Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors
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For the sake of science and out of respect for those who've participated in this thread, I did an independent study on my own juices this morning. I've been a diy'er for nearly 2 years and have been vaping the same flavors exclusively for nearly a year and a half. My main component is Capella VC V1.....sometimes V2, but mainly V1.
Findings:
They are delicious.
They save me a ton of money
Findings:
They are delicious.
They save me a ton of money
This is my own stance, personally. I can't say that diketones *causes* bronchiolitis obliterans, for me or for anyone else; there is apparently a *link* between the substance and the condition, but that's all, at this point, that can really be said -- we don't know how strong a link, how much is necessary, what other substances might be involved, what pre-existing conditions in the afflicted may exist, or much of anything else, for sure -- what we DO know is that there *MAY* be a risk, and as such, is a needless risk. To say "well I like the flavors, so I'm going to believe that there is no risk at all and go around telling everyone that, so I can keep using these flavors in peace" is very much a child's attitude, and an ostrich with its head in the sand. Until more is known, CONCLUSIVELY, it's really kinda stupid to keep using those flavors as if there really is no risk at all. Others saying things like "well it says that butyric acid can cause irritation, so it's just as bad" is really just plain stupid; bronchiolitis obliterans -- notice that last part of the name? causes DESTRUCTION of the lungs, irreversible, requiring a lung transplant to continue LIVING. Butyric acid can cause IRRITATION of the lungs; so if you get irritated, you stop using it, and the irritation goes away. Anyone who can't see the difference between the two risks really shouldn't be playing with any of these chemicals.
Andria
Ouch, that hurt. Not.
I smoked for around 50 years. For most of that time I believed it was bad for me and I could see the effects every day. I rode motorcycles most of my adult life, I knew I could reduce my chances of serious injury if I drove a car. I'm going to Ocean City next month and I'll probably do some swimming even though I know there are sharks out there. I have a friend who picked up a couple of acres out of town where he maintains a stock of canned food and other stuff, woe is me when the CME hits. Now I vape, even though I know there's a chance some part of that could cause some level of harm to me, but I like it and it keeps me off the cigs. It's life. Maybe I'm missing something important but I'm OK with that.
You and Mike Both - Whats your problem?
Why is it that someone with a differing opinion should be insulted or treated in a demeaning manor?
You are not necessarily Smarter or better simply for making different choices.
People have clearly posted they understand their may be some risk and they have chosen to accept it. No different than choosing to continue Sky Diving or Driving on a crowded freeway daily.
Life is full of risk. Each individual must decide for themselves which they will take and which they will attempt to avoid.
Maybe you could show a little more compassion for fellow members and speak to the matter itself.
That said - I purchase my Flavorings from Perfumers Apprentice(TFA Flavors) and know exactly what I am Mixing and likely vape lesser concentrates of flavoring than most that purchase their e-liquids. I enjoy variety and seldom Vape anything creamy/custardy. I have also ordered and am in the process of taste testing alternative flavorings for substitution.
Head in the Sand...............la la land.........
I think NOT.
Me too...
I agree that there is probably some risk, but I like my flavors so I am willing to take that risk. Does that make me stupid?
I probably take a greater risk every day just driving to work.
I agree that there is probably some risk, but I like my flavors so I am willing to take that risk. Does that make me stupid?
I probably take a greater risk every day just driving to work.
Unless it's a family member or a close friend, i really don't think anyone cares what anyone else is vaping ( well they probably shouldn't anyway ) or what level of risk they are willing to take in their personal life. Perhaps we should stop trying to justify our personal position on the issue and/or trying to convince others what level of risk is appropriate for them.
I think this thread should be about disclosure. I am happy that Vaporshark provided me with more info. If vendors are unhappy with what Vaporshark did they should stop doing business with them. If you think the results are inaccurate, publish your own results ( talking to you Cyclops Vapors ). Don't write a letter to your customers stating that your own tests came up with a lower number without publishing it. If you think this is a non-issue, state it clearly. Just don't lie !!
What we have going on is self-regulation at work. There are vendors that cater to those who would rather not vape these chemicals ( and they are increasing in number ). There certainly is no shortage of vendors catering to those who like dairy flavored vapes either.
Everyone is a winner !
I think this thread should be about disclosure. I am happy that Vaporshark provided me with more info. If vendors are unhappy with what Vaporshark did they should stop doing business with them. If you think the results are inaccurate, publish your own results ( talking to you Cyclops Vapors ). Don't write a letter to your customers stating that your own tests came up with a lower number without publishing it. If you think this is a non-issue, state it clearly. Just don't lie !!
What we have going on is self-regulation at work. There are vendors that cater to those who would rather not vape these chemicals ( and they are increasing in number ). There certainly is no shortage of vendors catering to those who like dairy flavored vapes either.
Everyone is a winner !
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TFA is very clear about what flavorings have diketones, acetoins, butyric acid, acetyl proprianol, etc. It's all in the notes. If somebody were a "professional" eliquid mixer, they would know this as well as most of the DIYers right here. You don't get it. They don't care. The AP gives a mouth-feel that people like and if a vendor can move it out the door and make $$ they will.
Flavour Art tested theirs, clearstream project, etc.
Sorry, but tired of all the excuses and "blaming the flavoring people! It's just an exxcuse not to be accountable for what is in your product.. The buck keeps getting passed and the excuses keep flying.
You are mixing ejuice, you have a CHOICE of what to put in there before you push it out the door to your customers. And, now, we have disclaimers, I guess all the ejuice companies have lawyers who tell them to write these things. They seem to be vastly unaware of the problems they will encounter IF someone is harmed, because in consumer protect law, if a product is used *as intended* (i.e. you vape eliquid, not take a bath in it) and it causes lung function problems, you are liable. And, it won't be a matter of "well they used to smoke so you can't blame us." I worked briefly in asbestos litigation against mining companies, when it all first came out and there was so much paperwork from class action suits they couldn't keep up.........but let me tell you that all you have to do is have exposure history...there were plenty of asbestiosis victims who smoked. That "excuse" didn't hold up
Of course most of the eliquid people are LLCs......there's a reason for that. And I expect if anything like that did happen, you'd just get a 404 when you went to the website.
NOt saying this would happen but the truth is that each vapor needs to decide these things for themselves and just remember there is nobody who is going to "be there" for you if you decide wrong.
(this idea of a vendor trying to be your best friend , when they are marketing to you, crosses a whole lot of boundaries for me, but that is another topic for another day.........)I saw/heard this segment, it was amazing. He really held feet to fire and all there was on other end of the phone was stuttering. This was in 2015, no less. It would be different if this show was done back in 2010.
What finally threw me over to DIY was the bottle of ejuice I received w/titanium dioxide. I had already had to throw out the dye-colored eliquids that I didn't know would be bright blue, and the acetyl proprianol-laden ones when testing came out later on. I just got tired of wasting money, in essence. But the TO one was what threw me over the edge, I cannot tell you how po'ed I was about that one.
Honest mistake? Fine, sure. But really, is it an excuse that you don't know what you're doing, you are in the biz of making ejuice and don't even know that you've placed a poisonous contaminant in your eliquid?I am against regulation. Let people vape what they want, and let them be savvy consumers. But not sure how they CAN do that if they are lied to. You can't be a savvy consumer if you don't have information that is correct.
But I've also seen what happens when industries refuse to step up and act like professionals. So, I can't tell you that regulation won't happen. There are always those who will ruin everything for everyone else by not being accountable.
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This goes well beyond the point of someone taking a known risk, which is your choice. We are talking about companies that are claiming to be free of a known toxic chemical and proven to be wrong. The only unknown is wether it was willful intent or ignorance. Since this subject has been around a few years both options are inexcusable. This is a very different scenario from someone riding a motorcycle or swimming in the ocean.
If someone wants to use these favorings I am certainly not going to try and stop them, it is the people who don't want to take the risk and are being lied to, that is the problem.
I agree you should be able to vape what you like. That doesn't make you dumb, it makes you a person aware of your options and a person willing to take certain risks.
The problem is that there are still vendors saying they don't use certain things, but won't test, so they cant prove it. This is what I'm talking about.....one can be "not dumb" but if kept in the dark, one can be rendered "functionally dumb".
Not at all, but I think it does very clearly demonstrate the difference in how people respond to risk -- I am risk-averse, so I never gamble. Some people are risk-seekers and love gambling, but to me it's just stupid. (though I do buy the occasional $1 lottery ticket; $1, I can gamble with, because you can't win if you don't play!)
And yes, my risk-aversion is why I constantly questioned my own sanity, when I smoked -- I knew very well I was taking an enormous risk, and I hated it, but no matter what I did, I just couldn't get free of the need to smoke -- till e-cigs. Now that I'm free of them, I've reverted to my usual risk-aversion as my primary life strategy.
Andria
Tips of Using Vegetable Glycerin - EnkiVillage
You are aware Vegetable glycerin is Toxic right? As well as propylene Glycol.
Again as with most things - Use in Vaping is, at this point, an unknown.
Argue all you want. Until true, clear, scientific studies are completed and released non of this is more than people taking sides over something they are not certain about.
If a Vendor did not know - well, now they have a chance to correct.
If a Vendor flatly lied - time to stop supporting and find a trustworthy Vendor...........
Oops, there is that Marketing ploy at work.
By your logic, you shouldn't be vaping either. There's nothing 100% conclusive on vaping in general. Yet, those of us who choose to use what we want are "stupid".Not at all, but I think it does very clearly demonstrate the difference in how people respond to risk -- I am risk-averse, so I never gamble. Some people are risk-seekers and love gambling, but to me it's just stupid. (though I do buy the occasional $1 lottery ticket; $1, I can gamble with, because you can't win if you don't play!)
And yes, my risk-aversion is why I constantly questioned my own sanity, when I smoked -- I knew very well I was taking an enormous risk, and I hated it, but no matter what I did, I just couldn't get free of the need to smoke -- till e-cigs. Now that I'm free of them, I've reverted to my usual risk-aversion as my primary life strategy.
Andria
If you read her post, with an open mind and heart, you would see just how "personal" the post is....she was talking about HERSELF, not you or anyone else.
If you were not looking to be offended, it is very clear that Andria meant "stupid for me" ---- as her entire post was about her own personal aversion to risk taking.
Taking words out of the context in which they were written is really poor form.
Not to mention, I haven't seen Andria throw *personal insults* directly at anyone on this forum in the entire time she's been here.
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Again, Asbestos, it's a matter of being able to 1) read with context and 2) knowing the posting style of certain people here.
My take on Andria is that she is a very personalized poster, she describes, almost stream-of-consciousness, blog-style, her struggles with vaping and some of the problems she has encountered (because she has encountered a lot more problems than some vapers due to pre-existing health problems and allergies).
I imagine that, based on her personal experience, she has to be more risk-adverse, as her health is very much *immediately* affected by the choices she makes.
At least from the way I read, she is usually very much talking about her own experience --- At least, that is my take.
When I post something, do I have to add "for me" every other sentence? I mean, I just ASSUME that people reading understand that I am talking from my own perspective. I make no recommendations for others, except to share what I believe are valid points.
Dr. F. said acetyl proprianol and diketones don't belong in ejuice. He was giving his opinion. (One that I just happen to agree with.) Nowhere will you see me saying it should be illegal, or regulated. However, I WILL warn vapers about the possibility that it is worrisome......because a researcher I trust has said so. That was not an uneducated opinion, like my own, or 99% of the posters here....... but that of a medical researcher who is sympathetic and supportive of the vaping community.
Everyone will decide for themselves which information to use, and what advice to follow. For me, the marketing copy on an e-vendor site means nothing to me. A doctor who is vape friendly who can point to actual tests where lung function was decreased.....is a different story.
Ya'll do what you want.
Quite frankly, I expect more reseach will come out, and those who want to stubbornly market eliquids with contaminants will be out of business by 2017, so my advice to them is make as much $$ as you can now (they are) and for their customers, "start stockpiling" those brands and/or buying AP and diketone-laden flavorings before they are off the market....
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I see you've been around here for a long time. I've read enough old threads to know that diketones have been on the radar on ECF for many years. It's only recently that vendors have even started doing these tests and selling diketone free stuff.
The good thing is that the climate is changing and they will have to start watching their backs if they make claims they can't substantiate. It can't be made right overnight though. And god help us if feds come in to make it right for us.
Meanwhile, we have to make our own mind up who to trust. That's what I did, and I'm fairly sure I'm putting DK free flavors in my juice. I don't think it's that hard if you're willing to do the research. 100% sure is never an option.
Bwahaha...Yes and I would add that the Kidstapo is the driving force behind most ANTZ propaganda.
I would just as soon relegate my body to the study of what if anything vaping for almost two years now,..and for however much longer I walk the earth,..but alas,..it wouldn't be very PC as I'm an old guy from the south..They would chalk anything good they found out up to my choice in BBQ sauce and not vaping I'm afraid.
Again, Asbestos, it's a matter of being able to 1) read with context and 2) knowing the posting style of certain people here.
My take on Angela is that she is a very personalized poster, she describes, almost stream-of-consciousness, blog-style, her struggles with vaping and some of the problems she has encountered (because she has encountered a lot more problems than some vapers due to pre-existing health problems and allergies).
I imagine that, based on her personal experience, she has to be more risk-adverse, as her health is very much *immediately* affected by the choices she makes.
At least from the way I read, she is usually very much talking about her own experience --- At least, that is my take.
When I post something, do I have to add "for me" every other sentence? I mean, I just ASSUME that people reading understand that I am talking from my own perspective. I make no recommendations for others, except to share what I believe are valid points.
Dr. F. said acetyl proprianol and diketones don't belong in ejuice. He was giving his opinion. (One that I just happen to agree with.) Nowhere will you see me saying it should be illegal, or regulated. However, I WILL warn vapers about the possibility that it is worrisome......because a researcher I trust has said so. That was not an uneducated opinion, like my own, or 99% of the posters here....... but that of a medical researcher who is sympathetic and supportive of the vaping community.
Everyone will decide for themselves which information to use, and what advice to follow. For me, the marketing copy on an e-vendor site means nothing to me. A doctor who is vape friendly who can point to actual tests where lung function was decreased.....is a different story.
Ya'll do what you want.
Quite frankly, I expect more reseach will come out, and those who want to stubbornly market eliquids with contaminants will be out of business by 2017, so my advice to them is make as much $$ as you can now (they are) and for their customers, "start stockpiling" those brands and/or buying AP and diketone-laden flavorings before they are off the market....
Though it says "Angela," I have to assume you're talking about me? -- though I'm not sure who you're talking to, since it's apparently someone I have on "ignore" status.
I would never insult someone personally, here or anywhere else; if someone takes something I say as a personal insult, it wasn't intended that way, but you know, if the shoe fits...
All I can speak about it is my own experience; I have no personal knowledge of anything else. You're exactly right that my choices have to be made very carefully, because of existing health problems, which I'm trying to make better by vaping -- because for me the only other choice is smoking, and the hazards of that, both objectively and personally, are well known; I've got a 39yr history of that particular choice, and the outcome wasn't pretty -- I don't think it was smoking that *caused* my asthma, I think that was genetic predisposition married to exposure to industrial air pollution in the Detroit environs (I developed asthma after living up there for about 9 months), along with substance abuse of the white-powder variety -- but if I had not been a smoker for 10 yrs at that point, perhaps I wouldn't have developed a permanent serious dysfunction of my lungs? I can't know, but I do have my suspicions.
And yes, vaping is very much a part of my risk-aversion; it's harm REDUCTION, because without it, I'd simply continue smoking, in chains to my cigarette addiction -- I tried 4 times to ditch them, with zero success -- the 5th time, with vaping, has been very successful, and even though I still have asthmatic issues to deal with, I know that in the long run, I'm doing myself a huge favor by vaping instead of smoking -- and that's absolutely the best I can do; I try to keep out those ingredients that will cause me immediate harm (in fact I recently changed from 84PG/16VG to 85/15 for that exact reason, I just can't vape much VG at all or I have a SERIOUS problem), and I try to also be aware of those ingredients that *might* cause delayed but very much greater harm -- such as diketones; I feel much the same about artificial color in my ejuice, though I confess I like the maraschino taste of Lorann's Cherry, despite the color; I daresay I won't be vaping a great deal of anything that contains it, but it's nice now and then.
Those who choose to vape diketones, despite the possibility of the potential for lung destruction, I don't necessarily think those people are stupid, but I do think it's a stupid, very ill-considered choice. But it's their body, not mine. If that's what they want to do, I can't and won't stop them; I don't think it needs to be "regulated" or legislated against, though some transparency in ingredients would be a great thing, IMO.
Despite the increasing prominence of the nanny state in our gov't, I don't think we have Thought Police yet, so it seems to me we're all free to think whatever we like. If someone thinks I'm a witch with a B, go right ahead, I won't stop you, and I don't really care, because I know that I'm not; opinions are like those nether orifices we all possess. And thank god for the ignore function at ECF!
Andria
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