Diketones will destroy vaping before they destroys your lungs

[zoiDman]

Most don't say outright that they want zero risk. However, when you start questioning why they want something removed from the market, or restricted for use it becomes "because it's potentially harmful." When you ask for proof, actual proof, that it's harmful then you get "it's been shown in these other contexts to be harmful and that's good enough." Say, well, this is a different context, and we don't know at what levels or even really IF it actually IS harmful, then you get "well the potential is good enough."

That is an (incomplete)argument for zero risk.

What would you like to see that would Justify removing a Chemical Flavoring from an e-liquid?

 

[Lessifer]

What would you like to see that would Justify removing a Chemical Flavoring from an e-liquid?

For me, personally? I would prefer something being studied in our context, such as suspended in a mixture of pg/vg, heated and aerosolized by an atomizer, with the amount of deposition of the components throughout the airway. How much is in the vapor, how much is deposited in the mouth, trachea, upper airway, lower airway, etc.

Actual clinical trials with humans would be even better.

 

[zoiDman]

For me, personally? I would prefer something being studied in our context, such as suspended in a mixture of pg/vg, heated and aerosolized by an atomizer, with the amount of deposition of the components throughout the airway. How much is in the vapor, how much is deposited in the mouth, trachea, upper airway, lower airway, etc.

Actual clinical trials with humans would be even better.

So something like the Protocol in this Study would not be Enough so show that an e-Liquid was Harmful?

Development of an in vitro cytotoxicity model for aerosol exposure using 3D reconstructed human airway tissue; application for assessment of e-cigarette aerosol

But it is OK to Show that an e-Liquid is Not Harmful?

 

[Lessifer]

So something like the Protocol in this Study would not be Enough so show that an e-Liquid was Harmful?

Development of an in vitro cytotoxicity model for aerosol exposure using 3D reconstructed human airway tissue; application for assessment of e-cigarette aerosol

But it is OK to Show that an e-Liquid is Not Harmful?

I think it's a step in the right direction for both. I didn't say that was "proof" that e-cigs aren't harmful. Most of the studies use protocols designed for smoking, which is similar to vaping, but definitely not the same.

 

[Koolkiz]

Personally, I mix my own eliquid because I choose not to inhale extra diketones in my lungs. However, it's my choice. Do I vape diketones-yes, sometimes. I do have control over what I choose.

Flavorart has the safest flavorings out there with actual tests. Home
I cannot find my book mark related to acetoin. Flavourart does use minute amounts of acetoin. However, it is stated that it may be safer if it is not mixed with butyric acid. See this: Inhalation dosimetry of diacetyl and butyric acid, two components of butter flavoring vapors. - PubMed - NCBI
I do use other brands as well.

I do think vendors should be honest and disclose the facts.

 

[zoiDman]

I think it's a step in the right direction for both. I didn't say that was "proof" that e-cigs aren't harmful. Most of the studies use protocols designed for smoking, which is similar to vaping, but definitely not the same.

I think it is about as good as we are going to get. Short of Using Rats or some other "Experimental" Primate. Because Human Trials might be Hard to do.

I mean, there might be some Ethical Questions raised if I wanted to test Chemicals on Humans, with the Risk of Blowing Out their lungs, just to find a Creamy / Buttery Flavoring that could be put in a Vuse e-Liquid. Or in a Vype.

 

[stevegmu]

I think it is about as good as we are going to get. Short of Using Rats or some other "Experimental" Primate. Because Human Trials might be Hard to do.

I mean, there might be some Ethical Questions raised if I wanted to test Chemicals on Humans, with the Risk of Blowing Out their lungs, just to find a Creamy / Buttery Flavoring that could be put in a Vuse e-Liquid. Or in a Vype.

There are plenty of willing subjects...

 

[Racehorse]

But, they cared enough to quit smoking. Maybe they care about their health more than you think.

One can eat large amounts of heart healthy fats containing high amounts of omega 3 and 6 fatty acids. They may be overweight and have very high good cholesterol levels, which actually make them quite healthy. The Italian side of my family seems to be this way. Grandma, who once made booze in the bathtub, was quite obese and in good health. She lived into her 90s. Her sister and brothers are all obese, still alive, and in their 90s. Obese does not always translate to unhealthy, or eating McDonalds. Their obesity may put stress on their joints, but their hearts are doing well despite their weight.

Very true, you just described my grandmother (god rest her soul).

However, I can assure you she never ate fast food or junk food. I don't think she knew that stuff existed. That generation didn't.

 

[Racehorse]

Most don't say outright that they want zero risk. However, when you start questioning why they want something removed from the market, or restricted for use

WHY do you guys keep putting forth this "restricted" and "removed" stuff?

ZoiDman, myself, steve, and just about everyone who doesn't want to vape DAP have never said they wanted anything removed, restricted or regulated.

See, some of you keep using that like some kind of club to make us look bad. Simply because we don't want to vape DAP, and suggest that others make that CHOICE too.

Find me a post by any of us that says anything about regulating or removing these products from the market in general.

that we choose to spend our money with those vendors who can assure us, with test results, that our eliquid doens't contain it, is another thing. I might also put forward that, in a sense, vendors who are willing to spend a few dollars on stuff like this, seem infinitely better than the circus hawkers slinging their ejuice and won't drop a dime to assure their customers of anything.

So yeah, the ones who test WILL be getting my money,

 

[Lessifer]

WHY do you guys keep putting forth this "restricted" and "removed" stuff?

ZoiDman, myself, steve, and just about everyone who doesn't want to vape DAP have never said they wanted anything removed, restricted or regulated.

See, some of you keep using that like some kind of club to make us look bad. Simply because we don't want to vape DAP, and suggest that others make that CHOICE too.

Find me a post by any of us that says anything about regulating or removing these products from the market in general.

that we choose to spend our money with those vendors who can assure us, with test results, that our eliquid doens't contain it, is another thing. I might also put forward that, in a sense, vendors who are willing to spend a few dollars on stuff like this, seem infinitely better than the circus hawkers slinging their ejuice and won't drop a dime to assure their customers of anything.

So yeah, the ones who test WILL be getting my money,

I never said YOU wanted it gone, or zoidman, or even steve, but here is a quote from the OP:

E-juice HAS IN IT chemicals that have been proven to damage the lungs, yet all I see are excuses from people as to why its still being sold.

He goes on to say it more clearly later, although still professing that he only wants the information, I'll leave it up to you to find the contradictions that spurred my first post in this thread.

We've been through this before, wanting the information is fine, asking vendors for the information is fine, not buying from vendors who don't supply the information is fine. Once you start calling for mandates on all vendors to disclose, or take it further saying that it should be eliminated from the market as a whole, then some of us are going to step up in defense. Even some of us who don't really even use the stuff.

ETA: a good way to tell if I'm talking about you, is if I quote one of your posts or mention you.

 

[Mazinny]

When you are calling for ALL vendors to remove the "deadly" diketones from their liquids, you are trying to give yourself the power to tell others what to vape. That is the issue people have with your posts. If you don't want to vape it, fine, don't. Stop trying to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do. Stop trying to tell vendors what they should or shouldn't use. If you don't want it, look for vendors who don't use it, you have been pointed in the right direction multiple times.

But surely he has the right to call for vendors to remove anything he wants. Just as vendors ( and you ) have the right to ignore his call, argue against it or mock it. He doesn't have the authority or power to impose his will on anyone. Why should he " stop trying to tell vendors " anything ? He has a right to his own opinion and the right to express it, regardless of how over the top it is and whether his moral outrage is genuine or feigned. He doesn't need a consensus or even a seconder.

Ironic that you are admonishing him for telling others what to do ( even though i couldn't find a post were he did that expressly ) and then you are telling him to stop doing what he is doing.

 

[Racehorse]

I never said YOU wanted it gone, or zoidman, or even steve, but here is a quote from the OP

Okay, I get ya.

You know, as outspoken as I "can" be on this subject, it was kinda comforting that I am somewhat less extreme than some others about it. That was a little bit reassuring to me

As for the OP......I only believe that Dr F and Kurt and others were "of the opinion" that DAP might not be a great idea to vape.........but as we know there are NO STUDIES on this with regard to vapers and how we use DAP eliquids. So it's not like we know anything for sure, only that in the scheme of things it's a "proceed with caution" kind of thing.

You know I know this.

I just want transparency and no lying......and then everyone can live happily ever after

 

[Lessifer]

@Racehorse I just re-read my last post and realize it came off a bit snotty, didn't mean it that way, I'm not feeling well today.

There are many of the usual faces in this thread and I know this is a big issue for you. We've discussed it before and I'm familiar with your stance and you, along with zoidman, are pretty reasonable about it. You want transparency, I'm not opposed to that, though I think there are issues that could arise from it. That does not seem to be the intention of the OP.

But surely he has the right to call for vendors to remove anything he wants. Just as vendors ( and you ) have the right to ignore his call, argue against it or mock it. He doesn't have the authority or power to impose his will on anyone. Why should he " stop trying to tell vendors " anything ? He has a right to his own opinion and the right to express it, regardless of how over the top it is and whether his moral outrage is genuine or feigned. He doesn't need a consensus or even a seconder.

Ironic that you are admonishing him for telling others what to do ( even though i couldn't find a post were he did that expressly ) and then you are telling him to stop doing what he is doing.

Yes, he can say whatever he wants. However, if he is calling for the elimination of something because HE doesn't think it should be there, he will run into opposition. Ain't America grand?

ETA: and when the OP starts off with lies/exaggerations that are being passed of as Truths, he will be called on it.

 

[roxynoodle]

Very true, you just described my grandmother (god rest her soul).

However, I can assure you she never ate fast food or junk food. I don't think she knew that stuff existed. That generation didn't.

The key to longevity may be olive oil.

 

[Mazinny]

@Racehorse


Yes, he can say whatever he wants. However, if he is calling for the elimination of something because HE doesn't think it should be there, he will run into opposition. Ain't America grand?

Absolutely ! America is grand ( still ).

Of course he will "run into opposition". You can count on it. Just pointing out the unintended irony in your post.

Despite what you may think i enjoy reading the majority of your posts, and even if i don't agree with some of what you say, it at least makes me re-examine my own positions and leads me to think about why i hold these positions.

I for one enjoy reading these threads, even though i have recently stopped participating, because i got tired of repeating myself ( often to the same people !). The more divergent the opinions, the better. If we try to stop people expressing their opinions ( however outrageous ) we make ourselves " prisoners of our own actions ". Who knows, there might even be a kernel of truth in the most outrageous position.

 

[Moonbogg]

The reason I made this thread is because I think vaping is an incredible opportunity for public health. I also think that vaping is being closely watched, very intimately, by an armada of powerful opponents who are recording our every move, down to the batting of an eyelash. Every mistake or act of carelessness will, and has been, used against us.
If we provide them with a golden opportunity such as outright lung damage resulting from using these products, then threads like these which were once intended to change minds, will end up being nothing more than a collective diary detailing the industry's suicide.

 

[c3scott]

Your government won't kill it they will tax it.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Where is all the outright lung damage they can point too?
Especially from vaping neversmokers.

 

[c3scott]

The reason I made this thread is because I think vaping is an incredible opportunity for public health. I also think that vaping is being closely watched, very intimately, by an armada of powerful opponents who are recording our every move, down to the batting of an eyelash. Every mistake or act of carelessness will, and has been, used against us.
If we provide them with a golden opportunity such as outright lung damage resulting from using these products, then threads like these which were once intended to change minds, will end up being nothing more than a collective diary detailing the industry's suicide.

 

[WillyZee]

Where is all the outright lung damage they can point too?
Especially from vaping neversmokers.

for the guys who are lung hitting 5ml of flavouring per day ... it might not show until 5 more years

where as, only 5 years ago ... everyone was Tootle Puffing

maybe we are looking at a case of ... the poison is in the dose.