Clones... Why?

[Maurice Pudlo]

On the subject of small manufacturing companies not having the assets to address the illegal clones, that is very likely the case, however it does not make stealing another's intellectual property any more legal.

The fine line here being that the original mod makers aren't doing the paperwork shuffle to register, copyright, or patent their products.

So the argument of legality I mentioned above is of questionable validity.

Still the issue is one of ethics and morality, if your so willing to purchase a clone and argue at length to justify the purchase, there exists a moral and ethical void.

On buying a clone after the original goes out of production; you are reducing the value of the small pool of originals by decreasing demand. Plus, cloning in the first place is wrong so it really shouldn't ever come to this in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Just know that when a person looks down on you for owning a clone it is based on a solid moral and ethical argument that the clone itself should not exist, and a question of the purchasers own morals and ethics. It is not about how much money you have or your status in life because of your wealth or lack of it.

The simple fact is you can vape on the cheap and have just as much quality in that vape without buying and supporting companies that clone other designs.

Maurice

 

[bsoplinger]

The simple fact that I'd never spend $200 on a tube and switch renders all the above pointless. I don't decrease the value of the out of production clone because I wouldn't buy one hence no reduction in demand for it.

Stop trying to find justification for the simple fact behind the whole discussion. Either you feel, as in a personal emotional response, that cloning is wrong or you don't. And since it's a feeling no attempt at logic will change anything.

I can accept someone who simply says that they feel it's wrong. I cannot accept spurious arguments on why you feel that way.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Purple Tapatalk 2

 

[blueGrassTubb]

Still the issue is one of ethics and morality, if your so willing to purchase a clone and argue at length to justify the purchase, there exists a moral and ethical void.

Nonsense. There is very solid intellectual and moral ground to thinking that so-called "intellectual property" is protectionist and anti-competitive.

I hope you don't fall. That horse you're riding is mighty high.

 

[Johnny Phatsaqs]

Clones....why?

Because I'm not going to spend $200-$300 on a battery holding tube. That's the short answer. I guess if people were able to patent the design or something....but that's on them. They can legally sell them in the store, so...MORALLY...I guess I'm good. Judge away if you wish, doesn't really bother me.

I'm not concerned about bragging rights or a difference of .00003 volt drop.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Actually there is very solid grounds for protecting intellectual property, it is how we protect the creative efforts of individuals. It is how we reward creativity and progress. Development of any idea takes time and resources that aren't free.

You may be legally justified to buy a clone of a non patented device, that doesn't make your purchase moral or ethical in any way.

There is a huge difference between morally and ethically right and legally right. While clones of non registered devices may be legal, they are clearly and without question not morally or ethically right by any stretch of the definition.

Maurice

 

[Johnny Phatsaqs]

Actually there is very solid grounds for protecting intellectual property, it is how we protect the creative efforts of individuals. It is how we reward creativity and progress. Development of any idea takes time and resources that aren't free.

You may be legally justified to buy a clone of a non patented device, that doesn't make your purchase moral or ethical in any way.

There is a huge difference between morally and ethically right and legally right. While clones of non registered devices may be legal, they are clearly and without question not morally or ethically right by any stretch of the definition.

Maurice

I'm not arguing against the work, original design and so forth not being worth rewarding. It clearly is. BUT, what do you do when they're no longer made? Go to vapetrader and pay 3x what it was originally sold for? Even if I were to pay original msrp from an individual, how does that reward the original guy? I didn't even know about clones/authentic until after I had already bought two mechs. Again, how you feel about my morals is irrelevant to me, as we clearly disagree here. TO ME, these battery holding TUBES are simply not worth hundreds of dollars.

I intend no disrespect.

 

[herb]

Clones....why?

Because I'm not going to spend $200-$300 on a battery holding tube. That's the short answer. I guess if people were able to patent the design or something....but that's on them. They can legally sell them in the store, so...MORALLY...I guess I'm good. Judge away if you wish, doesn't really bother me.

I'm not concerned about bragging rights or a difference of .00003 volt drop.

Can't put it any better than that lol, if people want to spend that kind of money , knock yourself out but I'm never going to drop that kind of coin on one, and you don't have to (contrary to popular belief ) .

I get by perfectly with spending far less.

 

[garpt01]

Hmmmmm.....there is a slight difference begween the cost of the two different objects.
Also, if you live anywhere in the west, if you could afford to smoke, you can afford to buy originals.
I put the money i wouldve spent on smoking in a bucket. At the end of the month, i spend what I want on vape stuff.
At a pack and a half a day, there is plenty of money.
Say you smoked half a pack....wait a little longer for your mod.
So any discussion about money, and not being able to afford it, is all about want.
So you dont want to buy the original....how about not buying ripoffs? Just buy a cheaper original

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Cigarette smoking is an addiction. A very strong one as well. People with addictions to various drugs/ substances would steal from their own mothers to buy more. That's why I stopped smoking- to save money and get off the filthy addiction. So, cost is extremely relevant. When I was on food stamps and jobless several years ago, I still figured out how to buy cigarettes. Does that mean I could afford it?

I can't afford a $200+ mod in my budget.

A $30-$40 clone that performs almost as well and looks good, yes!

 

[Firestorm]

I'll stick with originals then! I like quality. Thanks fellas!

The majority of the time if you buy an authentic mod from the modder directly or an authorized reseller and it has a problem you can get it fixed or replaced. Some really great modders are proactive and send out replacement parts if there is some kind of design flaw or issue with a new mod. With clones you're pretty much SOL and it's always a gamble whether it's close to the original or has minor or major issues.

 

[garpt01]

The majority of the time if you buy an authentic mod from the modder directly or an authorized reseller and it has a problem you can get it fixed or replaced. Some really great modders are proactive and send out replacement parts if there is some kind of design flaw or issue with a new mod. With clones you're pretty much SOL and it's always a gamble whether it's close to the original or has minor or major issues.

I've heard plenty of nightmares regarding customer service/ warranty issues with high-end resellers and manufacturers as well. On the other hand, I bought a nice clone from a U.S. ebayer a few weeks back and had a problem with the switch. The dealer accomodated either an exchange or refund at my choice. So it works both ways. Do you take a *bit* more risk in case of a problem? Sometimes.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Nobody is saying you need to spend $200 to $300 on a battery tube, you can spend about $50 and get one, maybe less.

However if you want a Caravella or Nemesis, or the like, I am saying you should spend that much or however much you need to get it in your hands.

If I were to offer an original and a clone for the same price as a clone I doubt anyone would pass on the original if only allowed to take one of the two.

That right there is telling.

The secondary market value is whatever an item can be sold for, $1000 Caravella's aren't going to find their way into my hands, I don't have that much desire for one of them to spend that kind of money. $180 on a new Nemesis, that isn't a huge deal to my budget, I realize it is to some folks though.

That's where the $50 mods come in, they do the same exact thing for less money. They were pointed out earlier, and nobody is going to give anybody flack for buying and using one. It is within a price range that keeps mechanical mods accessible to anyone without compromising ethics or morals.

The fact that a $50 mod can be had that is also an original destroys the argument that buying a clone of a $200 to $300 mod is justified based on pricing. People are overlooking very reasonably priced vape gear and buying clones because they want to front the image.

For those saying they can't afford more than $30 or $40 on a device, I'd ask that you take a much harder look at your finances; if you can spring $30 or $40 out this month you have the ability to save. If though you are saving to get $30 or $40 extra, you should do something drastic to your overall financial plan. I mean no disrespect with that last statement, my family has an enormous quantity of ongoing legal bills and no real end is in sight, sometimes we can spend other times its let's play the bill lottery and see who gets paid this month. When lawyers make $250 an hour its hard to keep up. So I totally understand what it means to be broke more often than not.

Maurice

 

[Johnny Phatsaqs]

Budget has nothing to do with it for me. Value vs price. As you said, I won't pay $1k for a Caravela, but I like the style of it. So, I have an Hcigar of it. For me, there's no image to front as my mechs stay home or go to my vape store. That's it.

I'm sure, one day, a mod will come along that will make me say "I GOTTA HAVE THE ORIGINAL!" and I will. Having used this Nemmy for a while, it's the only one I'd even consider.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

If I were to offer an original and a clone for the same price as a clone I doubt anyone would pass on the original if only allowed to take one of the two.

That right there is telling.

The only thing that it tells is that you're fluent in false equivalencies.

SInce you nor the market can make such an offer, your point isn't a point at all.

People are overlooking very reasonably priced vape gear and buying clones because they want to front the image.

So?

For those saying they can't afford more than $30 or $40 on a device, I'd ask that you take a much harder look at your finances; if you can spring $30 or $40 out this month you have the ability to save. If though you are saving to get $30 or $40 extra, you should do something drastic to your overall financial plan. I mean no disrespect with that last statement, my family has an enormous quantity of ongoing legal bills and no real end is in sight, sometimes we can spend other times its let's play the bill lottery and see who gets paid this month. When lawyers make $250 an hour its hard to keep up. So I totally understand what it means to be broke more often than not.

Maybe, perhaps, you should MYOB about the finances of others.

 

[Dusif]

Nobody is saying you need to spend $200 to $300 on a battery tube, you can spend about $50 and get one, maybe less.

However if you want a Caravella or Nemesis, or the like, I am saying you should spend that much or however much you need to get it in your hands.

If I were to offer an original and a clone for the same price as a clone I doubt anyone would pass on the original if only allowed to take one of the two.

That right there is telling.

The secondary market value is whatever an item can be sold for, $1000 Caravella's aren't going to find their way into my hands, I don't have that much desire for one of them to spend that kind of money. $180 on a new Nemesis, that isn't a huge deal to my budget, I realize it is to some folks though.

That's where the $50 mods come in, they do the same exact thing for less money. They were pointed out earlier, and nobody is going to give anybody flack for buying and using one. It is within a price range that keeps mechanical mods accessible to anyone without compromising ethics or morals.

The fact that a $50 mod can be had that is also an original destroys the argument that buying a clone of a $200 to $300 mod is justified based on pricing. People are overlooking very reasonably priced vape gear and buying clones because they want to front the image.

For those saying they can't afford more than $30 or $40 on a device, I'd ask that you take a much harder look at your finances; if you can spring $30 or $40 out this month you have the ability to save. If though you are saving to get $30 or $40 extra, you should do something drastic to your overall financial plan. I mean no disrespect with that last statement, my family has an enormous quantity of ongoing legal bills and no real end is in sight, sometimes we can spend other times its let's play the bill lottery and see who gets paid this month. When lawyers make $250 an hour its hard to keep up. So I totally understand what it means to be broke more often than not.

Maurice

But why should we accept an inferior vape quality because of your imaginative rules of ethics and morals?... I see it this way, if you cant bother to take the time to patent or copyright there is no reason to whine about it, and yes they made up the design in their mind and made it... But they didnt patent or copyright, if they did theres not even a case they just gotta file a sure win lawsuit... No patent or copyrights = open game

I will keep buying clones and theres nothing you can do about it, unless you want to pay the difference there is between the clone and the original, might i suggest you take that high horse and ride into the rich people sunset and leave us less fortunate or just slightly more thoughtfull people to our own?... Remember its some metal bits and pieces your buying it is NOT gold plated animatronics with highly complicated software developed by blind munks in the 13th century in a galaxy far far away polished with dolphin tears... Its stainless steel or even brass cut to different sizes and shapes... With a logo...


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[garpt01]

For those saying they can't afford more than $30 or $40 on a device, I'd ask that you take a much harder look at your finances; if you can spring $30 or $40 out this month you have the ability to save. If though you are saving to get $30 or $40 extra, you should do something drastic to your overall financial plan. I mean no disrespect with that last statement, my family has an enormous quantity of ongoing legal bills and no real end is in sight, sometimes we can spend other times its let's play the bill lottery and see who gets paid this month. When lawyers make $250 an hour its hard to keep up. So I totally understand what it means to be broke more often than not.

Maurice

I budget very well for my mods. Several months ago, I bought a $40.00 Nemisis clone. Three months ago I bought a $30.00 Sentinel clone. Two months ago, a $25.00 Hammer clone. Last month a $30.00 StingRay clone. And this month, a $52.00 Hana box mod clone!
Total financial outlay: Less then a"real" Nemisis by itself!
( I like variety and value)

 

[Coldrake]

The fact that a $50 mod can be had that is also an original destroys the argument that buying a clone of a $200 to $300 mod is justified based on pricing. People are overlooking very reasonably priced vape gear and buying clones because they want to front the image.

That's it exactly.

But why should we accept an inferior vape quality

How are you getting inferior vape quality from an original? It's just a metal tube with a button, right?

 

[Johnny Phatsaqs]

That's it exactly.



How are you getting inferior vape quality from an original? It's just a metal tube with a button, right?

Uh, no...that isn't it...EXACTLY. How am I fronting an image when I don't take my mods anywhere? How exactly is me just liking a design fronting anything?

 

[blueGrassTubb]

That's it exactly.

And those who whine on about the evils of clones are only concerned with exclusivity and making sure they have something that others don't or can't have.

See how easy drawing simple minded conclusions is based off of one point of information is?

 

[Coldrake]

I like it, I want it, nothing else matters. I guess that's the bottom line for some people.

 

[roflwaffles]

I like it, I want it, nothing else matters. I guess that's the bottom line for some people.

Yup, and there's nothing wrong with that.

On mods and atomizers clones alone, I've bought a Stingray, a Panzer, a Nemesis, an Atomic, a Kayfun Lite Plus, and a Magma which in total cost me $200, all of which are quality devices. People can buy whatever they want and IMO, I got much more utility and happiness from spending my $200 on 6 clones rather than an authentic which would run me the same price before taxes.

Hell, $200 wouldn't have even gotten me an authentic V3tronix Flip or a MCV Panzer Blackhawk and those devices don't even perform as well as my clones.