Could vaping POSSIBLY be worse?

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IntelligentDesigner

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So, if the real fight is about money, what grounds could the FDA have to stand on when trying to ban vaping products? I don't think there is any legal standpoint they have to make it illegal based on not making their money. So they spend millions or billions of our tax dollars on research that, in the short-term, is producing little to no results to show that vaporizing products are harmful to our health. Why not tax it, make their money, and let us do our thing and publicly declare what thousands of people who actually vape say: that PVs are an effective smoking cessation device? Sure, the tax probably wouldn't generate the trillions of dollars tobacco does in all its related income brackets, but we'd save trillions elsewhere.
 

Edd Harbin

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Again , didn't say smoking doesn't add to the chance of getting cancer . You are reading into my statement's . I can prove "emperically" that the crime rate in a city goes up as the number of churches increase . By leaving out data you can say that the churches cause crime . Same goes for "causeing " cancer . It is a number of factors , most of them are added to tobbaco , yet the government AND the studies all lump everything together . Nic is no worse than caffine but they won't be compared together because people are ok with caffine . That is why e-cigs are being lumped together , that and the fact that Obama care and big insurance want to charge more fore smokers .
 

RVLT

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And the statement that 4 out of 5 deaths from lung cancer as caused by smoking is one of those fixed stats . They include a death if the person was ever anywhere near a smoker for longer than a day . That proves very little . Actual smokers don't make up 4 out of 5 deaths .

They also include deaths up to the age of 69 as "middle age" smoking related deaths. Most of the numbers and "facts" are exaggerated.
If they do include someone who has been around a smoker for longer than a day then I expext that number would be 5 out of 5 deaths from lung cancer caused by smoking. Who hasnt been around a smoker. Every 7 out of 10 people I know are smokers.
 

Tanti

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Google cigarette generated income world wide and be shocked. 70+ billion a year just in the USA plus 190+ billion a year in medical treatment related to the use of cigarettes. You don't think they want to protect that in any way they can? Globally the revenue generated is higher than most countries GDP.

Of course they aren't as bad it's not difficult to know that if you continue using a handful of chemicals instead of thousands and stop burning them causing by products to form it is safer. This isn't a battle for our well being it's a battle to recover losses to the single largest tax cash cow the government has. I wonder if the general public knows or cares what happens to us smokers and ex smokers.

The part that makes me sick is turning on the TV and seeing all the pharmaceutical drugs the FDA allows that have side effects including death, suicide, etc. Also how many get recalled every year which suggests their clinical trials obviously weren't thorough enough. It is all about money there is no way to argue differently.

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I agree as far as the cash cow, taxes or loosing taxes. When it comes to drugs, clinical test are done by the manufacture on their dime, they show results to FDA, FDA may choose to do some of its own trials of its own but for the most part they go with the tests done by the manufacture, FDA can send the drug back into testing also not passing it. It can be years and years spent in test starting with animals moving on to the final stage of people. Depending on the drug there are exceptable limits of side effects, and rare effects. Its done with % of people that get them. side effect or benifical out come. This is weight out. The clinical tests are anywhere from a few thousand people to a few hundred. Really the real test is when its put to market and the masses start taking the drug.
No drug is known 100% when it comes to market. The time it would take to do a long term (20-30-40 years) would just be to long. Alot of these drugs are need now not 20-30 years from now. Important drugs like for AIDS went threw a fast track because of the pressure to have something to treat with, drugs like the smoke cessation drugs have maybe a 5 years at most. The exceptable side effects are noted and the drs weight out the good virsus bad for the patient. There are some drugs that shouldnt be used for things that they have been used for, most drugs are assigned a purpose to help with x thing and cant be used for anything else unless the tests are done again for that thing. Some drugs have crossover multiple things of what they work on. I feel its as much the drs responsiblity to realize who should be taking these drugs but now days drs only see patients for less than 15 min on average and the dr dont always get it right.

Every drug has side effects, rare side effects and allergy cautions, even aspirin. There are thousands and thousands of useful and helpful drugs on the market, can all take these drugs, no. Ive seen people take their drugs wrong, mix drugs up in bottles, take over the counter drugs wrong, so its the consumers responsiblity to be informed also. I cringe every time I see someone tip a bottle of cough med to their mouth and take a drink. Its also up to the consumer to inform their dr everything they need to, I have found its like pulling teeth to get info out of people. Nobody can be treated properly unless they are up an up with the dr, or pharmacy. Its a fact people are living longer because we have advanced so much farther than we were 50 years ago.

So what im saying here its not all the FDA, it filters all the way down to the consumer. If we didnt have the FDA to over see what the drug companies are doing we would have alot more deaths, leaving it up to the drug companies cutting corners or doing what they want is a very bad thing.

So when it come to e-cigs with all the pressure from outside grps, the non-smoking, anti-smoking, quit or die grps, and then the BT and BD im really not sure how FDA will handle this. Knowing they have exceptable side effects % and if they see it as a true replacement it might be favorable for the e-cig industery. I would personally like to see them get it away from being classified as a tobacco, its not and I wish they would consede that nicotine is not harmful in small amounts by its self.
 

Jerms

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Again , didn't say smoking doesn't add to the chance of getting cancer . You are reading into my statement's . I can prove "emperically" that the crime rate in a city goes up as the number of churches increase . By leaving out data you can say that the churches cause crime . Same goes for "causeing " cancer . It is a number of factors , most of them are added to tobbaco , yet the government AND the studies all lump everything together . Nic is no worse than caffine but they won't be compared together because people are ok with caffine . That is why e-cigs are being lumped together , that and the fact that Obama care and big insurance want to charge more fore smokers .

You're right, you didn't say specifically that smoking doesn't increases the risk of cancer. Since you point that out I'm guessing you do agree that smoking does in fact cause cancer, if smokers do in fact have a higher rate of cancer.

On your other points we will have to agree to disagree, though I agree nicotine is only as harmful a drug as caffeine. That's why to me ecigs are harm reduction devices. I get to enjoy nicotine with without the added risks of cancer and other types of lung and heart disease. For myself and many others, losing the cigs was a pretty dramatic pro-health decision.

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Hulamoon

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Ah, there's the rub. Politicians want the tax money for their personal slush funds whichever way it comes - from cigaettes or anything that looks remotely like a cigarette. In Hawaii, the huge BT settlement that was meant to fund health and advertising campaigns against smoking......wanna know how much of that money went for those purposes in 2012? ZERO. NADA. ZIP.On the other hand BP wants to put a patent on nicotine and claim it for their own bank accounts. So now we have warring factions between BT, BP and grubby politicians' bank accounts.
 

Edd Harbin

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Look at the words used in your arguments . Cause means one thing makes anouther happen , period . The correct term should be influance . It makes a difference what words we use . Our coultures and societies are defined by language. When we use the wrong words , we dumb down the message . People begin to believe that Cancer is caused , and not influanced by ONE thing . Then it's ok to hate something . Happening here in the states , happened in germany awhile back .
 

Jerms

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Look at the words used in your arguments . Cause means one thing makes anouther happen , period . The correct term should be influance . It makes a difference what words we use . Our coultures and societies are defined by language. When we use the wrong words , we dumb down the message . People begin to believe that Cancer is caused , and not influanced by ONE thing . Then it's ok to hate something . Happening here in the states , happened in germany awhile back .

Compare cancer rates of smokers versus nonsmokers. The cancer rate of smokers is much higher, it's safe to assume smoking can cause cancer. Notice I say CAN cause cancer, not WILL cause cancer. 'Cause' is definately the right word. You're right, 'cause' means to 'make something happen'. It's correct to say that smoking can 'make cancer to happen'. But if you prefer the term influence, we'll agree that smoking influences cancer rates.

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Jerms

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Actually I change my mind. Influence isn't the right word. It's a known fact that introducing carcinogens into the system can cause cancer. In fact, a proper definition for carcinogen is "a substance that is an agent directly involved in causing cancer". Since cig smoke contain 70+ known carcinogens, it's directly involved in causing cancer.

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J.R. Bob Dobbs

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my father grew up in the "its healthy to smoke" era of living. He is now in his late 50's, eats semi healthy does not eat fast food..ever. Almost always cooks or eats at a non fast food restaurant. He, much like me is a meat and potatoes guy, but he eats his veggies like he should. He got throat cancer a few years back, this was his second problem with cancer. He is now in full remission and continues to smoke. Every time i talk to him i try to get him to switch to a PV of some kind. But he is free to make his own choices.

smoking will kill most people who smoke, that much is a fact. It's not likely as bad as the media or others make it out to be but it is bad. Vaping has been around for about 7 years now, every year it becomes more and more popular and more and more people become healthier through tobacco harm reduction.

if you want a funny side effect, read the side effects of penicillin. A Black hairy tongue is one of the possible side effects...yeah you get the flu or some other infection and you could end up with a tongue that you need to shave...imagine that.
 

DietSalem

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Something I always do my best to mention is that yes, vaping COULD be worse. For all we know we're all getting some strange brain cancer from it. But, for all we know we're all getting that same cancer (or one like it) from eating vegetables. Right now it's unknown. We have no idea, but we've got no reason to suspect it either. We all FEEL healthier than we did when we smoked. Vaping is a lot like God, for me. There's no evidence to suggest that vaping is worse for us, but anything is possible.

The example I used recently was I compared it to a flash game called Pandemic. In this flash game you control a pathogen and upgrade it to make it more deadly. There's a real cheap way to do it, where you don't upgrade any symptoms until you've infected everyone - then you mass symptoms to kill everyone before a cure can be made. I said "Honestly, that could be what's happening with vaping". But just because the word could is there doesn't mean it is. I'm just saying - Anything is possible.
 

Edd Harbin

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Te majority of people wha smoke do not die from cancer . That would be 50% of all smokers and that just is not the case . Carcinogens MAY cause cancer , not will cause . Genetics is the biggest player in cancers . Also what is the interplay of other factors ? I'm not saying that smoking is not dangerous , but almost everthing that we enjoy is potentialy dangerous . Vaping is a step down on the danger scale , how much we don't know . Don't be a sheeple and accept the numbers we get from big pharm, big gov or anybody else . Look at where the numbers come from and how they use them . sixty nine years old is not middle aged and yet they are included in middle age deaths from "smoking" .... Scewed numbers , you bet !
 

Jerms

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my father grew up in the "its healthy to smoke" era of living. He is now in his late 50's, eats semi healthy does not eat fast food..ever. Almost always cooks or eats at a non fast food restaurant. He, much like me is a meat and potatoes guy, but he eats his veggies like he should. He got throat cancer a few years back, this was his second problem with cancer. He is now in full remission and continues to smoke. Every time i talk to him i try to get him to switch to a PV of some kind. But he is free to make his own choices.

smoking will kill most people who smoke, that much is a fact. It's not likely as bad as the media or others make it out to be but it is bad. Vaping has been around for about 7 years now, every year it becomes more and more popular and more and more people become healthier through tobacco harm reduction.

if you want a funny side effect, read the side effects of penicillin. A Black hairy tongue is one of the possible side effects...yeah you get the flu or some other infection and you could end up with a tongue that you need to shave...imagine that.

Seems pretty common when people start to adapt to a healthy lifestyle the cigs are last to go, even if consequences have been big, like with your father. Good luck getting him to try vaping, I'm sure with you being an example of someone who vapes and enjoys it it only helps. Though like you said, in the end the choice is his.

I believe it's a basic freedom that we may make high-risk decisions as long as we are risking only ourselves. But we deserve to be informed of the consequences of that decision. That's my problem with BT, is they hid what they knew to be very dangerous with lies and mis-information. And now with BP, they know their nicotine replacement therapies like the patch and gum are greatly unsuccessful for helping people quit smoking, but they make big money off that and use lies and mis-information about e-cigs since it dangers their bottom line. A huge example of the root of evil being man's lust for money.

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Edd Harbin

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If you ever thought that smoking wasn't bad for you then you were just ignorant . People are happy to be sheeple and just belive what they are told . Most of the things we realy like are in the very least not good for you i.e. steak , icecream, tobacco . I understand that I put bad things into my body , and don't expect to hear the truth from the Government or the manufacturer . Common sense anda little research goes a long way .
 

Jerms

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If you ever thought that smoking wasn't bad for you then you were just ignorant . People are happy to be sheeple and just belive what they are told . Most of the things we realy like are in the very least not good for you i.e. steak , icecream, tobacco . I understand that I put bad things into my body , and don't expect to hear the truth from the Government or the manufacturer . Common sense anda little research goes a long way .

Like most who commonly use the word "sheeple" to say almost everyone is more ignorant than them, I will find you easy to ignore from here out.

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DietSalem

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If you ever thought that smoking wasn't bad for you then you were just ignorant . People are happy to be sheeple and just belive what they are told . Most of the things we realy like are in the very least not good for you i.e. steak , icecream, tobacco . I understand that I put bad things into my body , and don't expect to hear the truth from the Government or the manufacturer . Common sense anda little research goes a long way .

I think you're a little too eager to slam the government. Must be those chem trails they're releasing in the air that's causing you to be paranoid, right?
 

Ken_A

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Let's not start attacking each other here, except in fun. The forums are for discussion, not slamming.
back on topic: vaping could not, IMO, be more dangerous than smoking. Just on the list of chemicals inhaled alone. The types of chemicals in MOST e-juice have already passed inspection by knowledgeable people. Including Nicotine. Any search for information on Nicotine will show that whenever it is removed from association with tobacco, it is not only relatively harmless, but actually beneficial to certain people. Please feel free to so the searches yourself, or go to the CAASA site where you can get information.
 

Edd Harbin

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Sheeple are people who just follow "common knowledge " not common sense . And I don't think most people are more ignorant than me , just the ones who show themselves to be . The government is what it is , most of the time it is in it for itself . Like anything else look at motivation first then at intention . Big gov/pharm/tobac are first and foremost looking out for themselves .
 

DietSalem

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Sheeple are people who just follow "common knowledge " not common sense . And I don't think most people are more ignorant than me , just the ones who show themselves to be . The government is what it is , most of the time it is in it for itself . Like anything else look at motivation first then at intention . Big gov/pharm/tobac are first and foremost looking out for themselves .

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