Colorado man sues after explosion

[markfm]

Hifi, 6V, 3 ohm: 6V x 6V /3 ohms = 12W. 3.6V, 1.5 ohm: 3.6 x 3.6 / 1.5 = 8.6, about 2/3 the power of the 6V configuration, so I'm not sure how that runs hotter.

(I totally agree that the physics is real, but 12W is greater power than 8.6W, objectively.)

 

[Zapp and Roger]

^^^

What hifistud said. And the last line really summed it up best. It is like focusing on only the 2 in 2+2=4. It's only a part of the ultimate goal which is the heat produced. This has been my feeling for a long time as well. Summed up well sir.

 

[bnrkwest]

It addition to educating folks about battery safety how about power safety. Stacking 2 small cells to get 6 or 7 volts then slapping a low resistance atty or carto on it is 'pushing the envelope' even for 'good' cells and downright dangerous for less than good cells. Some 16340, RCR123A cells may have a high enough C rating to theoretically handle the current but stacked battery, LR vaping puts you 'outside the bell curve' for battery reliability.

Driving your APV hard may be exciting,but expect lower reliability

I totally agree! The safety thing is a whole package, batteries, charger, PV unit used, attys/cartos. Alot needs to be known for sure. bnrk

 

[bnrkwest]

Manuals and link to battery info is available in PS web site, but ya need to know where to look....

The Prodigy V3.1

Ok thanks for the link. I see no warning about not using non rechargeables, also they say to use unprotected Tenergy RCR123. I think for mod sellers this is a mistake, they should only recommend protected or safer chemistry batteries. We have to drive this home somehow. bnrk

 

[kwalka]

Well, obviously yes, I think you are in the minority.
And I'm still willing to bet a zillion dollars.


And I will add that I think you guys are freaks of nature.

In the spirit of keeping on topic of this thread:
Guilty as charged!

I guess that means my wife and I are raising 4 honor roll freaks of nature. Well, at least 3 and 1 strong prospect.

 

[JD4x4]

Ok thanks for the link. I see no warning about not using non rechargeables, also they say to use unprotected Tenergy RCR123. I think for mod sellers this is a mistake, they should only recommend protected or safer chemistry batteries. We have to drive this home somehow. bnrk

"Protected" and/or "safe" chemistry batteries are horribly misleading terms, imo. In the 3 short months I have been trying to understand Li batteries, this is one thing I have learned. Read the Battery University topics at least once, more until you find out the answer to exactly why a Li battery goes into runaway. Hint- "thermal runaway", ie. heat.

Exceeding C-ratings during discharge, overvoltage and/or no cutoff during charge, internal and external damage or defect, and excessive heat from any of the aforementioned or from environment are the things which lead to Li battery failure catastrophic or otherwise. At least that's what I take away from what I've read.

Rocketman's post seems spot-on to me with regard to people needing to know that power (discharge)=heat. More discharge= more heat. Enough heat in a short enough time=thermal battery runaway. Some batteries can handle a lot of power over a short period of time, while others can't. That's the essence of the C-rating (mostly, as I understand it). This is true with "safe" batteries as well as damaged "protected" (from static electricity or otherwise) battery circuits.

If you're recommending only "protected" batteries.. tell us how we determine if the protection is actually working. Only ways I can think of are if the battery continues to produce current past it's C-rating, continues output when too hot, or accepts a charge voltage greater than allowed.

 

[Horseman9]

safer chemistry batteries. We have to drive this home somehow. bnrk

+1
There is no such thing as a 'safe' battery. After all, they are energy sinks/reservoirs. Education is the key here, to minimize risks & encourage proper use/handling. Just like our schools, there is no guarantee that this will take with certain persons. I think we, as vapers, need to educate people around us whenever possible - to both the risks & benefits.

 

[JD4x4]

6v / 3 ohms = 2 amps, 3.6v / 1.5 ohms = 2.4 amps

 

[bnrkwest]

"Protected" and/or "safe" chemistry batteries are horribly misleading terms, imo. In the 3 short months I have been trying to understand Li batteries, this is one thing I have learned. Read the Battery University topics at least once, more until you find out the answer to exactly why a Li battery goes into runaway. Hint- "thermal runaway", ie. heat.

Exceeding C-ratings during discharge, overvoltage and/or no cutoff during charge, internal and external damage or defect, and excessive heat from any of the aforementioned or from environment are the things which lead to Li battery failure catastrophic or otherwise. At least that's what I take away from what I've read.

Rocketman's post seems spot-on to me with regard to people needing to know that power (discharge)=heat. More discharge= more heat. Enough heat in a short enough time=thermal battery runaway. Some batteries can handle a lot of power over a short period of time, while others can't. That's the essence of the C-rating (mostly, as I understand it). This is true with "safe" batteries as well as damaged "protected" (from static electricity or otherwise) battery circuits.

If you're recommending only "protected" batteries.. tell us how we determine if the protection is actually working. Only ways I can think of are if the battery continues to produce current past it's C-rating, continues output when too hot, or accepts a charge voltage greater than allowed.

I totally agree, there is alot to learn, the starting point is use protected and safer chemistry batteries, then learn all you can about them. Most all agree AW is the best, next thing is find vendors that sell directly from AW, not knock offs/conterfeits. Checking the batteries off the charger is another point that should be done. Also using APV's that have their own protection built in is good, I have one that checks the battery too, another good thing. Also know what ohm atty and carto is recommended for that unit. I use two tube APV styles and yes I went and read what ohm cartos are recommended for both, I only use what is recommended, something everyone needs to do.
Then there is charger safety, only use charger for that battery, charge in a battery bag or in a metal cake pan or on a concrete or tile floor etc. Don't over charge, if charger and batteries get hot unplug take batts out of not too hot to touch. Never charge over night, never leave unattended etc. So there is alot to know and do right for sure.

The starting point is never use non rechargeable lithium batteries, this will stop some of the major explosions we hear of. DO USE protected or safer chemistry batteries. But alot to learn after that! bnrk

 

[bnrkwest]

+1
There is no such thing as a 'safe' battery. After all, they are energy sinks/reservoirs. Education is the key here, to minimize risks & encourage proper use/handling. Just like our schools, there is no guarantee that this will take with certain persons. I think we, as vapers, need to educate people around us whenever possible - to both the risks & benefits.

Totally agree, no battery is safe, but some are "safer". The non rechargeable lithium are totally unsafe and were never to be used in a APV, but people still do not know that. Scarey! bnrk

 

[Horseman9]

Totally agree, no battery is safe, but some are "safer".

My point exactly - but how many people outside this forum/community know this? RatShack salespeople obviously dont. If we dont educate as we vape, too many people will make up their minds APV=bomb & close their minds. I never stealth vape anymore, since I try to get reactions so I can educate. I do ask permission in stores, etc - since that also usually gets questions for another lesson, & 90% of the time I get the OK. The more proper information out there, the better we have the chance to self-regulate, rather than having Big Brother do it for us.

 

[buGG]

Hifi, 6V, 3 ohm: 6V x 6V /3 ohms = 12W. 3.6V, 1.5 ohm: 3.6 x 3.6 / 1.5 = 8.6, about 2/3 the power of the 6V configuration, so I'm not sure how that runs hotter.

(I totally agree that the physics is real, but 12W is greater power than 8.6W, objectively.)

agreed. it's not the same. the benefit though is with the bigger batteries that don't drop so much under load. you can pull close to 4V under load with ann 18650 and even right above 4V with bigger batts and LR attys. that would give you just a touch over 10watts, and realistically, provided the user is stacking 16340s or smaller, the voltage under load is closer to 5.5V, which would also be about 10W with a 3Ω atty. so i see where hifi is coming from, but regardless of where in the world high heat vaping is more popular, there are a lot of users on this forum and elsewhere talking about 15, 20watt and higher setups....

Ok thanks for the link. I see no warning about not using non rechargeables, also they say to use unprotected Tenergy RCR123. I think for mod sellers this is a mistake, they should only recommend protected or safer chemistry batteries. We have to drive this home somehow. bnrk

they do, those are LiFePO4, "safer" chemistry batteries. problem is, the manufacturer doesn't recommend those batteries for the load/ amperage drain that any atomizer will put on it.

and in their terms they've always advised against using non-rechargeable batteries. this goes back a long way, it's not a recent addition...though arguably it's not in a clearly defined, in your face, location for prospective buyers to see. nonetheless it's there, but in this instance the user didn't have the internet and the whole device and "proper" batteries and charger were bought by a friend. still without the internet, the user gets a recommendation for "similar" batteries from a salesperson at radio shack.

6v / 3 ohms = 2 amps, 3.6v / 1.5 ohms = 2.4 amps

yes the amperage is very useful, since it's directly related to the discharge capacity and overall performance/ consistency/ life of the battery. something a lot of users aren't taking into account, for lack of clear info. from the battery manufacturers and the vendors as well, when they stack batteries of unknown or inferior capability or even use certain single cell applications with a low resistance atomizer.

 

[LordDavon]

Hifi, 6V, 3 ohm: 6V x 6V /3 ohms = 12W. 3.6V, 1.5 ohm: 3.6 x 3.6 / 1.5 = 8.6, about 2/3 the power of the 6V configuration, so I'm not sure how that runs hotter.

(I totally agree that the physics is real, but 12W is greater power than 8.6W, objectively.)

Don't higher ohm items have a larger coil mass? It should take a larger amount of time to get the coil to full heat, rather than a smaller coil. At least, that is what it seems when I dry burn. Plus, larger coil means it is usually heating a larger amount of juice, which would keep it at a lower temp.

I am just speculating, of course.

 

[markfm]

Standard "1.5 ohm" is a dual coil made up of two 3 ohm in parallel, more mass and surface area than a single 3 ohm, typically. I don't recall talk about a single coil 1.5, although I don't doubt that some of the roll your own atty people can craft low ohm.

(really not looking to divert, I was just providing a comment that 8.6w of power is less than 12w)

 

[hifistud]

Hifi, 6V, 3 ohm: 6V x 6V /3 ohms = 12W. 3.6V, 1.5 ohm: 3.6 x 3.6 / 1.5 = 8.6, about 2/3 the power of the 6V configuration, so I'm not sure how that runs hotter.

(I totally agree that the physics is real, but 12W is greater power than 8.6W, objectively.)

mea culpa - typo... 6 should have been 5.... 8.6 watts on the 3.6 setup and 8.33watts on the 5v...

 

[markfm]

That makes sense

 

[Thundercats]

Buzz pro in the mail to buzzkill. Hopefully we get some test results next week.

 

[markfm]

Good stuff

 

[Bovinia]

Thank you Thundercats! This will provide valuable information on the tube integrity

 

[bnrkwest]

Buzz pro in the mail to buzzkill. Hopefully we get some test results next week.

Thank you Thundercats for helping us all learn from your experience. The more we know of what can happen, the safer we can all be vaping! Thanks again! bnrk