Clones... Why?

[Bad Ninja]

Bashing original mod buyers?
Really?
Most of the threads start when an owner of an Original mod starts degrading others for buying a clone.
It damages their sense of elitism and they begin the insults. "I have more money than you because I spent $300 on this (mod of choice)", or "since you can never afford..."
Clone owners then respond in kind.
Read the threads. It's all quite clear if you take the Time to look just who the instigators are.



I've always said, it's your money,spend it how you like...... just don't expect me to spend mine based on marketing alone.

 

[Chelonian]

If an original mod buyer does that, then bad on them. It's your own prerogative as to how you want to spend your money.

Either way, the whole debate seems stupid.

From the original buyers side, trying to judge how someone spends their money.

From the clone buyers, the same thing, with the added bonus of supporting counterfeiting, as well as completely ignoring the added value that an original product adds to anything.

It's a case of double dutch ridiculous.

 

[Cearamm]

Some people here are utilizing severely flawd logic that makes me wonder.

Okay i WORK 65 hours a week cutting metal on a CNC machine day in day out. Whoever said that the cost of materials are cheap is a ...... Okay sure low grade steel is cheap, but 304/316 stainless steel bar stock in 1.5in diameter aint cheap. Not to mention that it has to be solid bar not hollow.

Okay when i set up a simple part like a locking ring(example of course), that setup can take anywhere from 30min to 2 hours depending on the tooling required and the fixturing necessary. The part may only take 30 sec to run but the batch setup time is long.

Now a nemesis has 15 components, and thats 15 different tooling and fixture setups and unless you have 15 lathes and 15 operators lying around, thats alot of TIME. Get it?

This doesnt even factor in western rate wages which for a solid machinist can be anywhere from 15-90 dollars per hour. A chinese wage slave is like 2 dollars a day...

Also this doesnt take any of the money and time it took to engineer and develop the product, prototype, test, etc. Engineers make $200/hour easily for one off job work. How many of you can CAD draw a true to life prototype, make the necessary changes after testing, send to .dxf format and convert to a machine program that is equipped to read and run such a program? Right, thats what i thought!

Hey hey lets not forget that the market cost of a well equipped CNC lathe with a couple bells and whistles can run between $60,000 and $300,000 per unit? How many of you have that cash ready to invest? Hmmm didnt think so.

So lets not kid ourselves into thinking that the modders ar getting filthy rich while us stupid proletariats are begging for their mod . Please. I am a craftsman and an artist so i know the work people put into their pieces first hand . And i charge damn good money for my original works, so why shouldnt they? I love supporting local artisans who create beautiful hand made objects. I hate paying china to ruin peoples lives by paying them nothing and condemning them to indentured slavery, and polluting our green earth by dumping toxic waste.

Last point. Most modders make them themselves, like Element Mods, or have a small team of people like 8-10. Small shops.

China has millions of workers in warehouses larger than airports. Im serious. Google largest manufacturing facilities in china and you will be amazed and disgusted...


If anyone is interested i made a blog post about why the Provari costs what it does ad why its worth it...very much in the same vein

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...xplain-why-facts-not-fanyboyism-plz-read.html

I am so off my soapbox but i hope i was able to clarify some issues. And i can come off harsh but thats just too bad!

 

[Necrotic]

Mainly price... an example!

Authentic SvoëMesto Kayfun Lite Plus
EHPro Kayfun Lite Plus Clone

The price is almost half and relatively the same quality. There are some knock-off's that aren't even close to being as good as the real deal but still is a cheaper way to see If you like the build or whatever.

 

[Chelonian]

I see.

It's a case of me me me....what I can buy for my money, without a thought of the overall effect.

It's why jobs in the US have been shipped overseas...so that companies can make higher profit margins selling stuff cheaper to the same folks they have impoverished by moving said jobs.

And that's a lesson that even a failing economy and a ruined middle class didn't teach here, so a discussion about mods on ECF surely won't make any one get it that doesn't.
Me outta here.

 

[Flt Simulation]

It's why jobs in the US have been shipped overseas ... so that companies can make higher profit margins selling stuff cheaper to the same folks they have impoverished by moving said jobs.

Exactly ...

And that my friend is the 'vicious circle' that is slowly destroying the economic wealth of the United States, if it hasn't pretty much already.

Like it or not, the economy of the US has moved completely from an industrial economic based society to a service oriented society.

 

[BaDaBooM]

Bashing original mod buyers?
Really?
Most of the threads start when an owner of an Original mod starts degrading others for buying a clone.
It damages their sense of elitism and they begin the insults. "I have more money than you because I spent $300 on this (mod of choice)", or "since you can never afford..."
Clone owners then respond in kind.
Read the threads. It's all quite clear if you take the Time to look just who the instigators are.



I've always said, it's your money,spend it how you like...... just don't expect me to spend mine based on marketing alone.

You change song every 5mins.
You make stuff up.
Your facts are based on nothing.

You are the one that starts crap about mod makers ripping ppl of and that YOU know how much it costs to make a mod. You have painted yourself into a corner this time and everybody can see in this thread that you are a fraud (would have called you something else but I don't need another warning).

 

[BaDaBooM]

Some people here are utilizing severely flawd logic that makes me wonder.

Okay i WORK 65 hours a week cutting metal on a CNC machine day in day out. Whoever said that the cost of materials are cheap is a ...... Okay sure low grade steel is cheap, but 304/316 stainless steel bar stock in 1.5in diameter aint cheap. Not to mention that it has to be solid bar not hollow.

Okay when i set up a simple part like a locking ring(example of course), that setup can take anywhere from 30min to 2 hours depending on the tooling required and the fixturing necessary. The part may only take 30 sec to run but the batch setup time is long.

Now a nemesis has 15 components, and thats 15 different tooling and fixture setups and unless you have 15 lathes and 15 operators lying around, thats alot of TIME. Get it?

This doesnt even factor in western rate wages which for a solid machinist can be anywhere from 15-90 dollars per hour. A chinese wage slave is like 2 dollars a day...

Also this doesnt take any of the money and time it took to engineer and develop the product, prototype, test, etc. Engineers make $200/hour easily for one off job work. How many of you can CAD draw a true to life prototype, make the necessary changes after testing, send to .dxf format and convert to a machine program that is equipped to read and run such a program? Right, thats what i thought!

Hey hey lets not forget that the market cost of a well equipped CNC lathe with a couple bells and whistles can run between $60,000 and $300,000 per unit? How many of you have that cash ready to invest? Hmmm didnt think so.

So lets not kid ourselves into thinking that the modders ar getting filthy rich while us stupid proletariats are begging for their mod . Please. I am a craftsman and an artist so i know the work people put into their pieces first hand . And i charge damn good money for my original works, so why shouldnt they? I love supporting local artisans who create beautiful hand made objects. I hate paying china to ruin peoples lives by paying them nothing and condemning them to indentured slavery, and polluting our green earth by dumping toxic waste.

Last point. Most modders make them themselves, like Element Mods, or have a small team of people like 8-10. Small shops.

China has millions of workers in warehouses larger than airports. Im serious. Google largest manufacturing facilities in china and you will be amazed and disgusted...


If anyone is interested i made a blog post about why the Provari costs what it does ad why its worth it...very much in the same vein

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...xplain-why-facts-not-fanyboyism-plz-read.html

I am so off my soapbox but i hope i was able to clarify some issues. And i can come off harsh but thats just too bad!

Nice a machinist could chime in.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Bashing original mod buyers?
Really?
Most of the threads start when an owner of an Original mod starts degrading others for buying a clone.
It damages their sense of elitism and they begin the insults. "I have more money than you because I spent $300 on this (mod of choice)", or "since you can never afford..."
Clone owners then respond in kind.
Read the threads. It's all quite clear if you take the Time to look just who the instigators are.



I've always said, it's your money,spend it how you like...... just don't expect me to spend mine based on marketing alone.

You call it degrading when someone who owns a original device lets others know they are contributing to intellectual property theft when they buy clones?

What is being degraded is the owner of the design and his or her ability to preserve the integrity of their work.

Informing people about their contribution to intellectual property theft is not about money or who has it to spend, it is about informing people they have a choice to support protecting intellectual property rights.

If you knowingly buy a new device that is a 1:1 copy of anything, logos or not, you are contributing to intellectual property theft.

Why do some take offence to comments such as "save your money and buy a real one", or anything closely related?

Have you considered that some folks actually feel it is important not to steal?

I have a problem with the kids watching stuff on YouTube, I've made it a point to stop that and explain it to them why it is wrong. Does that make me elitist?

In my book a clone is theft, it isn't like you can steal something a little or a lot but a 1:1 clone if done very well is the worst type of theft imaginable.

1:1 clones detract from the value of originals in a way no other clone can, to the collector who expects his or her device will gain value down the road, and to the original designer who is trying to make a living in competition with his or her own design.

Lets say you write a book and you print it out on your home printer and sell it to people, one of those people decides to clone it, they happen to own a printing and binding company by the way. Your going to lose sales, not get a dime from your work.

When people buy a clone/counterfeit they are handing the thief cash in return for their skills as a thief. Plain and simple as that.

Maurice

 

[Completely Average]

Some people here are utilizing severely flawd logic that makes me wonder.

Okay i WORK 65 hours a week cutting metal on a CNC machine day in day out. Whoever said that the cost of materials are cheap is a ...... Okay sure low grade steel is cheap, but 304/316 stainless steel bar stock in 1.5in diameter aint cheap. Not to mention that it has to be solid bar not hollow.

I had to stop reading there. Too funny.

Please do explain to me why I have to start with a solid bar of metal and cannot order prefabricated tubes which I can simply cut the threads into. Or do shops that sell metal tubing made to customer specifications not exist in your world?

I can't wait to hear this....




Imagine all the trouble plumbers have to go through, cutting their pipes from a solid block of metal, because you apparently cannot buy prefabricated tubes and cut/thread them as needed.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

I had to stop reading there. Too funny.

Please do explain to me why I have to start with a solid bar of metal and cannot order prefabricated tubes which I can simply cut the threads into. Or do shops that sell metal tubing made to customer specifications not exist in your world?

I can't wait to hear this....




Imagine all the trouble plumbers have to go through, cutting their pipes from a solid block of metal, because you apparently cannot buy prefabricated tubes and cut/thread them as needed.

You can buy tubes, but you will still need to finish them on the inside. Using DOM stock would be somewhat limiting as not every metal is formed that way into tubes on a regular basis. Machining welded tube is not likely a pleasant experience and looks like poop.

Maurice

edit; DOM Drawn Over Mandrel (it's a seamless tube method of manufacture), I couldn't find a DOM supplier for 316 or 304 in the size needed to make a mod, not saying that doesn't exist just I couldn't find one.

 

[BaDaBooM]

I had to stop reading there. Too funny.

Please do explain to me why I have to start with a solid bar of metal and cannot order prefabricated tubes which I can simply cut the threads into. Or do shops that sell metal tubing made to customer specifications not exist in your world?

I can't wait to hear this....




Imagine all the trouble plumbers have to go through, cutting their pipes from a solid block of metal, because you apparently cannot buy prefabricated tubes and cut/thread them as needed.

Why don't we just mold them would be easier...

A plumber doesn't need a dead straight pipe and has totally different tolerances to work with. We complain when the button is a little crunchy. Let a plumber fabricate a nemesis switch and them you will know what crunchy is.

 

[Cearamm]

Dude are you really comparing cheap as heck copper plumbing tube that costs 75 cents a foot to high grade extruded stainless steel bar stock?! Why cant you use an extruded hollow tube? Duh because you know nothing about the machining process. I spose you could if there was a cheap supplier and you could find it. But any tolerance issues will invetiably result in that stock being scrap anyway.


Heres how you make a hollow tube from solid bar stock.

Drill pilot hole using small diameter drill on lathe. Finish roughing cut using endmill or similar. Finish pass using boring bar and high rpm. Boring bars range from $700-10,000 depending upon applicaton.

None of that is possible with cheap extrusions of low grade metal. And yes bro...304 stainless from the USA is better than 304 stainless from China. We stopped buying China stock because we would find spoons and drills and wrenches in our stock as we cut them. Gotta love that quality control.

Your ignorance in posting has caused me to realize that you know nothing of manufacture or metalworking and that you are silly.

What gunsmith can create a handcrafted piece in 15 min?

Is that why collectors guns reach millions of dollars in auction value? Cuz theyre easy and cheap to make? Hmm...

 

[BaDaBooM]

Do you REALLY think it's that difficult? Honestly?

I can assure you it's not.

Take a good look at that gun. The ONLY pieces that were prefabricated were the barrel, internal trigger mechanism, and the screws. Every single bit of the rest of it is hand carved, hand cut, hand engraved, hand inlaid, hand formed, hand polished, and hand finished.

My father was the gunsmith who produced this weapon, and I know several other master gunsmiths as well.


I can assure you that the average competent gunsmith could fabricate the average mech mod in about 15 minutes by hand if you don't include engravings or etchings. And those threads you think are oh-so difficult to produces and require big expensive lathes, I've got a newsflash for you, they had be done by hand with a gunsmiths thread tap in a matter of minutes, and will be gunsmith quality, not the shabby work done by the typical mech mod producer.

And unlike your typical mech mod I can assure you that a mech mod made by the gunsmith will have buttons that work flawlessly, batteries that never rattle, and it will work every time you press the button without fail.

It's not hard. It shouldn't take a long time. Making them by hand in a decent workshop, a single person could easily produce a hundred per day. At $200 per unit that's $20,000 per day income on a material investment of less than $50 and a time investment of only 8 hours. At that profit rate they could easily pay for their entire workshop in the first week and pocket more than $95,000 in pure profits per week after that.


You're paying premium prices for high school level design and machine work. One needs look no further than the common button problems, connector pin problems, voltage drop issues, and fitment issues to know that most producers of original mech mods are simply vapers who happened to have access to a machine shop and figured it was an easy way to make a fast buck. The quality of the vast majority of mechs would be considered rejects by industries that rely on precision design and machine work and yet sell their products for less.

Lets have a bet and I'm serious. You get your dad or any other master gunsmith to make 1:1 nemesis in 15 mins on tape, Ill pay you $200 plus you get to keep the mod.

If he can't do it you buy me a $200 mod of my choice. Using your logic that's $200 for 15mins work + you can sell the clone you made to bad ninja for $30. Bad Ninja can join the bet too if he wants, Ill pay you $200 and ninja $200 if you can do it, If I win I get $200 mod from you and one from ninja.

You want to bet ??

 

[hexagondun]

Lets have a bet and I'm serious. You get your dad or any other master gunsmith to make 1:1 nemesis in 15 mins on tape, Ill pay you $200 plus you get to keep the mod.

If he can't do it you buy me a $200 mod of my choice. Using your logic that's $200 for 15mins work + you can sell the clone you made to bad ninja for $30. Bad Ninja can join the bet too if he wants, Ill pay you $200 and ninja $200 if you can do it, If I win I get $200 mod from you and one from ninja.

You want to bet ??

Sign me up for the clone! I'll pay $26.99!

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[Freedombadeaux]

People over value themselves and their product. Let's compare today to 50 years ago. An excellent piece of furniture was about the same price as vapes now. I'm sure you can figure out the rest out my point.

 

[xselvedge]

this thread is hilarious and at the same time, very educational

 

[Freedombadeaux]

I've went without food for a new mod. Just sayin', my addictive nature has no end. I think retailers study addiction and then blast out the ABC's of a product! Material, Size, Color...BAM! They're hooked and they've sold you a car, LOL (I'm out of meds, can't you see, lol)

 

[ericbnc]

I ate bacon with breakfast, and had a hamburger for lunch. In some parts of the world this is abomination X 2 and I still have one meal to go today. I will sleep peacefully tonight in spite of their opinion.

I will vape happily with my clone and not lose any sleep over what someone else thinks about them either...

 

[Chelonian]

People over value themselves and their product. Let's compare today to 50 years ago. An excellent piece of furniture was about the same price as vapes now. I'm sure you can figure out the rest out my point.

As politely as I can ask this...is your point that you don't understand inflation?