..

I just bought a Vulcan,..(authentic RDA) and it has top quality machining and made out of good stainless steel. It was just under $60..That very same atty if made here in the US would be double at the very least...So the atty is LESS valuable because it costs less? It does the very same thing as one of the more expensive RTA's like the SvoeMesto made in Germany (I think a Kayfun Light is around $70 or so..not sure) or even a more expensive RDA by Viscous Ant and others that are well over $100..So yeah,..what it boils down to is the counterfeiting for most that are against clones..Oh and BTW,..I've not seen many US Patents on mods or attys..Not even on my REO's Mods LPG.

I'm sure Uncle Youwanone has cloned the squonkers too somewhere. Matter of fact,..if you know what a bottom feeder mod is,..the design is basically the same for the Italian,..French,..and possible others out there as the very first one..the REO's Mod. I bet nobody considers those rip-offs because they are pricey.

Gawd I wished all this elitist BS would go away and people would lighten up a bit..I'll not knock anyone that buys a clone in order to afford to vape. I'm no better than they are because I own a REO's Mod.
 
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Sirius

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Authentic is the attempts by Big Government to Control and Tax.
Clones are when several similar laws follow the first truly successful attempt to Control and Tax Vaping.

Other than that, waste your money as you see fit. Some Nations (China, as an example) have no desire to recognize American Patents. It never hurts to research and discuss your next purchase with fellow Vapers. If you think a Reos or a ProVari is overpriced, buy something cheaper. If you think a Chalice or a K4 is overpriced, buy something cheaper. If something cheaper works, fine. If it doesn't, that's OK too. It's your purchase. Take responsibility for your own decisions.

Well said Papaw Brett.:thumbs:
 

ErnieKim

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This, I don't understand. I've been online for about 20 yrs, have downloaded and uploaded loads of stolen software, music and vids and have been well aware that I steal and facilitate the stealing of "intellectual property". The people with whom I have associated with in these environments - well, we have all referred to ourselves as thieves or pirates.

When I bought my Tobeco K4 in January, I was well aware that I was stealing intellectual property. I did not attempt any internal moral justifications. This is probably the only place I've been online where those who steal deny that they are doing so, and attempt to denigrate those who do not steal with expressions such as "elitist" etc. I've stolen Photoshop at least once, but have never bad mouthed those who buy it.

I don't know how much a Kayfun V4 is "worth", but it's pretty obvious to me that a German worker earns more, has better holidays, better working conditions, and better social care based on his taxes than his Chinese counterpart working out of some shed or other. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply delusional. Add to that the costs of R&D and yes, an auth is going to cost more than a Chinese clone. You only have to take the K4 apart, look at it, think about R&D and it's plain that it's "worth" more than 20 dollars. Those who buy a 20 dollar clone as opposed to paying the 180 asking price of an auth thinking, and vehemently protesting, that they are somehow going "against the man" are operating under some kind of logical misconception that simply mystifies me.

Cars tend to have 3 pedals. That don't mean that all 3 pedal cars are clones of the first 3 pedal car. Buy a Ford or steal a Merc; I don't care - just, if you decide to steal the Merc, don't try to take any moral high ground.

You are correct, you don't understand. You need to go back and read previous threads as you have everything totally backwards.
 
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ErnieKim

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Is it doofy or goofy?

Ideas from China? Please get real. Svoemesto sure sounds Chinese to me. The end of clones is coming. By supporting cheap mods and clones all you're doing is giving states and the FDA ammunition. Cheap exploding mods etc all from China.

You can't defend your position legitimately so now you bring up generics affecting the FDA position on vaping. Typical of how you roll; very, very sad. It's probably best that you stop hiding behind your computer screen, go play with your "Made-in-China" PIng golf clubs and stop trying to interact with the big boys.
 
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roxynoodle

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Yeah, there are some hypocrisies here that just make me roll my eyes.

I've always wondered why Russians are ok when they are nearly direct rip offs of Kayfuns (prior to the k 4) and are made in China, but the eXpromizer is not ok because its made in China? There is only one reason that I can see, and that's that the Russian cost more.

These are my reasons for buying clones:

1. A test drive because I have to be prudent with my finances.
2. To throw off tractors, bounce around the barn, etc. So far my 3 cheap authentics all have glass tanks, which doesn't lend well to those activities. I also take them out when I do errands and go to houses where rambunctious children live.

I also fully admit to what they are. I don't lie about it.
 

roxynoodle

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Oh, I also have one case where I wanted a specific clone. I wanted the Wotofo ZNA because it has 20 x 1 threading. Because I can hybrid some attys to it, and even use the tubes for some mechs in place of the mod's tube. That might be silly, but I wanted it. I put a real DNA30 in, and I really like it.

Admit though, I wouldn't mind also having an authentic red ZNA lite and some of the colored tubes you can get. But, I also admit for the cost of a new one, I would rather have another sx mini, so this is one I hunt used.
 

stevegmu

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Interestingly enough, selling branded fakes may be a federal crime...
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (link is external) (FBI) investigates criminal counterfeiting, piracy, and other federal crimes. You can report suspicions concerning the manufacture or sale of counterfeit or pirated goods to the FBI by contacting your local FBI Office and asking to speak with the Duty Complaint Agent. To obtain contact information for your local FBI office, you can call (202) 324-3000 or by visiting us here (link is external). If you suspect products for sale on the Internet are counterfeit or pirated, you can report your suspicions to the FBI Internet Fraud Complaint Center via the Internet. An electronic complaint form is available here (link is external).

Intellectual property crime, such as copyright piracy, trademark counterfeiting, or Internet fraud, like any other crime, should be reported to appropriate law enforcement investigative authorities at the local, state, federal, or international levels, depending on the scope of the crime. Citizens or companies aware of federal crimes should report them to local offices of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The FBI has offices throughout the United States. In general, federal crimes may be reported to the local FBI office by a telephone call and by requesting the “Duty Complaint Agent.”

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) | STOPfakes.gov
I went to a vape shop earlier looking for a Kayfun 'clone', but they had none, just other fakes...
 

ricks

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