Clones... Why?

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Maurice Pudlo

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My only mods are two super t precise+ 18650's and there basically plain metal tubes the only engraving is a small P on the bottom switch and honestly i don't care about the logos. I also use an old DID that has no markings on it.

I like precision engineering not logos, serial numbers or decoration. I use one mod all day every day it never misfires, the switch is perfect. Both mod and atomizer function flawlessly 100% of the time and thats after two years. Thats why i paid here in the czech republic around $350+ for the setup i use. I'm not a wealthy man, I did not buy it to take it out and say hey look at me. I'm also not careful this thing has hit the pub floor 100's of times it's built like a tank.

I just would not pay for a mod because it looked nice. I smoked for 20 years and my cigarettes worked every single time I light one up! I expect the same from my PV. I never took a cigarette out the pack and though, what this thing needs is some big ... engraving down the side.

Each to there own
Dave

I don't know, it's not uncommon to mod smokes; I packed the living crap out of mine and tore off the excess paper. I also always kept them in a cigarette case not the pack they came in. You would have rarely seen me without a nice lighter of some sort.

As for vape gear, I think it's a melding of aesthetic and function. I'm a guy who likes something to appear very simple yet on closer inspection you can see complexity. The Nemesis does this rather well, very fine threading and the top 510 bit with airflow control are enjoyable to look at in that dorky I like metal stuff sort of way. Similarly I like the Genesis atty design, the Senisis, and ZAU are beautiful in their simplicity (I have a GkmF22 on the way which I think is also very attractive and offers a high degree of functionality), and like cigarettes (pre FSC) they all work (assuming you know how to set them up).

So yes, functionality is important, but vape gear serves more functions than just vaporizing e-liquids. If it were all about performance of the vape itself the battery holding device would be a much different critter than it is today. We are in an age where the battery should be the only limiting factor in terms of mechanical mods go, voltage drop is not that hard to avoid if that is the only functional criteria for a design, but it isn't.

You can cobble together a really effective mod out of copper plumbing for a little bit of nothing, and it may very well out perform most mods in the voltage drop tests. I also don't doubt that an outstanding dripper could be made with an assortment of bits of random stuff, (I like to make soda can alcohol stoves, its a totally useless bit of tinkering that gets way more complicated than it needs to be), so having logos and numbers or grooves and flashy stuff is really not required, sure, I get that.

What I don't get is that, while you can make a functioning device that can easily out perform most manufactured devices, and do so for a fraction of the cost of a clone; why do people still argue its about cost? If cost is the main factor, use the lowest quantity of money possible to achieve the desired functionality, clones aren't the lowest cost option.

That leaves us with knowing functionality and cost aren't the primary motivation for buying clones; drippers almost always perform better than anything else and it's kind of hard to get any more simple than a dripper. But they don't have a tank, and ... yep, that's pretty much it, no tank. But a tank allows you to do other stuff and not have to cart around a bottle of juice and stop to drip every few draws. Yes, but, that's not needed to have a wonderful vape.

All I'm getting at here is that an argument that cost and functionality are reason enough to buy into intellectual property theft are empty because you can get better performance at a lower price point crafting your own vape gear with minimal skills. It isn't just performance and price point that drives clone sales, it is the unfortunate belief that it's okay to copy someone's work and if it saves me money it's okay to support that thief.

As for the question about no logo, no serial numbers, would I buy a mod of such design? The design itself is logo enough, however I believe serial numbers have a place, they are both useful to the person making the device and the end user; if a problem comes up a aerial number helps identify the device if the manufacturer keeps track of what materials go into certain serial numbered items. For example if insulators are melting on a certain lot of devices but not others it would be fairly easy to correct the issue, same goes for small design changes or upgrades. An order number is easily lost over time or transfer from person to person.

I'd really like a stainless steel Damascus mechanical mod and Genesis atomizer with gold Damascus details, sleeved in an alloy of silver and gold, I somewhat doubt that would be cloned.

Maurice
 

Maurice Pudlo

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Seeing as I did bring it up I should post links to the process of creating a copper mod :)

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/battery-mods/69216-my-copper-pipe-mod-aka-fog-log-5.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/battery-mods/260516-copper-tube-mod.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...nd-i-think-turned-out-decent-first-try-3.html

Copper Tube Mods - A 3.7v and a V.V.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/175281-my-take-copper-mod.html

Your point is well taken, not everyone can make a working device out of scrap metal, which to me at least drives the point home even harder; why contribute to the theft of someone's work who can do what is not by its very nature easy to do?

A real Nemesis is around $179.95 USD when in stock, that isn't all that bad; drop cable, internet, and/or the phone for several months and any number of other money saving methods and your there in no time.

To me it is more about the "where there is a will there is a way", if you buy an original and don't like it, you can sell it no problem and seeing as right at this moment they are out of stock I doubt you would lose a dime, someone might even pay more than you did to get their hands on one right away. You aren't going to have that ability with a clone, no matter how close to 1:1 it is.

I like to save money just like the next guy, still it took me a while to realize that you do sometimes have to spend a bit more to save more in the long run. I'd much rather have a single MOD that cost $180 than 8 that cost $22.50, same end result and I can't stuff all 8 deals in my mouth at one time anyway (though I bet they would collectively hit like a train :facepalm: ).

Ok. What are the good clones, and what are the bad ones? Made by who? This is the million dollar question. Let's get this established once and for all! What's the best singray, what's the best nemesis, and what about the 26650 hades clones??

There are no good clones.

Maurice
 

Psionic

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As for the question about no logo, no serial numbers, would I buy a mod of such design? The design itself is logo enough, however I believe serial numbers have a place, they are both useful to the person making the device and the end user; if a problem comes up a serial number helps identify the device if the manufacturer keeps track of what materials go into certain serial numbered items.

Serial numbers on works of art no longer serve their original purpose, especially for items that are reproductions on a prototype. At one time artists would do a limited run of reproductions on an original work and place a serial number along with an authentic signature to validate its provenance. Too easy to counterfeit so now we use watermarks or computer chips to validate provenance.

Sure serial numbers can be used to track imperfections or changes on a run of numbers but I don't believe this to be the case on authentic mechanical mods that are to be thoroughly inspected and identical in construction across the entire run. In this case I believe the serial numbers are there to validate the element of limited supply and value. Collectors loved serial numbers but now they love watermarks and computer chips on their collectibles.

I think its safe to say that desired serial numbers like 001, 007, 888 etc., are really tough to acquire so I wonder why mod makers placed serial numbers on their products in the first place. The only answer I can come up with is advertising scarcity.
 

Maurice Pudlo

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Serial numbers on works of art no longer serve their original purpose, especially for items that are reproductions on a prototype. At one time artists would do a limited run of reproductions on an original work and place a serial number along with an authentic signature to validate its provenance. Too easy to counterfeit so now we use watermarks or computer chips to validate provenance.

Sure serial numbers can be used to track imperfections or changes on a run of numbers but I don't believe this to be the case on authentic mechanical mods that are to be thoroughly inspected and identical in construction across the entire run. In this case I believe the serial numbers are there to validate the element of limited supply and value. Collectors loved serial numbers but now they love watermarks and computer chips on their collectibles.

I think its safe to say that desired serial numbers like 001, 007, 888 etc., are really tough to acquire so I wonder why mod makers placed serial numbers on their products in the first place. The only answer I can come up with is advertising scarcity.

When you want to establish scarcity you make a serial number like this 001/100 ... 100/100 or you advertise a limited number from the get go.

When I make a print of a drawing I do, the prints are both signed and serial numbered in the 001/100 ... 100/100 manner by hand. I'll grant you this is easy to counterfeit, however counterfeits are counterfeit no matter how close there are a number of way to verify authenticity other than signatures and serial numbers. The fact is that anything made can be counterfeit, that does not make it right or good.

An artist (in our case mod designers) don't need to go to extreme lengths to verify the retail device of their design is theirs by way of intrusive markings, they do so as part of the design or they hide the markings, or they add nothing at all, it is very much a design choice. Typically limited runs have added value in the secondary collector market more so than in the original market. Still a limited run on a bad design is not going to hold value very long regardless, there are some exceptions to even this rule such as when real junk things become collectible because people just trashed the whole lot of them, 50 years down the road someone wants to remember their childhood easy bake oven and BAM it's worth hundreds in mint condition?!?!?!

I look for serial numbers that match my birth date or house number or some other identifiable to me series of numbers, it's fun.

Maurice
 

blueGrassTubb

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Ok. What are the good clones, and what are the bad ones? Made by who? This is the million dollar question. Let's get this established once and for all! What's the best singray, what's the best nemesis, and what about the 26650 hades clones??

It depends on the exact model we're talking about.

Many hail the Hcigar Nemesis as the best Neme clone, one that performs close to the original.
Most would also say that the Infinite Stingray is the best Stingray clone (particularly the Black Copper version), again, one that performs about equal to the original.
I've heard many dealers say that the Infinite Caravela is, by far, the best Caravela. Some say it's even better than the original because it fixes some serious problems with the original (particularly the need for multiple 510 contact pins).

There are no hard and fast rules about which is The Best clone. It depends on the model. Some model have nothing but BAD clones. The point is that you need to research each clone you want and go from there.
 

Chelonian

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I have seen the hcigar clone of the russian.
Close, but no cigar.
The appraiser in you was somehow blinded to much smaller screw heads, non beveled deck top, shallower channels and a thinner negative insulator.
All the parts would swap but for the insulator, but as for it being the same metal?
From CHINA?
As for threading...good, not as good as the original. oh yeah....except for the cline tank damn near fusing the the russian base. thank god for noalox on the russian
Most shops wont source chinese metal due to inherent defects.
You want a good clone? Buy the Russian
Once assembled with its native parts the hCigar performed fine, however.
I am not baised towards originals, so I acknowledge the HCigar vaped fine. Mine outperformed, but it couldve been the coil.
I am just against ripoffs.
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TheBeardedMann

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What makes engine parts interesting? Hemispherical heads? Roller tip rockers? What makes a mod interesting? Honestly, I don't know of a mod that has a revolutionary design change from the basics - tube, top with contact point, bottom with moving contact point. Aesthetics is what really makes mods different (yes, material too). The Tree of Live, King and Nemesis all look pretty similar for example.
 

xtwosm0kesx

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There are no good clones.

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Chelonian

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Hmmmmm.....there is a slight difference begween the cost of the two different objects.
Also, if you live anywhere in the west, if you could afford to smoke, you can afford to buy originals.
I put the money i wouldve spent on smoking in a bucket. At the end of the month, i spend what I want on vape stuff.
At a pack and a half a day, there is plenty of money.
Say you smoked half a pack....wait a little longer for your mod.
So any discussion about money, and not being able to afford it, is all about want.
So you dont want to buy the original....how about not buying ripoffs? Just buy a cheaper original

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SingedVapor

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Well I am a college student and just to be blunt. I cannot yet justify myself spending almost an entire months rent on a mod when I can get something that performs well for a 10th of the price. One day I HOPE to be able to affor the high end real mods, but it's just not plausible on my budget. That being said, i'm not justifying that clones are out there. My only wish is that clones would not use the name/logo of the original manufacture. They could use thier own logo such as the Russian 91% did. I don't think it's necessarily right for people to make clones but from a consumer stand point I should not have to be made guilty with buying something in my budget range. Yes we should all support the makers of these wonderful mods, and one day I hope to. :D
And I live in georgia, where my prefered cigarettes were 3.00 a pack. Even looking at a monthly range that is just at 100 dollars which doesn't come entirely close to some real mods.

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principle

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I put the money i wouldve spent on smoking in a bucket. At the end of the month, i spend what I want on vape stuff.
At a pack and a half a day, there is plenty of money.
Say you smoked half a pack....wait a little longer for your mod.

That argument doesn't really hold water, a lot of the people i know have been trying to give up because they can't afford to smoke anymore. They need that money for food and rent. Therefore there is no money to go in the bucket in the first place.

In the UK right now there are over a million people using food banks just to get enough to eat, look around, a lot of people are now spending their cigarette money on other fun stuff like eating and staying warm. I buy originals because i'm lucky enough to be able to afford it sounds like you are as well, which is great. Nice to see someone with some extra money these days.

Dave
 

Chelonian

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Dave....3x30= 90
So, in six weeks you can afford a good mod.
Not all of them, but thefe are plenty in the 120-180.range.
And let me get this clear.....you can budget vape just fine on an ego kit, but yet you don't want to feel guilty for buying a ripoff?
Really so instead of buying something name brand by saving money you would rather buy the ripoff right now.....says alot

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principle

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Dave....3x30= 90
So, in six weeks you can afford a good mod.
Not all of them, but thefe are plenty in the 120-180.range.
And let me get this clear.....you can budget vape just fine on an ego kit, but yet you don't want to feel guilty for buying a ripoff?
Really so instead of buying something name brand by saving money you would rather buy the ripoff right now.....says alot

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Not sure why you are directing that at me, when i used to smoke it cost $13 a pack and i used to smoke 2 packs a day.

Dave
 
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