[CLOSED - Out of business]

[Mr.Mann]

Thanks for this. There is a lot about VG that I don't know - idk enough to ask questions; purity / sources, etc.

I also wanted to mentioned that I came down with a sinus infection a couple of weeks ago that incuded a scratchy throat (ugh). I wasn't fond of the unflavored when I first tried, but I reached for it agan and BINGO. That's what I needed. It actually felt soothing to vape. It saved the day. I think I would have found the energry to go out and pick up a pack without it.

As it so happens, the only thing I had handy was a clearo with about 10% old coffee vape (crystalized mud) in the bottom. I filled it with WholeCig WTA and ... noticed about an hour later that the wick and everything seemed like I had rinsed them out. It was working nicely. I have no idea if that works for every brand / style / juice but it was a nice surprise. I had a fever at the time, so I may have been hallicinating too. WTA's become my main vape since.

So pleeeeeze stock economy sizes.
I also wanted to thank you for keeping in stock as much as you have.

Oh yeas, the unflavored can be one of the "cleanest" vapes I have. No clogging or anything remotely close to that.

 

[Mr.Mann]

JF, I still haven't been able to get to the PO yet, but I am going to try. I may have to take the baby out for a stroll, but it's in the 90s right now. HOT! That may not sound like a lot to some people, but I am not a heat person, especially with humidity.

 

[Mr.Mann]

JF, it's on its way. The walk was good for me and the baby.

 

[RT88]

thanks Mr. Mann, ok i have a question about WholeCig and no other WTA vendor - does the 24mg have twice the alkaloids as the 12mg? thank you

 

[Mr.Mann]

thanks Mr. Mann, ok i have a question about WholeCig and no other WTA vendor - does the 24mg have twice the alkaloids as the 12mg? thank you

Well, WC sells 25 mg, 20 mg and 18 mg.

The minor alkaloids in:

25 mg WTA is 1.25 mg/mL minor alkaloids/23.75/mL nic
20 mg WTA is 1 mg/mL minor alkaloids/19 mg/mL nic
18 mg WTA is 0.9 mg/mL minor alkaloids/17.1 mg/mL nic

And just for kicks, if a 12 mg/mL WTA was all WTA, with no added nic, there would be about 0.6 mg/mL minor alkaloids and 11.4 mg/mL nic. So if they did sell 12 mg/mL WTA, it would be less than half than what is in the 25 mg/mL.

That is all under the presumption of the 95/5 spread (95% nicotine to 5% minor alkaloids as extracted). Only adding WTA, and not additional nic, to the liquid/solvent (VG base) should result in those numbers (approximately) if diluted correctly to 25, 20, 18 mg/mL. Those values are all based on on the information we have been given by WC.

Frankly, I see no reason to not tell the customer how much they get, which is why I am happy WC is telling us. Of course, what works for you is more particular than just numbers.

If those numbers are off, I apologize.

 

[djezewski]

So far so good with WTA's. I had been down to 5-7 cigarettes a day with reg nic. Yesterday was my first vape ever adding a few drops of WTA unflavored to my premixed. A record 4 cigarettes. Today I had 3 for far. Going to see how well I do today and either keep it at 3 or have one more. It has been about 4 hrs thus far without a cigarette. I don't get the buzz like I have seen drippers on you tube have but there is definitely something to this.

 

[Mr.Mann]

So far so good with WTA's. I had been down to 5-7 cigarettes a day with reg nic. Yesterday was my first vape ever adding a few drops of WTA unflavored to my premixed. A record 4 cigarettes. Today I had 3 for far. Going to see how well I do today and either keep it at 3 or have one more. It has been about 4 hrs thus far without a cigarette. I don't get the buzz like I have seen drippers on you tube have but there is definitely something to this.

What are you using to vape?

 

[djezewski]

I just got a Sigelei Zmax 3 and a Mini Protank 2, using premix and a few drops of WTA. As far as the buzz that some users get perhaps I will get that rush when I am off of analogs..or maybe crank up the voltage on my pvd.

 

[RT88]

Thanks Mr. Mann! 30mL 25mg it is !

 

[Mr.Mann]

Thanks Mr. Mann! 30mL 25mg it is !

Too funny. I would suggest starting out with a 10 mL, but then again, you'll have to pay shipping all over again if you really like it. It's a decision that's not too tough.

 

[flowerpots]

Well, WC sells 25 mg, 20 mg and 18 mg.

The minor alkaloids in:

25 mg WTA is 1.25 mg/mL minor alkaloids/13.75/mL nic
20 mg WTA is 1 mg/mL minor alkaloids/19 mg/mL nic
18 mg WTA is 0.9 mg/mL minor alkaloids/17.1 mg/mL nic

And just for kicks, if a 12 mg/mL WTA was all WTA, with no added nic, there would be about 0.6 mg/mL minor alkaloids and 11.4 mg/mL nic. So if they did sell 12 mg/mL WTA, it would be less than half than what is in the 25 mg/mL.

That is all under the presumption of the 95/5 spread (95% nicotine to 5% minor alkaloids as extracted). Only adding WTA, and not additional nic, to the liquid/solvent (VG base) should result in those numbers (approximately) if diluted correctly to 25, 20, 18 mg/mL. Those values are all based on on the information we have been given by WC.

Frankly, I see no reason to not tell the customer how much they get, which is why I am happy WC is telling us. Of course, what works for you is more particular than just numbers.

If those numbers are off, I apologize.

Wait, I'm only getting 13.75 mg regular nicotine in 25 mg WTA from WC? Does that mean I CAN add some nicotine to it to beef it up?

 

[Mr.Mann]

Wait, I'm only getting 13.75 mg regular nicotine in 25 mg WTA from WC? Does that mean I CAN add some nicotine to it to beef it up?

typo.........23.75 mg/mL

I HATE TYPOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DVap]

We should remember that the oft quoted 95:5 ratio of nicotine to the other alkaloids is really just a generalization. I would more refer to that ratio as "typical" than "average".

Should we be concerned that different tobaccos might produce different WTA profiles? Probably not. When we smoked, we probably had our favorite brand, but overall, any smoke was good in a pinch.

This brings me to a thought I've rolled around a few times. At the current state of the WTA art, WTA is pretty much sold as WTA. The tobacco source isn't really much an issue. Of course, I believe that when WTA is sold simply as WTA, consistency is a good thing... pick a tobacco and stick with it. However, I can see a future where we might have available a choice of tobacco sources. You might have "Dark Air Cured" WTA, or "Virginia Flue Cured" WTA, etc. Each would have a somewhat different alkaloid profile and folks could pick their favorite for reasons real or imagined. I've made WTA from numerous tobaccos, and honestly, I can't tell the difference, so in the end such an evolution to "pick your tobacco source" might fall more into the realm of marketing than any real discernible difference... but some folks just eat up that marketing, so who knows? (remember who thought of it first... )

 

[SouthernBliss]

And just for kicks, if a 12 mg/mL WTA was all WTA, with no added nic, there would be about 0.6 mg/mL minor alkaloids and 11.4 mg/mL nic. So if they did sell 12 mg/mL WTA, it would be less than half than what is in the 25 mg/mL.

Now I am getting confused. For some reason I thought that the WTA and nic were extracted together. So additional nic is added? Not that I care either way because it is good stuff as is. Just confused now.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Now I am getting confused. For some reason I thought that the WTA and nic were extracted together. So additional nic is added? Not that I care either way because it is good stuff as is. Just confused now.

No nic is added to WTA, but you can add nic to a WTA liquid. The minor alkaloids would lessen in percentage. I was making a distinction, by saying "with no added nic," between WTA liquids that have it and WTA liquids that don't have added nic. Here is Dvap's short explanation of this:


You could do WTA a couple ways:

1. WTA Spiked into nicotine (WTA containing minor alkaloids and nicotine) plus more nicotine. This would result in a spread not in line with the natural spread, enhanced in nicotine. Nothing really wrong with this, I guess.

2. WTA as the only alkaloid bearing component.
Dvap

Point number 2 is how WC states they make their retail WTA liquids. This is how I wish all WTA was sold, considering nicotine on its own is not what we're paying extra for; what we are paying extra for is the minor alkaloids aspect of WTA (not to mention the time/resources involved in extracting WTA).

 

[Mr.Mann]

We should remember that the oft quoted 95:5 ratio of nicotine to the other alkaloids is really just a generalization. I would more refer to that ratio as "typical" than "average".

Should we be concerned that different tobaccos might produce different WTA profiles? Probably not. When we smoked, we probably had our favorite brand, but overall, any smoke was good in a pinch.

This brings me to a thought I've rolled around a few times. At the current state of the WTA art, WTA is pretty much sold as WTA. The tobacco source isn't really much an issue. Of course, I believe that when WTA is sold simply as WTA, consistency is a good thing... pick a tobacco and stick with it. However, I can see a future where we might have available a choice of tobacco sources. You might have "Dark Air Cured" WTA, or "Virginia Flue Cured" WTA, etc. Each would have a somewhat different alkaloid profile and folks could pick their favorite for reasons real or imagined. I've made WTA from numerous tobaccos, and honestly, I can't tell the difference, so in the end such an evolution to "pick your tobacco source" might fall more into the realm of marketing than any real discernible difference... but some folks just eat up that marketing, so who knows? (remember who thought of it first... )

Too funny. Dvap, I try to remember to state as a disclaimer (as I managed to do earlier),"[t]hat is all under the presumption of the 95/5 spread." I know that it is never going to be that clear cut, but I think, as I am sure you do, it helps to have something steady and pretty accurate to conceptualize (as if it doesn't get too heady to begin with).

Now, as far as the "current state of the WTA art," I think that is very interesting to think about having those different "marketing" (LOL) options. I fear getting too wonky in here, but I've also read that different types of commercial tobacco, e.g., cigar, pipe, chew, cig (not to mention actual strains) can all have different ratios of nic to minor alkaloids. In the study Minor Tobacco Alkaloids as Biomarkers for Tobacco Use: Comparison of Users of Cigarettes, Smokeless Tobacco, Cigars, and Pipes it was shown that cigar tobacco had the highest minor alkaloid concentration (though it was pretty much all excess nornicotine that made up for the increase--not exactly the alkaloid that I think is all that impressive for why we use WTA---so it doesn't really matter much, but I thought it was interesting). According to that article, most cigarette brands have around 96:4 ratio of nicotine and minor alkaloids. Interestingly, the cigarette tobacco was shown to have the highest anabatine concentration. From what little I know about these alkaloids, the pipe tobacco results look the most appealing to me (93:7, but the only real drop-off in minor alkaloids in pipe tobacco was nornicotine; its nornicotine was less than all the other commercial tobacco products except for snuff which also had the highest concentration of nicotine.)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1508721/pdf/amjph00005-0091.pdf See page #732.

p.s. I wish they had included snus in that study.

 

[DVap]

Mann,

I suspect that any marketing driven WTA "varieties" would only serve to muddy the water. I mentioned that I think it's wise to pick a tobacco source and stick with it for the sake of a consistent product. Obviously producers have to be aware of the subjective customer response to the product made from their selected alkaloid source. If customers were to generally say, "This stuff just doesn't quite feel right", or "This stuff makes me feel odd".. the sensible thing to do is formulate using a tobacco that gets better responses as far as how it feels. Instead of looking for variety for variety's sake, the goal should be a consistent and effective product.

Going forward, I think the direction things may take will involve some expensive testing. Finding reliably available and consistent raw material (tobacco) that not only produces a positive subjective response from customers, but also raw material that is demonstrably low in TSNA content. The expense is in the research and testing involved in identifying and securing such raw material, but the payoff to this expense is obvious. I'm not giving away any secrets here; it's pretty obvious to me that any producer should realize this as a desirable goal.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Mann,

I suspect that any marketing driven WTA "varieties" would only serve to muddy the water. I mentioned that I think it's wise to pick a tobacco source and stick with it for the sake of a consistent product. Obviously producers have to be aware of the subjective customer response to the product made from their selected alkaloid source. If customers were to generally say, "This stuff just doesn't quite feel right", or "This stuff makes me feel odd".. the sensible thing to do is formulate using a tobacco that gets better responses as far as how it feels. Instead of looking for variety for variety's sake, the goal should be a consistent and effective product.

Oh, totally.

Going forward, I think the direction things may take will involve some expensive testing. Finding reliably available and consistent raw material (tobacco) that not only produces a positive subjective response from customers, but also raw material that is demonstrably low in TSNA content. The expense is in the research and testing involved in identifying and securing such raw material, but the payoff to this expense is obvious. I'm not giving away any secrets here; it's pretty obvious to me that any producer should realize this as a desirable goal.

I want to amend something I said earlier, or rather stress a point I made on the side. When I said "what we pay extra for is the minor alkaloids," that may be only superficially correct. At the end of the night, what we pay extra for (as I alluded to earlier in my parenthetical), is all the time, research, money and sheer labor, etc., involved. Granted, I only barely know topographical stuff involved in the making of WTA, but whether its exclusive or not, the bottom line is that this is not just throwing tobacco in to a solvent and straining it though a coffee filter. That I do know.

 

[jfresh]

Mann,

I suspect that any marketing driven WTA "varieties" would only serve to muddy the water. I mentioned that I think it's wise to pick a tobacco source and stick with it for the sake of a consistent product. Obviously producers have to be aware of the subjective customer response to the product made from their selected alkaloid source. If customers were to generally say, "This stuff just doesn't quite feel right", or "This stuff makes me feel odd".. the sensible thing to do is formulate using a tobacco that gets better responses as far as how it feels. Instead of looking for variety for variety's sake, the goal should be a consistent and effective product.

Going forward, I think the direction things may take will involve some expensive testing. Finding reliably available and consistent raw material (tobacco) that not only produces a positive subjective response from customers, but also raw material that is demonstrably low in TSNA content. The expense is in the research and testing involved in identifying and securing such raw material, but the payoff to this expense is obvious. I'm not giving away any secrets here; it's pretty obvious to me that any producer should realize this as a desirable goal.

Our product would then be called "Virginia flue-cured WTA" as we have sourced and indeed settled upon a tobacco that is reportedly low in TSNAs, gets a generally good subjective response from customers, and is available (at least so far) in the rather large quantities required.

There is a seasonal availability issue that may present difficulties in the future, however, especially as sales increase...we've even discussed the possibility of a roof-top tobacco greenhouse with our building manager...lol. That would be awesome, but obviously a challenging endeavor. We shall see...

 

[SouthernBliss]

Drying it properly might me more of a PIA than growing it.