Clones... Why?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ed_C

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 11, 2013
2,675
3,406
Seligman, MO
Just out of curiosity, has anyone read or heard anything from an original builder that would indicate that they were upset about having their products copied? It was reported that at least one builder, seemed to like the idea that he was "big time" enough to get cloned. It just occurred to me, that if none of the builders really care, this might all be a moot point.
 

ACIDXFX

Full Member
Verified Member
Jan 13, 2014
66
31
Halethorpe, MD, USA
Just out of curiosity, has anyone read or heard anything from an original builder that would indicate that they were upset about having their products copied? It was reported that at least one builder, seemed to like the idea that he was "big time" enough to get cloned. It just occurred to me, that if none of the builders really care, this might all be a moot point.

Not that I want to speak for anyone, but I remember the guy who made the Gnome (From a MD shop called The Vapers Knoll), saying he felt honored that there was enough interest in his mod to be cloned. The clone surfaced long after the mod went out of production anyway, and just by the SN you could tell if it was real or not. (Real were numbered 1 to 250, and clones had an extra '0' in front)

The problem is that so many people look down on those of us who buy "clones" as if we are doing it to be dishonest. I work full time, and make decent money, but I can't justify spending $250 on a metal tube with some copper contacts. I know the development takes time and effort, but if there wasn't a clone market, I wouldn't have any mods.

If I could afford the real thing, I'd buy it. But I can't, and clones give me a way. I'd never apologize for buying a clone.
 

Bad Ninja

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jun 26, 2013
6,884
17,225
God's Country
It is impossible to patent the design of a mod.
This would be a "Utility Patent".
No Modder can get one because none can show they own the design.
Re-making a horn switch doesn't mean you own the design
It's not an art contest.


Copying a trademarked logo is an entirely different matter, and is the only legal leg any Modder has to stand on.
Are the logos copyrighted? That's the only legal issue here.
 

ACIDXFX

Full Member
Verified Member
Jan 13, 2014
66
31
Halethorpe, MD, USA
Buying a "replica" or "clone" or what ever you want to call it for the purpose of using it as intended should be acceptable. Just the same way if I was to buy a replica firearm or painting and display it in my house.

Now if you purchase one with the intent to pass it off as real, and dupe someone out of money, that is wrong. You should be fired out of a canon into the sun at that point.
 

MrKiltYou

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 1, 2014
81
42
46
San Francisco, CA
As evidenced here on ECF, the real reason legit owners hate clones is resale value.

I don't believe that clones are hurting the resale value. Maybe stupidly I paid full price for a used HanaMODZ V3 in the classifieds section even though you can get a clone relatively easy. I think there is even a co-op listed for one. I just wanted the real thing and the only place doing a pre-sale that would be available in June I heard bad things about.
 

Jman8

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 15, 2013
6,419
12,927
Wisconsin
I'm not sure if copyrights would pertain to what were are talking about. You could register your trademark or try to patent a design, if it was unique enough. But I think all these are generally enforced by the holder and would usually involve engaging legal representation and there would be significant costs involved.

In my understanding of industrial design rights, it borrows or employs the legal language from copyright.

Because of costs incurred from legal representation, I don't see a situation where an original designer, who is mid-sized business or lower, would follow up on legally addressing violations of their 'right to exclusive distribution.' While going after one in court, another could pop up and be engaged in same tactic, thus having original designer forever chasing violators, and going bankrupt in the process.

In some ways, I see the non-deceptive counterfeit market as worse than the deceptive kind, as there isn't general agreement among public to go after the non-deceptive kind, even while it impacts 'exclusive right to distribution.' For a larger company with more resources can steal idea, change a few minor things, and duplicate the product and make greater revenue than the original designer.

In previous discussion on this topic I said that I long for the day when robots / automated machines can produce all the things humans currently produce or provide a service for, as that will even out the lopsided playing field. People (some of whom I know) have no issues with violating copyright, and that sort of piracy since dawn of the internet is rampant. While many have a problem with this, I submit that more do not, and that the same rationale is in play - tough cookies if you don't like copies being made that may, or may not violate copyright, still going to happen regardless of your moral positioning. So, I long for the day when it can all be replicated via automation and no one is profiting from it, just because they can. You may love your business and products it produces / services it provides, but the way global economy and technology is going, you will be undercut by others on the planet who have found both legal and questionable methods to do exactly what you do at much lower costs with greater stream of revenue, even if it means taking your exact products/services and claiming them as their own.

As all that is years away, then I just assume stick to principles of current discussion and try to understand from pro-cloners what is the problem with counterfeiting as they understand it, even the deceptive kind, with the overriding notion that regardless of what you think, it'll still occur.
 

Bad Ninja

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jun 26, 2013
6,884
17,225
God's Country
I don't believe that clones are hurting the resale value. Maybe stupidly I paid full price for a used HanaMODZ V3 in the classifieds section even though you can get a clone relatively easy. I think there is even a co-op listed for one. I just wanted the real thing and the only place doing a pre-sale that would be available in June I heard bad things about.
Every time a new clone pops up you see a ton of posts from legit owners commenting on how sad thy are.
Why? If you already own one? Doesn't affect you ät all unless you plan to resell.
 

MrKiltYou

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 1, 2014
81
42
46
San Francisco, CA
The clone surfaced long after the mod went out of production anyway, and just by the SN you could tell if it was real or not. (Real were numbered 1 to 250, and clones had an extra '0' in front)

It funny that you say this. I just read an ad on Vape Royalty for a mod clone that stays within the OEM serial numbers.

From the site:

Since only 333 genuine Magnetic Mods Windroses were made, your HCigar Windrose Mod will have a serial number that will vary anywhere between 001/333 - 333/333.

HCigar Windrose Magnetic Mods Clone
 

MrKiltYou

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 1, 2014
81
42
46
San Francisco, CA
Every time a new clone pops up you see a ton of posts from legit owners commenting on how sad thy are.
Why? If you already own one? Doesn't affect you ät all unless you plan to resell.

And there is nothing wrong with people wanting to protect the resale value of something they paid a lot of money for.
 

Bad Ninja

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jun 26, 2013
6,884
17,225
God's Country
And there is nothing wrong with people wanting to protect the resale value of something they paid a lot of money for.
Never said it was right or wrong.
I said this is why legit mod owners hate clones.

Clones have not hurt sales of new legit mods
Most are pre-sold and unavailable minutes after their release.

This is all about reselling and profit.
Capitalism at its finest.
 

MrKiltYou

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 1, 2014
81
42
46
San Francisco, CA
Maybe they try to fool themselves into thinking they are the real...

From what I have seen of authentic and counterfeit, I can't imagine buying a counterfeit to see how the authentic performs, as machining is no where as precise with the counterfeits- even pressed parts, vs. machined... I'm sure there are some which are close, but not from what I have seen.

You right in some cases the counterfeit is worse and in some cases equaled to or better than the OEM. That being said lot's can be learned from a counterfeit even if it does not perform exactly. For instance I bought a counterfeit Omega RDA. I learned that I hate doing coil builds on it. It is a pain because the drip well comes up over where the post holes are. Or that my SS Nemesis Counterfeit taught me that I hate bottom fire buttons that are not recessed because I don't always remember to lock it. Or that I bought a Origen V1 counterfeit and turned out I loved it and went out and bought an authentic one in the classifieds.
 

Coelli

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 5, 2014
1,389
3,077
Los Angeles, CA
Just out of curiosity, has anyone read or heard anything from an original builder that would indicate that they were upset about having their products copied? It was reported that at least one builder, seemed to like the idea that he was "big time" enough to get cloned. It just occurred to me, that if none of the builders really care, this might all be a moot point.

Element Mods doesn't seem very happy in this post (it's dripping with sarcasm): https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1454061481495086&id=504061683016641

Kir Fanis had to start serializing and putting their logo on the Privadero: Privadero tank by Kir Fanis - Gr-Modders

Just a couple of examples.

(Just gonna say it again - I wouldn't have an issue with clones if they didn't use the logos and brand names and sometimes serialized them. I'd prefer it if somewhere it was stamped "China" in fact :p )
 
Last edited:

Bad Ninja

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jun 26, 2013
6,884
17,225
God's Country
You right in some cases the counterfeit is worse and in some cases equaled to or better than the OEM. That being said lot's can be learned from a counterfeit even if it does not perform exactly. For instance I bought a counterfeit Omega RDA. I learned that I hate doing coil builds on it. It is a pain because the drip well comes up over where the post holes are. Or that my SS Nemesis Counterfeit taught me that I hate bottom fire buttons that are not recessed because I don't always remember to lock it. Or that I bought a Origen V1 counterfeit and turned out I loved it and went out and bought an authentic one in the classifieds.


Some of you should research the Kayfun Lite story.

The KFL is a clone of a clone.
Made by the OEM of the original Kayfun.

Kayfun came first
Russian 91% was a clone with improvements.
Kayfun lite is a clone of the (improved) Russian 91%.
SM quickly clones the clone and the KFL was born.

Clones help the industry
 

MrKiltYou

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 1, 2014
81
42
46
San Francisco, CA
Some of you should research the Kayfun Lite story.

The KFL is a clone of a clone.
Made by the OEM of the original Kayfun.

Kayfun came first
Russian 91% was a clone with improvements.
Kayfun lite is a clone of the (improved) Russian 91%.
SM quickly clones the clone and the KFL was born.

Clones help the industry

I don't disagree and I own both a KFL+ by SM and a Russian 91%. However unlike the other cloner's they are not using each other respective logo's and such and you can tell the difference.
 

bsoplinger

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 13, 2010
3,268
3,709
Capitol District New York
I read the FB post as positive. Pleased that their design was popular / quality enough that it'd be cloned. Then a somewhat sarcastic reference to the poor quality control done by cheap Chinese manufacturers.

Pretty much a summation of the arguments posted here. As in not being threatened by cheap clones, confident that they have a good product. Implication that they can make more without worrying about being able to sell them.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Purple Tapatalk 2
 

ACIDXFX

Full Member
Verified Member
Jan 13, 2014
66
31
Halethorpe, MD, USA
It funny that you say this. I just read an ad on Vape Royalty for a mod clone that stays within the OEM serial numbers.

From the site:



HCigar Windrose Magnetic Mods Clone

The Gnome clone was from FT I believe. Terrible that HCigar wouldn't at least change the SN's to something more distinct.

To be clear, the Gnome clones appear to also be numbered 1 to 250, but you can tell them apart by the extra '0'

Real would be 123
Clone would be 0123

That seems sufficient to me. If you are going to pay $100+ for a mod, you should do some research. Most mods are done in a specific run with specific serial numbers, and come with COAs. If they ever start forging COAs, then I'm out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread