County wants to ban public e-cigarette smoking

[rothenbj]

Thad, I know what you're saying. I was listening live and throwing notes as I listened. If you stumble on the thread, you'll see where I had the same feeling as you. I can't remember his name, but he was very positive and made a lot of sense. After that there was another gentleman who got very negative after which the chair an vice chair each chimed in. That was five votes right there, so it only took one other member to vote with them.

I believe there may have been some "controversy" before the meeting, but I fear that it was a foregone conclusion before you ever spoke. Now if there would have been a few dozen people to speak on PVs thing may have been different, perhaps not. It sure looked like it hit the radar screen late which we may see more of.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Many/most local/state/federal legislative bodies and/or committees allow public officials (who aren't in attendance) to cast votes via proxy (i.e. by giving their vote to the leader of their respective political party). But the minutes of meeting should state the actual vote tally for all votes taken (including failed amendments).

It would be very helpful to know more details about any similar proposal in nearby Pierce County (please post if you find a weblink for the document and/or it process). Had we taken action on the King County proposal before late in the 11th hour, we probably could have defeated that proposal.

 

[cracker75]

My stupid little rant will be published in the Stranger's "SLOG".

I don't know what that means or how much it will get read, but it's something.

I also don't know when it will be posted, but you can find it at thestranger.com.

 

[Bill Godshall]

I just received the following letter from Julia Patterson, Chair of the King County Board of Health.

----- Original Message -----
From: Patterson, Julia
To: 'Bill Godshall'
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 5:55 PM
Subject: RE: BOH should reject proposed e-cigarette usage ban, correct inaccurate and misleading claims, ban sales to youth


Dear Mr. Godshall,

Thank you for your email regarding the recently adopted e-cigarette regulations. As Chair of the Board of Health, I carefully reviewed the proposal and am confident that the unanimous Board decision is in the best interest of the public.

The new regulations do not ban the adult use of e-cigarettes in King County. Instead, the regulations:

- restrict the sales of e-cigarettes or any other unapproved nicotine delivery devices only to people 18 and older;

- prohibit free or highly discounted electronic smoking devices or unapproved nicotine delivery products;

- prohibit the use of e-cigarette devices in places where smoking is prohibited by law.

I support efforts to discourage youth from using nicotine devices such as e-cigarettes. In a recent test in Spokane County, 28 of 31 attempts to purchase e-cigarettes by minors were successful. These devices are sold in convenience stores and mall kiosks and come in candy flavors, making them even more tempting for youth. The FDA has warned that e-cigarettes can increase nicotine addiction among young people and may lead youth to try conventional tobacco products. The new regulations ban the sale of these devices to youth under 18 in an attempt to discourage nicotine use.

The new regulations also prohibit the use of e-cigarette devices in places where smoking is prohibited by law. E-cigarettes are virtually indistinguishable from the use of traditional tobacco products in public, increasing the likelihood that people will break the law by lighting up cigarettes because they see what appears to be someone smoking. This results in more people being exposed to secondhand smoke, which the Surgeon General recently announced has immediate health impacts. Even brief exposure to secondhand smoke can cause cardiovascular disease and could trigger acute cardiac events, such as heart attack.

The Board of Health convened a Tobacco Policy committee in June 2010 to review the evidence and develop new tobacco policies that respond to current policy opportunities and disparities in King County. The recent e-cigarette regulations were endorsed by the committee members.

There are many unanswered questions about the safety of these unregulated, black market e-cigarette products. The Board of Health took a reasonable step to protect youth in King County while federal authorities continue to look into these products.

Thank you again for your email. Please feel free to contact me with additional questions regarding this or any other matter in King County.

Sincerely,

King County Councilmember Julia Patterson – District 5

 

[mauzey]

I just got the exact same exact message from Julia in response to my Testimony from last week.

Thanks,
Jeff~

P.S. I see she came up with the part about the "unregulated, black market e-cigarette products" what is that about?

 

[Crumpet]

Someone please tell her that there are tons of PVs with purple/green/blue lights on the end and that you would have to be a complete ..... not to know the difference! I don't have the energy right now.

 

[Placebo Effect]

I got the same e-mail as Bill in response to an e-mail I sent out that explicitly urged Patterson to vote YES on banning the sales to people under 18, and NO on restricting their use indoors.

I'm cordial 19 times out of 20, but here's #20.

Councilmember Patterson,

With all due respect, I'd rather have received no reply than a reply than a canned reply that insinuates that my original e-mail urged you to stop a ban on adult use of e-cigarettes in King County. When sending form e-mails in the future, please ask a staffmember to adapt the e-mail to the letter you're replying to. Otherwise, it's insulting.

Thank you

 

[kristin]

So, 28 of 31 attempts for minors to purchase e-cigarettes were successful. But, um, weren't they LEGAL to sell to minors until they passed the law? Additionally, how many REAL kids (not undercover plants) actually attempted to purchase them AT ALL?

Additionally, if people "will break the law by lighting up cigarettes because they see what appears to be someone smoking" what is stopping the staff from saying, "sorry, you can't smoke - only e-cigarettes are allowed?" If the smoker gets told right away, how much "second hand smoke" would there really be??

Good luck to them trying to enforce this. It'll be hard proving someone was vaping in a restaurant.

 

[esdel]

Gee, I must be so naive. I just got this same email reply from Patterson and actually thought it was written just for me!

 

[cracker75]

It's up!

Any comments would be appreciated!

The E-Cigarette Ban That Launched 1,000 Angry Words | Slog | The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper

 

[esdel]

It's up!

Any comments would be appreciated!

The E-Cigarette Ban That Launched 1,000 Angry Words | Slog | The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper

Well, my comment is: F'IN BRILLIANT LETTER!

 

[mauzey]

I replied with this:

Dear Councilmember Patterson,

I agree with and applaud you effort to keep e-cigs out of the hands of children, but I disagree that e-cigs have been marketed to children or that any vendor has targeted children as their audience. A few point though. My e-cig does not look like a regular cigarette, I personally do not appreciate the the fact that many vendors put little red lights on them and make them appear to be tobacco cigarettes. I also know that my e-cig does not produce smoke like a tobacco cigarette, the vapor produced does not smell or linger like a cigarette. I think the logic in the decision that you and board used is flawed, and simply an expression of your attempt to engineer social norms. I do not agree that my vaping would lead to a smoker thinking that it was OK to light up, if they were to, they should be dealt with accordingly. I do believe that smokers I have come into contact with have expressed interest in the e-cig and have gotten a little education to take away with them. I have done my research and I am always looking into the safety of the ingredients of the vapor juice that I use. I take offense when you imply that the only safe product is a regulated product, tobacco cigarettes are heavily regulated and they kill people in bunches. I also have to say these are not black market items I purchase, these are quality devices legally sold and purchased in the united states.

Your's and the boards decision was not made in the interest of the public health.

Respecfully,

 

[JonnyVapΣ]

I would like to know how these minors purchaced the devices. In another "news" story (and probably hundreds more) I read months ago, the "minor" was able to purchase a device online via credit card. Well that doesn't prove anything. Give a kid a credit card and they can purchase anything online. The point is that a minor shouldn't have unsupervised use of a credit card to begin with. Sure, 'no sales to minors' was recently passed to law but it's doubtful that the majority of convenience stores were blatantly selling kits to minors....much less in "candy flavors". The 'convenience store kit' is predominantly nJoy which has (poor) tobacco flavored carts and menthol flavored carts (nJoy does not offer any other flavorings). The predominant 'mall kiosk' kit is from "Smoke 51" who also only sells "tobacco" and menthol flavors. No additional flavors from either distributor, certainly not candy. More details as to how 28 of 31 attempts were successful needs to be known. Without these details this is just a bunch of BS.

 

[Petrodus]

King County BOH couldn't care less about letters and truth and common sense. Actually, from reading what the locals have to say on the SeattlePI page...Their entire government couldn't care less either. The locals are mad and still posting (the last comment was posted a couple of hours ago) and the number of pages of comments is now up to 9. Read Comments

PS: I would bet Pierce County tabled discussion on a similar ban
allowing time for the dust to settle from the King County circus

 

[mauzey]

Well, my comment is: F'IN BRILLIANT LETTER!

That was good stuff, if only I had that guys pen

 

[kristin]

More details as to how 28 of 31 attempts were successful needs to be known.

Keep in mind that at that time, selling e-cigarettes to minors, while unadvisable, was NOT illegal until the BOH passed this regulation - thanks to the FDA's refusal to classify e-cigarettes as tobacco products. SO, those vendors weren't doing anything illegal.

Besides, justifying not selling to minors is a smoke-screen. No one was questioning that part of the proposed regulation. all the kid talk is just a distraction from their attemot at regulating "social norms" and banning the indoor use of e-cigs based on that rather than any true risk to the public.

 

[JonnyVapΣ]

Legality aside that question is still an integrity buster. I could twist that BS by saying; "28 of 31 Fords break down within the first 3 years of ownership." simply because I don't like Fords. If I say it enough to the right audience, like other Ford haters, it (opinion) becomes fact within that group of like-minded individuals. All I have to do to back that claim is convolute the meaning of "break down" to make the numbers work. Could be something as simple as a worn out wiper blade.

Again, legality aside, if said "28 of 31 attempts..." were pure BS that puts to question the integrity of the rest of their statements. This is why I would want proof of what seems trivial to some.

Next subject on the block; "Candy flavor". If the two largest retail distributors don't even provide "candy flavor" to begin with then how would they be marketed to kids who seem to be able to purchase them at a 28 of 31 ratio?

It BS. It's lies. The numbers don't add up to back the claims.

 

[Luisa]

I sent this letter to Julia Patterson. I must say I plagiarized one quote from Dr. Siegal.

I must say I was astounded at your lack of information and the misinformation you disseminated concerning ecigarettes. A preponderance of the available evidence shows them to be much safer than tobacco cigarettes and comparable in toxicity to conventional replacement products--Pharma patches and gum. These are not black market products.

The FDA was sued by two ecigarette companies. The FDA lost the suit in District Court.appealed the case and then the FDA lost the Appeal. One Judge told the FDA thay had overreached again. The FDA was also told there was no evidence ecigarettes were harmful.

There has been considerable research conducted on ecigarettes and more research being conducted at the present time. None have shown harm to the ecig consumer or harm to those in the presence of the consumer. I would be more than happy to send you copies of the research that has been conducted. Many people in the anti-smoking movement feel strongly this product will save the lives of committed smokers if they will switch to ecigarettes.

We all want to ban the sale of these products to minors and support strong legislation banning sales to minors.

You would do the citizens in your area a great service if you would read the legitimate scientific evidence concerning ecigarettes and inform them of the positive benefits to ecigarette consumers and the safety of those in the presence of someone someone using an ecigarette.

Again,I would be very happy to send you research information on this product. Please let me know if you would like for me to mail the research papers so that you can better understand this product and its" potential to save so many lives.

 

[rothenbj]

It's up!

Any comments would be appreciated!

The E-Cigarette Ban That Launched 1,000 Angry Words | Slog | The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper

Would this be your work? If so, great job, it's brilliant.

 

[cracker75]

Would this be your work? If so, great job, it's brilliant.

Oh yeah. It was all mine.

And what Kristin said above is a big point the county overlooked, meaning how many minors bought something that they were allowed to buy is not relevant.

Statistics like that need to be valid and also comparative (x number of kids bought cigarettes and y number bought booze in the same county) or they have no meaning, just empty numbers.

That is truly one of the most worthless return-from-letters I've ever read.