Colorado man sues after explosion

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sailorman

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All of these standards should make the Obama administration happy. ISO compliance, ASTM, ASQC, UL, SAE, SME, initially providing voluntary recommendations and guidance are now used by the Washington political machine to just drive up costs.
No manufacturer, or small business reseller will intentionally produce and distribute a known bad product just to increase profit margins. Trim the waste and industry will prosper.
Maybe after the election we can get back to letting manufacturers just "do the right thing" without all of these costly bureaucratic controls and government sponsored (with my tax dollars) "standards".

That's got to be about the most naive sentiment I've ever read. Manufacturers have a long history of intentionally producing a known bad product to increase profit margins. BP, both the oil company and Pharma, the Ford Pinto and any number of cigarette manufacturers come to mind without thinking very hard. Every day, manufacturers do cost/benefit analyses. They know how much an average lawsuit will cost and how many lawsuits are likely to result from a given decision. They know how much bad PR will cost. They know the cost of mitigating bad PR with PR campaigns of their own. They have legions of bean counters to crunch numbers to decide whether cutting this corner or that corner will be profitable after deducting the costs of the lawsuits that they know full well will ensue should they cut such corners.

Some manufacturers, particularly small ones, will attempt to do the right thing. Others, will not and that is not demonization, it's history. As a corporation gets larger and becomes insulated against the financial consequences of killing people, they become more willing to sacrifice lives for another point or two on next quarters profit statement. We have already tried this business of self-regulation. Unfortunately, it doesn't work nearly often enough to be relied upon, as clearly proven in the space heater, auto, oil, chemical and coal industries, just to name a few. Don't you remember the fight the auto industry put up over mandatory seat belts? Ignition locks? Air bags? How many more people would be dead today if the auto industry had had its way regarding seat belts?

The vast majority of the regulations imposed on industry were imposed in reaction to industry's demonstrated inability, or unwillingness, to regulate itself, and they were imposed only after numerous cases of deaths and injuries by defective and dangerous products. Only the most inherently dangerous industries, i.e. nuclear power, aviation, etc., were regulated on a preemptory basis, because the consequences of cutting corners are so catastrophic. If manufacturers had not repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to cut corners without regard to safety, there would be no need to force them to and cases of deaths and injuries wouldn't have dropped after standards were imposed. Thousands of government inspectors could just sit around in their offices all day in the knowledge that there was nothing for them to do. That's not the case, nor has it ever been the case. The incidences of consumers being killed and disfigured by defective and dangerous products have plummeted drastically since manufacturing standards have been enforced. That fact alone is proof that they are necessary and serve a purpose and that, before they were mandatory, manufacturers didn't adhere to them in any consistent manner. The ones that did, faced unfair competition from the ones that didn't. By imposing safety standards on industry, a level playing field is created and a company can't so easily sacrifice human life for a short term advantage in the marketplace.
 

Foggy

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The sad fact is that we could put all kinds of info in the BOX or tube ( and we do ) and people will NOT read it !!! I get questions all the time that are very clearly stated on the manual !!!! right UP FRONT .

Many People just do NOT read directions.

You need to attach it to the product in a way that it can't be used without the consumer dealing with the warning tag. For example, a cable tie through a vent hole with a warning tag attached.
 

sailorman

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I used to work for the post office, so I have to ask, has anyone ever visited a USPS sorting facility??? You need to know how your packages are being handled, they get dropped, they get tossed thru the air and thrown around ALL the Time! It has always bothered me that L ions get shipped with some bubble wrap and in a bubble envelope and chances are they could get run over by a tow motor at a sorting plant. No one has time at the PO to handle your package on a velvet pillow to the next person so know that all packages are not handled well because of the shear volume the PO handles every day. Expect it to get kicked and dropped many times before it reaches you. My suggestion, when shipping L ions, ALWAYS wrap in bubble wrap and ship in cardboard boxes. Also tape the ends of all boxes incase they ever do get crushed so the batts do not fall out. I do alot of shipping, not ecig related, just know that your shipped package will get knocked around, plan on it and do what you can for safe shipping. Vendors need to know this. bnrk

I never worked for the P.O, but I was a package sorter at UPS in the late 70's. I also ship stuff in my business, fortunately nothing as sensitive as batteries, but knowing what I know, I will NEVER ship UPS. Nor will I accept a UPS shipment, unless there is absolutely no alternative. I have seen and (not proud to admit it) participated in the handling of packages that would make your hair stand on end. All this leads me to believe that li-ions, and especially LiPos, MUST be more rugged than we think. Otherwise, there is no way that the P.O. or UPS wouldn't have a dozen explosions every day and they'd be banned from even being shipped. It's a miracle to me that so many lithium batteries are shipped without constantly hearing about incidences of venting or exploding.
 

LordDavon

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You know what amazes me, the price tag they paid to buy Blu, wow my jaw dropped, how many ecig does Blu sell??? bnrk

It is a decent price, for a company with deep pockets, like Lorillard. Blu is actually very popular. They have a good online presence, and are gaining a pretty big retail presence. At least here in Florida, I can't go into a Walgreens, or many other stores, without seeing the $7 single blue setup on a shelf. They have an attractive little package, which I hate to admit, got me. It was my first e-cig. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for the poor quality, I wouldn't have found ECF. Now, that was a year-and-a-half ago, but you now have a whole new reason to hate Blu... they are the reason for me! :evil:
 

bnrkwest

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I never worked for the P.O, but I was a package sorter at UPS in the late 70's. I also ship stuff in my business, fortunately nothing as sensitive as batteries, but knowing what I know, I will NEVER ship UPS. Nor will I accept a UPS shipment, unless there is absolutely no alternative. I have seen and (not proud to admit it) participated in the handling of packages that would make your hair stand on end. All this leads me to believe that li-ions, and especially LiPos, MUST be more rugged than we think. Otherwise, there is no way that the P.O. or UPS wouldn't have a dozen explosions every day and they'd be banned from even being shipped. It's a miracle to me that so many lithium batteries are shipped without constantly hearing about incidences of venting or exploding.

I hear you :) I think all shipping facilities must be the same. I worked at the PO when the white powder scare happened, we worked in masks and rubber gloves, it was a scarey time. We became more aware of what we were handling, but packages get mishandled all the time. bnrk
 

Foggy

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It is a decent price, for a company with deep pockets, like Lorillard. Blu is actually very popular. They have a good online presence, and are gaining a pretty big retail presence.

I was pretty shocked to see their products today at a local gas station. I live in the sticks of Wisconsin.
 

DC2

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You need to attach it to the product in a way that it can't be used without the consumer dealing with the warning tag. For example, a cable tie through a vent hole with a warning tag attached.
Exactly.

As I've posted previously, I do not read warnings, and never will.
I have learned over the course of my life that 99.9% of them are for .......

This is different, and needs to be handled differently.
These warnings are serious, and need to be read, unlike most idiotic warnings.
 

sailorman

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It is a decent price, for a company with deep pockets, like Lorillard. Blu is actually very popular. They have a good online presence, and are gaining a pretty big retail presence. At least here in Florida, I can't go into a Walgreens, or many other stores, without seeing the $7 single blue setup on a shelf. They have an attractive little package, which I hate to admit, got me. It was my first e-cig. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for the poor quality, I wouldn't have found ECF. Now, that was a year-and-a-half ago, but you now have a whole new reason to hate Blu... they are the reason for me! :evil:

From what I understand, Blu is the largest single e-cig company in the world, in terms of units sold. I wonder what impact it would have had on the general acceptance of e-cigs if they made a good product. Conversely, I have to wonder how many people Blu turned off to e-cigs and sent back to analogs. I guess it's a win/win for Lorillard either way. I can't tell you how many people have told me e-cigs were basically a scam and when questioned further about why they feel that way said they tried Blu.

It's too bad. If Blu made as good a product as say...Volt or Bloog, there would probably be many thousands more vapers right now.
 

sailorman

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Exactly.

As I've posted previously, I do not read warnings, and never will.
I have learned over the course of my life that 99.9% of them are for .......

This is different, and needs to be handled differently.
These warnings are serious, and need to be read, unlike most idiotic warnings.

Yep and someone else who knows that 99.9% of warnings are for ...... will rip that tag off without reading it, because they're smarter than everyone else and they don't need to read idiotic warnings. And there you go.
 

Rocketman

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sailorman,
I agree with your reply to my sarcastic comment about industry standards. I've belonged to most of the organizations I listed so I know how industry chaired Quality Assurance works and how you end up with a wide range of inputs from members.

Voluntary guidance doesn't have the same bite as a government regulation. It's a shame they can't operate a little more efficiently but without most of the protections that have been made into law we would be about as safe as those in third world countries.

ECF is sticking their nose into MOD/APV safety, and not without objection from those that want to continue 'business as usual'. Getting voluntary guidelines in place industry wide without active participation of the major players on board seems to be a rocky road. Once these have become general practice you can bet it won't be long before 'regulation' is tacked on to the cover page.

and for the Weights and Measures reply, I've done many nights in front of a 75kg Troemner balance :)
 
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sailorman

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If they're smart, and I know they are, expect that they will starting right about now.

I don't know. What do they really have to gain. Blu already outsells all the other e-cigs. I suspect they'll be making a Newport version of Blu and they'll sell it right next to the Blu. The people who like menthol cigarettes, and Newports, will buy the Newport brand. The people who hate BT will buy the Blu, never knowing or suspecting that they're the same company.
 

sailorman

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sailorman,
I agree with your reply to my sarcastic comment about industry standards. I've belonged to most of the organizations I listed so I know how industry chaired Quality Assurance works and how you end up with a wide range of inputs from members.

Voluntary guidance doesn't have the same bite as a government regulation. It's a shame they can't operate a little more efficiently but without most of the protections that have been made into law we would be about as safe as those in third world countries.

ECF is sticking their nose into MOD/APV safety, and not without objection from those that want to continue 'business as usual'. Getting voluntary guidelines in place industry wide without active participation of the major players on board seems to be a rocky road. Once these have become general practice you can bet it won't be long before 'regulation' is tacked on to the cover page.

I agree. It's a shame that eventually, no matter the industry, Wall Street pressures and the quest for the bottom line eliminates the chance that industries will adopt sensible standards without being bludgeoned by the government. In Libertarian utopia, they would. In real life, it never happens that way.

The e-cig industry is young enough, and the governmental threat looms large enough, that there might be a chance that manufacturers will voluntarily adopt standards. The problem is that cheaters will always find a way to gain competitive advantage by their cheating. So, in the end, regulation is the only way to ensure that doesn't happen.

I think the biggest objection to ECF sticking their nose into it is that nobody really knows what the ECF standards are based on. Unfortunately, Roly has had to tackle this virtually by himself. I've seen no evidence of lab testing, rigorous scientific testing, input from other experts or anything that would compel a manufacturer, especially a large one, to take these standards seriously. Meeting them would cost some larger companies a considerable amount of money for retooling and redesign, etc. I just can't see them going along with that since they have, voluntarily or otherwise, had no input into the process that resulted in these standards.

I don't know that their objections are based so much as a desire for "business as usual" as on the fact that they see no compelling evidence there is a significantly real problem or a significant background to the ECF standards. Heck, you can't even get these guys to include a well written and comprehensive instruction manual in their kits. That alone would probably be nearly as effective in preventing accidents as a bunch of redundant slots. I have had 6 different e-cigs and mods. The only one that came with even a rudimentary manual was a PCC, and it was rudimentary indeed. I do read manuals for things with which I'm not already very familiar. I think most people do. Personally, it's one of the things I like best about getting any new gadget and helps prolong that feeling of giddy anticipation when you open a new toy.

BTW, sorry I didn't recognize your post as sarcastic. I've seen that exact same sentiment so many times here and elsewhere that I had no reason to suspect it wasn't sincere. Incredibly naive and historically ignorant, but sincere.
 
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DC2

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Yep and someone else who knows that 99.9% of warnings are for ...... will rip that tag off without reading it, because they're smarter than everyone else and they don't need to read idiotic warnings. And there you go.
So what is your solution?

If you think I am in the minority in not reading warnings, I believe you are mistaken.
In fact, who in the heck even reads product manuals these days?

The warnings need to be front and center in this case, and as unavoidable as possible.
Do you not agree?
 

DC2

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I don't know. What do they really have to gain. Blu already outsells all the other e-cigs. I suspect they'll be making a Newport version of Blu and they'll sell it right next to the Blu. The people who like menthol cigarettes, and Newports, will buy the Newport brand. The people who hate BT will buy the Blu, never knowing or suspecting that they're the same company.
My response can be entirely summed up by the posts by Kristin on this thread...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/290817-lorillard-purchases-blu-e-cigs.html

You could start with post #24 on that thread.

I agree with everything she said.
Which I guess makes that my response to your speculation.
:)
 

DC2

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I do read manuals for things with which I'm not already very familiar. I think most people do.
I'd be willing to bet you a zillion dollars that most people do not.
:)


EDITED TO ADD...

Not only that, but I suspect that even the ones that do...
--A good percentage don't believe the warnings are anything but cover-your-... garbage
--A large percentage will forget what the warnings said regardless
 
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BuGlen

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This is nothing like the hot coffee case. The hot coffee case was so grotesquely misrepresented in the media that it should be a crime. Anyone familiar with that case would never ridicule it as frivolous. And no one who has learned the real story behind it comes away thinking that it was anything but a travesty of justice perpetrated on the plaintiff.

I'm not going to go into all the details here, but that otherwise vigorous and healthy woman sustained extremely severe burns, multiple skin grafts and 8 months of hospitalization. Plus, unlike the criminal media reports, she was in the passenger seat of a parked car when the lid came off. Also, she only sued for the medical bills not paid by Medicare and a re-design of the cup lid. McDonalds knew full well that their holding temperature could inflict serious injuries. They had had over 700 complaints of people getting burned by coffee that, at 190 degrees, any doctor will attest was capable of inflicting severe 3rd degree burns. Ultimately, the jury, who knew ALL the facts, awarded her much more, but the award amount was drastically reduced on appeal and she only ended up being able to pay her medical costs and little more. BTW, she never fully recovered and died only a year or so after her ordeal. Somehow, these details never made it into the corporate media.

I suggest anyone laboring under the delusion that that case was in any way frivolous, see the HBO documentary called "Hot Coffee". See the pictures of that woman's injuries. Then, think about the ways your own Constitutional rights to redress in court have been short-circuited and denied by laws pushed by the Chamber of Commerce and big corporate interests under the guise of "tort reform".

This Colorado vaper's case may well be without merit. My first impression is that it was his own fault. But judges figure that out soon enough and 99.9% of the time, frivolous cases never see the inside of a courtroom. But even if the case had merit, if he lived in one of the 26 states that have instituted "tort reform", his award would be limited to 250k or less, regardless of what any jury decided was appropriate. Tort-reform, contrary to public opinion, does not only apply to frivolous lawsuits. It applies to ALL civil suits, regardless of the negligence involved or the damages sustained. If a victim of negligence ends up in a taxpayer funded nursing home, or on Medicaid because their $250K runs out, who pays the bill? The negligent party? No. We do. In effect, we subsidize the negligence of manufacturers when they injure a consumer.

When I posted that it was reactionary and somewhat political, and I fully regret doing so. Like some of the others in this thread, I was more worried about my new found joy of vaping rather than the well-being of the victim and their family and friends. I have since realized the error of my ways and started a Vape Responsibly campaign (see my sig) in the hopes of helping to educate others so they don't meet the same fate as the subject of this thread.

Please forgive my rash judgment.
 
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