Your handing turning green will happen with an authentic mod too if it's made of copper and given time to patina.
clone vs Authentic: The Real Discussion
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Your handing turning green will happen with an authentic mod too if it's made of copper and given time to patina.
I choose to support our local modder. The Zen Factory Outlet is 6 miles from my home so I have a ZNA, a Zenesis System Mini atomizer, and 3 House of Hybrids tube mods. I like the fact that my purchases support our local community.
My experience with clones has been pretty poor. Before I found out about the ZFO I dealt with another local B&M. I have a pile of devices that I spent too much money on and didn't last more than a month. They include a Zenith RDA that the negative posts fell out of, a black stingray tube mod that the top cap fell apart on, and a nemesis with a crunchy switch that only fires 50% of the time.
I also have a KFL that I bought that only lasted a month before I found the center screw/post had snapped at the air intake hole. Not sure how it happened because the device was well cared for and never been dropped. I've since replaced it with an authentic KFL+ and it works and tastes 100% better...
When I look at how much the clones (No-Smoke B&M Brand) cost me, I wish I would have saved my money and just bought authentic to start with. My ZFO stuff is flawless and has never let me down, they have a customer for life...
My experience with clones has been pretty poor. Before I found out about the ZFO I dealt with another local B&M. I have a pile of devices that I spent too much money on and didn't last more than a month. They include a Zenith RDA that the negative posts fell out of, a black stingray tube mod that the top cap fell apart on, and a nemesis with a crunchy switch that only fires 50% of the time.
I also have a KFL that I bought that only lasted a month before I found the center screw/post had snapped at the air intake hole. Not sure how it happened because the device was well cared for and never been dropped. I've since replaced it with an authentic KFL+ and it works and tastes 100% better...
When I look at how much the clones (No-Smoke B&M Brand) cost me, I wish I would have saved my money and just bought authentic to start with. My ZFO stuff is flawless and has never let me down, they have a customer for life...
Pretty sure you can find a $5 screw driver that will fit as well. Don't get me wrong.....i understand the need for paying a premium for tools when comparable versions can't be found cheaper (I'm a horseshoe remember 
), but in general the tool comparison works better for the pro clone side of the debate when not dealing in specialized tools, with a few exceptions that I've found....drill bits, files and chisels......haven't found good cheap versions of those .
Yes, some clones may differ from the originals in minor details, but not all of them are plagued with the issues mentioned, and not all authentics are without the same issues. True not all clones are created equal, and the good ones can be a little more expensive, but still a far cry cheaper then an authentic. I can't justify the premium price tag, especially when my nemy clone is so good. I don't have threading issues, the materials are good, the machining is great, and it functions as good, if not better, then the origional
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), but in general the tool comparison works better for the pro clone side of the debate when not dealing in specialized tools, with a few exceptions that I've found....drill bits, files and chisels......haven't found good cheap versions of those . Yes, some clones may differ from the originals in minor details, but not all of them are plagued with the issues mentioned, and not all authentics are without the same issues. True not all clones are created equal, and the good ones can be a little more expensive, but still a far cry cheaper then an authentic. I can't justify the premium price tag, especially when my nemy clone is so good. I don't have threading issues, the materials are good, the machining is great, and it functions as good, if not better, then the origional
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I agree with most of that, since I wasted lots of money on clones I just want gone and wish I never bought. But, as a first mech mod and atty I don't see anything wrong with buying a clone first, to decide if you want to go in that direction or not. I also am learning that keeping a clone or two is good to have. Why bring out an authentic setup somewhere it can easily get lost, stolen or damaged. If you lose or break or drop a clone it's not going to kill you, you might be upset but for authentic users it'll be a big relief that your real deal setup is safe.
I don't think there is anything wrong with owning a clone as a first set up. No one expects anyone (or should) to start vaping with 100+ plus dollars. My first mech mod was a HCigar nemesis clone and IGO-L.
Pretty sure you can find a $5 screw driver that will fit as well. Don't get me wrong.....i understand the need for paying a premium for tools when comparable versions can't be found cheaper (I'm a horseshoe remember
Yes, some clones may differ from the originals in minor details, but not all of them are plagued with the issues mentioned, and not all authentics are without the same issues. True not all clones are created equal, and the good ones can be a little more expensive, but still a far cry cheaper then an authentic. I can't justify the premium price tag, especially when my nemy clone is so good. I don't have threading issues, the materials are good, the machining is great, and it functions as good, if not better, then the origional
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Tools probably aren't the best example to use since, if you went to a real auto mechanic shop, you'd more than likely see snap-on or mac tools instead of Stanley or Craftsman tools even though they have lifetime warranties.
For some people clones work fine and their happy with it. But, you did admit they aren't created equal. Some clones don't even have all if any different sized battery tubes, but just extension pieces. I was like you before and had no problems with clones until I tried using and buying authentic pieces and noticed a lot of differences. Biggest one was that authentics hit better. Have you tried using an authentic Nemesis? I have a SS clone Nemesis and tried a SS authentic Nemesis with the same atty and a fully charged battery in each and I'd pick the authentic over the clone any day.
There are many reviews of clones on the market with lower voltage drops and harder hits then their respective authentics.....when I said not equal I was referring to clone vs. clone. There are clones that are equal to the originals. In an ideal world, said clones would only copy the style, and not the logo/branding of the original, but this isn't an ideal world
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Lol...where's the dead horse?? It's time for it's beating!
I have close to 100 mods. Roughly 1/2 are authentic, 1/2 are clones. I'll never buy another authentic unless it truly is unique. Now, they're pretty much all the same with a different etching and possible locking mechanism. $200 for a metal tube is stupid.
I have close to 100 mods. Roughly 1/2 are authentic, 1/2 are clones. I'll never buy another authentic unless it truly is unique. Now, they're pretty much all the same with a different etching and possible locking mechanism. $200 for a metal tube is stupid.
I'll add this...don't buy crappy $15 clones and expect amazing vapage. Can it happen? Sure, but spend a bit more $$ on a quality HCigar, Infinite, etc. clone and realize all clones are not created equally. Some mod makers will admit, begrudgingly, that clones of their authentics are better. Not all, but some. My $230 Mutant hit like crap so I flipped it. My Mutant clone is amazing. Same story for maybe 10-12 mods and clones I own.
I'm going to make this comment then shut up. I make get villafied by some but so be it.
I've read numerous times in numerous threads about modders being greedy. I understand that buying and selling here on the forum we are not allowed to set up shop for profit, the idea is to sell what you aren't using for a fair price.
Manufacturing/ modding is not the same. These people/businesses (businesses are nothing more than a group of people with a common goal) are doing what they do in order to make $. Some have other motives such as helping bring innovations to market, saving the environment, etc but the primary goal of a business is to make $ for the owners or shareholders no mater what they say.
There are problems with free enterprise but they pale in comparison to the issues with other market types. There are always going to be individuals or businesses that try to cut corners or put bad or unsafe products on the market to make a quick buck. For this reason I'm not against all regulation but for the most part, capitalism regulates itself. If a product is bad, unsafe or even just unsuitable the company won't sell them at any price for any length of time and will eventually change their strategy or go out of business.
This brings me to value. The value of an item is based on how much someone is willing to pay. How much did the materials cost that went into the Mona Lisa? The cost of the materials is irrelevant. When someone tries to sell a product for more than its value, guess what happens... it doesn't sell. The fact that these modders are selling out run after run of their products says that the value is there. If it wasn't, they would be sitting on a boatload of product.
Anyone who has owned or been involved in a small business knows also that a large portion of the final price of the product is made up of imbedded taxes. The govt always gets it's pound of flesh. This is addition to the escalating cost of liability insurance which has to be worked into the pricing. This is in addition to the cost of tooling, set up fees, labor, shipping, space to work from, raw materials and so on.
I fully understand someone not wanting to pay or being able to afford high end mods and accessories but that in no way makes the individual or business asking the price greedy. If you don't want to or can't pay the price, don't buy it. Enough people don't buy it and the value deflates, enough people do and the value goes up, simple as that, supply and demand.
If your boss came to you and said you are being greedy, I need you to take a pay cut, how would you handle that?
Shutting up now.
I've read numerous times in numerous threads about modders being greedy. I understand that buying and selling here on the forum we are not allowed to set up shop for profit, the idea is to sell what you aren't using for a fair price.
Manufacturing/ modding is not the same. These people/businesses (businesses are nothing more than a group of people with a common goal) are doing what they do in order to make $. Some have other motives such as helping bring innovations to market, saving the environment, etc but the primary goal of a business is to make $ for the owners or shareholders no mater what they say.
There are problems with free enterprise but they pale in comparison to the issues with other market types. There are always going to be individuals or businesses that try to cut corners or put bad or unsafe products on the market to make a quick buck. For this reason I'm not against all regulation but for the most part, capitalism regulates itself. If a product is bad, unsafe or even just unsuitable the company won't sell them at any price for any length of time and will eventually change their strategy or go out of business.
This brings me to value. The value of an item is based on how much someone is willing to pay. How much did the materials cost that went into the Mona Lisa? The cost of the materials is irrelevant. When someone tries to sell a product for more than its value, guess what happens... it doesn't sell. The fact that these modders are selling out run after run of their products says that the value is there. If it wasn't, they would be sitting on a boatload of product.
Anyone who has owned or been involved in a small business knows also that a large portion of the final price of the product is made up of imbedded taxes. The govt always gets it's pound of flesh. This is addition to the escalating cost of liability insurance which has to be worked into the pricing. This is in addition to the cost of tooling, set up fees, labor, shipping, space to work from, raw materials and so on.
I fully understand someone not wanting to pay or being able to afford high end mods and accessories but that in no way makes the individual or business asking the price greedy. If you don't want to or can't pay the price, don't buy it. Enough people don't buy it and the value deflates, enough people do and the value goes up, simple as that, supply and demand.
If your boss came to you and said you are being greedy, I need you to take a pay cut, how would you handle that?
Shutting up now.
Everything has it's place.
Authentic for home and personal daily carry use.
Clone for keeping in the Jeep, working in the yard/shop or in the desk at work.
95% of mine are authentic, but I'm not opposed to clones of out of production stuff.
Also, if someone never bothered to patent or protect a device, shame on them. That's part of the job too.
Authentic for home and personal daily carry use.
Clone for keeping in the Jeep, working in the yard/shop or in the desk at work.
95% of mine are authentic, but I'm not opposed to clones of out of production stuff.
Also, if someone never bothered to patent or protect a device, shame on them. That's part of the job too.
To those that say they only buy authentic... What type of car do you drive? What home do you own? Please remember you are driving something that is more than likely modeled after a different car designer and living in a home that is a model of someone's design.
There are very few exceptions to the "car" thing (Mustang / Ford F series etc) but those are still far and few between.
The homes... unless you buy from the designer, you are ALL GUILTY of this. the only exception to this is if you designed your home on your own.
This post sounded a bit harsh after I read it, I do not intend on upsetting anyone. Just pointing out that everyone (almost) buy's clones, also known as "off brand"
There are very few exceptions to the "car" thing (Mustang / Ford F series etc) but those are still far and few between.
The homes... unless you buy from the designer, you are ALL GUILTY of this. the only exception to this is if you designed your home on your own.
This post sounded a bit harsh after I read it, I do not intend on upsetting anyone. Just pointing out that everyone (almost) buy's clones, also known as "off brand"
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My only criteria is it needs to work consistently, and be proven to last. I've taken only one chance, and happened to get lucky, with one of the first generation Hana Modz, back... whenever (16-18 months ago).
I'll gladly pay less, but the damn thing BETTER fire every time I hit that button, and NOT require me to fiddle.
We're getting there.
I'll gladly pay less, but the damn thing BETTER fire every time I hit that button, and NOT require me to fiddle.
We're getting there.
Not going to beat this to death, for the record I own a lot of clone gear but more of what I own is authentic.
One thing that seems to have been overlooked here is the fact that many existing or up and coming modders will simply drop out of the game if they aren't supported. The authentics are being clones almost faster than they can be brought to market which means the manufacturers have to recoup their costs as quickly as possible, in essence the clones drive the cost of the authentics up.
My biggest fear is that someday soon our gear choices will be greatly reduced because the actual inventors simply won't be able to continue building such great products. Without the authentics THERE CAN BE NO CLONES.
Case in point: I won't mention his name because I'm not sure he wants it to be public knowledge but I exchanged email with a ground breaking modder the other day and he has dropped out of the game. We may not feel it right away but that is a terrible loss to the vaping community and it will contiue to happen.
Just my $.02
One thing that seems to have been overlooked here is the fact that many existing or up and coming modders will simply drop out of the game if they aren't supported. The authentics are being clones almost faster than they can be brought to market which means the manufacturers have to recoup their costs as quickly as possible, in essence the clones drive the cost of the authentics up.
My biggest fear is that someday soon our gear choices will be greatly reduced because the actual inventors simply won't be able to continue building such great products. Without the authentics THERE CAN BE NO CLONES.
Case in point: I won't mention his name because I'm not sure he wants it to be public knowledge but I exchanged email with a ground breaking modder the other day and he has dropped out of the game. We may not feel it right away but that is a terrible loss to the vaping community and it will contiue to happen.
Just my $.02
On the business/greed note:
Go try to buy an authentic mod somewhere. The exact one you want. Right now. You can't.
Authentic modders are simply taking advantage of a spike in interest to the hobby.
They make a metal tube, etch a design on it, hype something "unique" about it. But lets be honest, no mech mod is 250 dollars unique.
Then they only make a small run to make it seem exclusive.
This way they can make more money doing less. On one hand props to them, they are taking advantage of the hype, and cashing in.
And they are doing it with minimal investment from their end.
Less product, less cost, higher price due to perceived exclusivity/rareness = Most profit for least work/input.
Meanwhile someone in China makes something very similar and sells it for 30 bucks. They too make a profit. Probably a much larger profit. Because they realize that as long as they make them, people are buying them.
You sell 1,000 rare authentics and make 200 bucks a piece, you made 200,000 dollars. Not bad.
You sell 100,000 mods for 30 bucks. Your margin probably 10 bucks. you just made a million bucks.
I guess modders are being more lazy than greedy at the end of the day.
As for Value:
The value is created by the manufactured "exclusivity" of the small production run.
Basically, these guys are getting in, and getting out as quick as they can.
They got the cash. And then they might make another production run 6 months later. "Excusivity" is already manufactured, so they sell out of their 1,000 mod run again. The cycle repeats.
This is present in all industries. Vaping is unique in that this applies to essentially all of the "Authentic" mod makers. Thus the reason for the all the posts about it.
LOL... I don't see the Reo being cloned any time soon. I will have me one though.... even if it cost me 2 bills.
What? Sorry, but I'm not able to put the pieces together on this one.
My car and house weren't produced in a Chinese sweat shop using stolen designs.
I personally have never even considered the difference.I do remember years ago my first purchase there is no comparison to what we are using this day and time.
Has the fake nock offs of expensive hand bags caused them to stop being made? The answer is no, there will always be real Gucci, Coach etc. bags because there is a market for them. Same thing applies to mods. If a manufacturer of an "authentic" quits, its not because clones were being made, it's because their business model was poor and unable to sustain itself. Place the blame where it's really due. No argument can be reasonably made for 5 dollars worth of material being truly worth a 200 dollar price tag. People pay that much for the same reason people pay thousands for a coach bag....bragging rights, plain and simple. Can you find a clone that is as good of quality? Yes. Are some clones better then the originals? Again yes. Would the clone impress your buddies down at the vape shop? Probably not.
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I agree with some of your points however, anyone who says an entrepreneur does anything out of laziness does not understand small business ownership. Having owned a couple myself I can tell you, self employment is not for the lazy.
The exclusivity business model is a legit model, but only if the product performs. Sell one for $1,000,000 or 1,000,000 for $1, either way you have $1,000,000. Your model, to a large degree, is determined by the size of your customer base.
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