Couple things to clear my mind

[vapdivrr]

I had read that nicotine is only addictive when smoked. That when it's used in experiments (without smoking), it's not addictive. So, it's the nic combined with whatever is in the smoke that makes it addictive.

ETA: Please, don't ask me for references. I might be able to find them. I might not.

I agree with this......yes when I smoked, it was addictive, but vaped, not so sure it really is.. .. now that i have been vaping fir 7 years, I think vaping nic is not all that bad. I have tried , quit a few times to stop vaping for days, and have done it easily even at 24mg nic....if I were to stop smoking like that, after a few hrs I would of been climbing trees. I literally have stopped vaping for 3 days, a few times and didn't miss it at all...

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[Rossum]

I literally have stopped vaping for 3 days, a few times and didn't miss it at all...

So why did you start vaping again?

People are different. If I'm put in a situation where I can't vape for more than a couple of hours, the only thing will keep me sane is an alternate means of getting nic, such as gum.

 

[DancingHeretik]

I agree with this......yes when I smoked, it was addictive, but vaped, not so sure it really is.. .. now that i have been vaping fir 7 years, I think vaping nic is not all that bad. I have tried , quit a few times to stop vaping for days, and have done it easily even at 24mg nic....if I were to stop smoking like that, after a few hrs I would of been climbing trees. I literally have stopped vaping for 3 days, a few times and didn't miss it at all...

From what I understand, once someone has smoked and become addicted, they stay addicted. Vaping is less addictive. But, the addiction from smoking has already set in.

Of course, everyone is different. Some people can even quit cold turkey with very little effort.

We all have different susceptibilities.

 

[Katya]

Very interesting conversation. Our brains are so complex and still so poorly understood.

I see a difference between physical dependence on a substance like nicotine (or caffeine, to a certain, lesser degree) and true addiction. Physical dependence is common and often very hard to overcome--withdrawal symptoms can be hard, ranging from brain fog, mental desert, inability to focus all the way to insomnia, anxiety and depression, as we all know. But withdrawal symptoms are not necessarily a sign of addiction. To me addiction starts when people lose control over their lives in pursuit of the next fix--when they stop caring about their families, jobs, friends, and possessions. And when withdrawal symptoms are so brutal that they can actually kill and require medical intervention--vomiting, profuse sweating, tremors, hallucinations, delirium. But since it is against this forum's policy to discuss the subject, I'll stop right here.

Having said that, my name is Katya and I'm physically dependent on nicotine (and caffeine)--and probably always will be. But those two substances make me function better, not worse. And though I get very cranky when I have to leave my house in the morning without a cup of coffee and my nic fix, I can get to work and do my job, nevertheless.

 

[stols001]

I'm not sure whether it's a physical or psychological thing but I definitely need nic right now. IDK if a short study of NRT without a hx of smoking using the patch, say, for a month may have a different brain chemistry than someone who has been inhaling nic combined with other chemicals for decades, I'm not sure how valid the comparison is. I wills say I can go longer without vaping, but not that long, and not in stressful situations. So, IDK....

Anna

 

[jfcooley]

No coffee, no nic, no survivors....

Trust me, at 5 am better be one or both around. It's not pretty.

 

[Rossum]

And though I get very cranky when I have to leave my house in the morning without a cup of coffee and my nic fix, I can get to work and do my job, nevertheless.

Inconceivable. Without them, I'd just stay in bed.

 

[Eskie]

The method of delivery also contributes to dependence with something like nicotine. A cigarette is a great drug delivery system. When you inhale, you're providing a large surface area for absorption with all that surface area in your lungs. That results in a very rapid increase in concentration directly into the blood heading for your brain (lungs feed arteries, veins are for returning the "used" deoxygenated blood). Absorbing through the lungs also results in a first pass bypass, going directly through your body, rather than filtered and detoxified through your liver before moving on (for example what happens when you swallow a pill).

Think about other addictive substances. They're usually used in a manner to increase their effect by rapid absorption. Vaping is closer to smoking as it's still using that larger surface area and still getting to your brain before the liver starts chewing it up. OTOH, a patch provides a steady slow release (no peaks and troughs) and does pass through your liver before going around to the rest of your body (detoxified to a degree before it hits your brain). That method might deliver the same amount of nicotine over a period of time, but without the peaks achieved by smoking. Maybe the closest you can get would be gum (although absorption there is limited to the surface of your mouth/gums) or nasal spray (higher peak absorption than the others).

Every single substance with the potential of abuse/addiction will vary in it's effect and appeal to an individual. Not everyone who drinks develops dependence. Same for others that we all know would be on such a list. That stuff, like nicotine, all comes down to brain chemistry, genetics, and environment and epigenetics. Which is why you can see "social smokers" who occasionally have a cigarette but can go for extended periods without having or craving one.

 

[stols001]

Man, I used to hate those folks, LOL. Until I realized I would actually not enjoy being a social smoker, I kind of wanted to smoke all the time....

No surprise I am addicted to nicotine. I agree about the patch, Eskie, I can't stand wearing one it's just sheer, crawly, irritable "never enough nicotine" all the time. When I need NRT (like, for example, my son's jury trial coming up) I always get lozenges, at least dissolving through the mucus membranes is better than the patch!

I did know a former smoker who was having cravings, picked up the gum to see if it would help, and got addicted to the gum. She's still chewing it like 7 years later, I can't imagine the expense, but she's an architect... If I were back East, I might try to introduce her to vaping, heh.

Anna

 

[Rossum]

I did know a former smoker who was having cravings, picked up the gum to see if it would help, and got addicted to the gum. She's still chewing it like 7 years later, I can't imagine the expense

I doubt she "got addicted to the gum". Smoking got her addicted to nicotine. Some people can kick that after a while, but others never really can and need something too replace it, otherwise they have a high risk of recidivism. After 7 years, she's still not smoking, right?

As for the expense, it's probable comparable to smoking. Some relatively popular forms of vaping are too, e.g. the Juul at $4 for a pod containing a whopping 3/4 of a ml of juice. Of course with DIY liquid and rebuildable atties, the ongoing cost of vaping can be so close to zero as to be essentially negligible, but this is not a motivating factor for everyone. I didn't go in that direction due to cost considerations either. For me, it was simply to be certain that goobermint could never, ever prevent me from vaping and thereby tempt me to start smoking again.

 

[stols001]

I'll agree I didn't go into DIY or rebuilding because of cost, it was more fear of impending deeming. But I'm certainly glad I did as I really enjoy both, actually....

Yes, technically she's addicted to the nicotine probably, though there is something about chewing gum that is slightly soothing, I used it for 6 mo once trying to quit smoking.... I will say I wasn't happy chewing nic gum, particularly, it's nothing like vaping and (IMO) not too much like smoking either. I knit feverishly the entire time and I was super grumpy.

To me, the gum is more expensive, but we used an electric injector machine and loose tobacco-- it's much cheaper. When I chewed the gum I imported it from Russia or Romania or someplace (still legal to do at that time.) I agree NRT is probably comparable to the cost of smoking for most folks, though.

Anna

 

[Rossum]

I used it for 6 mo once trying to quit smoking.... I will say I wasn't happy chewing nic gum, particularly, it's nothing like vaping and (IMO) not too much like smoking either.

Right, gum is nowhere near as good a substitute for smoking as vaping is. About the only time I'm in a position where I can't vape for more than an hour or two is when I'm flying. Gum does take the edge off enough that I'm not obsessing about opening the emergency exit and climbing out on the wing at 30,000 feet. But the moment I get on the ground and out of the terminal, I still want a vape, right fracking now, no matter how fresh a piece of gum I've got.

 

[mattiem]

Only time will tell if folks that NEVER SMOKED but started vaping with nicotine will end up dependent on nicotine. I agree that we that smoked are dependent on it but studies have been done that show that NEVER smokers taking nicotine did not become dependent on it.

I confess that I am dependent on nicotine. I see dependence and addiction as two different things. Several years ago I had to start taking a strong prescription pain reliever. I took them for almost a year. Coming off of those things wasn't pleasant. I actually had a physical reaction to that but managed to wean myself off of them. I have NEVER felt anything like that when I've attempted to stop smoking.

It really is a shame that even we can't seem to separate one from the other. In that case how can we ever expect non-smokers/non-vapers to understand the difference if even we can't see and understand it.

 

[Rossum]

I agree that we that smoked are dependent on it

Some of us are. But people are different. Plenty of people have quite smoking without any replacement at all and some of them have even stayed quit. Plenty of vapers have reduced their nic to zero. OTOH, some of us have found it these to be somewhere between too difficult and downright impossible.

Only time will tell if folks that NEVER SMOKED but started vaping with nicotine will end up dependent on nicotine.

Again, people are different. I suspect what we'll see in the long run is that some people who never smoked but only used "clean" nic (e.g. in the form of vaping or gum) will become dependent on it. There are already some anecdotal stories out there about this from never-smokers who used gum as a stimulant. However, I expect that the percentage of users who become dependent will be lower than smokers or other "whole tobacco" users because clean nic isn't potentiated by the other alkaloids and MAOIs present in tobacco.

 

[vapdivrr]

All I can say is, either the addictive stuff in smokes is more other chemicals then nic, and after 7 years of not smoking this has completely gone from my system, and in vaping, the nic has not been addictive to me, because after 3 days a few different times of not vaping, it didn't affect me at all....or it takes more then 3 days for the addictive effects take hold?

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[mattiem]

Some of us are. But people are different. Plenty of people have quite smoking without any replacement at all and some of them have even stayed quit. Plenty of vapers have reduced their nic to zero. OTOH, some of us have found it these to be somewhere between too difficult and downright impossible.

I am in the downright impossible camp and that is the reason I have lots and lots of it in my freezer. I started lowering my nic. Got down to 10 but have now gone back up to at least 12 and have added a touch of WTA to the mix. even after 6 years of vaping I still felt like something was missing so was a chain vapor. The WTA's seem to be it. I am actually able to put my devices down now where before the WTA it seemed to be glued to my hand. 45+ years of smoking definitely left me dependent on the act and effect of smoking.

Again, people are different. I suspect what we'll see in the long run is that some people who never smoked but only used "clean" nic (e.g. in the form of vaping or gum) will become dependent on it. There are already some anecdotal stories out there about this from never-smokers who used gum as a stimulant. However, I expect that the percentage of users who become dependent will be lower than smokers or other "whole tobacco" users because clean nic isn't potentiated by the other alkaloids and MAOIs present in tobacco.

Good points and I agree, one size does not fit all since we are all so different in our needs.

 

[vapdivrr]

So why did you start vaping again?

People are different. If I'm put in a situation where I can't vape for more than a couple of hours, the only thing will keep me sane is an alternate means of getting nic, such as gum.

I knew someone was going to ask this....because been vaping 7 years and I absolutely love it. My heath has increased so much in that time, I literally feel like I never smoked, and I did, over 30 years....I just love vaping and everything that goes with it, it's like a hobby to me. Also I love all the gear I have, it's just beautiful stuff and alot is one of a kind. I just feel that at my age, why give up now, for I enjoy it and I'm doing awesome, and no matter how small the probability of going back to smoking, why take that chance. I guess the main reason is, is that I just enjoy it to much .

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[Rossum]

I knew someone was going to ask this....because been vaping 7 years and I absolutely love it. My heath has increased so much in that time, I literally feel like I never smoked, and I did, over 30 years....I just love vaping and everything that goes with it, it's like a hobby to me. Also I love all the gear I have, it's just beautiful stuff and alot is one of a kind. I just feel that at my age, why give up now, for I enjoy it and I'm doing awesome, and no matter how small the probability of going back to smoking, why take that chance. I guess the main reason is, is that I just enjoy it to much .

I understand much of that completely. You should see my mod collection.

But all of that could be addressed with zero-nic juice, right?

Please don't feel like I'm trying to give you a hard time; I'm not. I'm one of the last people on earth to try to tell someone else should try to live their life. My only qualm is that lots of folks try to project their own experience with this stuff on others, and that's something that often doesn't work. Hence my constant refrain: People are different.

 

[vapdivrr]

I understand much of that completely. You should see my mod collection.

But all of that could be addressed with zero-nic juice, right?

Please don't feel like I'm trying to give you a hard time; I'm not. I'm one of the last people on earth to try to tell someone else should try to live their life. My only qualm is that lots of folks try to project their own experience with this stuff on others, and that's something that often doesn't work. Hence my constant refrain: People are different.

Everyone is different and I don't know why I have seemed to be fixed......but it kind of happened like I imagined vaping would.....when I started vaping 7 years back, I figured in time my cig addiction would fade away and it really has....I don't think a vaping habit is anything like a cigarette habit, how could it? There are so many chemicals in a burning cigarette that are not in vaping, so it makes sense to me....Personally I don't feel like nic in vaping is a bad thing, and in some studies, find it to be a helpful thing in some cases. I could never give up nic in vaping for one reason, TH....I just love that thump, and the only way it happens is with nic. I even tried 18mg and it's just too weak, and would definitely give up if I couldn't obtain that feeling....I know most don't have my results, and people who read my results know this instantly, so I'm sure no one is going count on someone else's ways. It's simply a discussion here in which everyone shares his or her results, I am certainly not here to push my ways on anybody else

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[Beamslider]

I think both caffeine and nicotine are addictive on some level. May not be physical for the main part but still both are hard to quit totally