Discouraging Nonsmokers from Vaping

[Dredbull]

That is funny that you mention panic disorder, I have a co worker who suffers from them horribly and is on all sorts of meds, He is also lamblasted with PTSD. He quit smoking a fair bit ago, I cut down and plan on getting this foul beasite off my back soon.
He and I are both vets, he suffers from ptsd and panic/anxiety disorder and is medicated. I have a milder form of ptsd from other things, and was until recently a very heavy smoker.
He spots my malfunctions and lets me slip away to feed the beastie on my back, I spot his attacks way before he does and get him to go take a breather.

So this last week I was not doing good and woke up in a complete panic attack, my first. He helped me through it, knowning I could have been self medicating all these years makes me wonder.

 

[I eat dirt]

Frankly, it is none of our business which adults decide to try vaping or smoking for that matter. My only objection is that on this forum, it is very likely that a non-smoker asking for vaping recommendations is possibly a troll from ASH.

I find that opinion very offtrack. I am an ex-smoker have been for many years.Unfortunatly they did not have this wonderful device when I quit, but I find myself trolling the forums and asking questions. Not for me but my loved ones that do smoke I think this is just the ticket they have been looking for. I personally have no intention of vaping, but my wife who is a smoker shall be my test subject. My motives are no secondhand smoke for me or my son, and our family member can live a more healthy fruitful life. As a matter of fact if things work out well with my wife, I will certainly spread the benefits to the rest of the smokers in my family. Someone has to be the one who gets educated first then spreads the knowledege.I think wheather you are a smoker or not is irrelivant from this perspective its a matter of taking action.
So in summary less of the HATE
and more support for everyone I am not against smokers but for E-cigarettes

 

[Allestaria]

That is funny that you mention panic disorder, I have a co worker who suffers from them horribly and is on all sorts of meds, He is also lamblasted with PTSD. He quit smoking a fair bit ago, I cut down and plan on getting this foul beasite off my back soon.
He and I are both vets, he suffers from ptsd and panic/anxiety disorder and is medicated. I have a milder form of ptsd from other things, and was until recently a very heavy smoker.
He spots my malfunctions and lets me slip away to feed the beastie on my back, I spot his attacks way before he does and get him to go take a breather.

So this last week I was not doing good and woke up in a complete panic attack, my first. He helped me through it, knowning I could have been self medicating all these years makes me wonder.

Its likely that you are/were. Its strange. Doc and I had a long convo about it one day when I quit for 3 months. I was wired bouncing off the walls. My panic got worse. Anxiety was driving me crazy. I felt totally out of sorts. He said it would only take a month. And the lets wait and see. Well 3 months and I just couldn't handle it. So I started smoking again. It all went away. I felt calm, rash, and the kids liked me more..LOL
You know how addicts (crack etc) fidget. Thats what I was doing. Rocking, couldn't focus, paced, paniced, cried, was awake for 4 days straight and didn't feel any bit of tired. Quit my job even.

Now my dad is a different story. He was a smoker for many years. Got up one day and just quit. Its been 30+ years now. He did become the evil man. haha I was about 5. But they upped his meds (paxil at the time) and he was able to work through it.
I on the other hand can't take the meds. So I had a really bad "side" effect of quiting. So vaping is for me. And I hope it will help my brother as well.

 

[ladyraj]

Less hate and civility should rule the day. A lot of these posts have been enlightening to me and I want to thank VocaleK for beginning this thread. My stance to advise against developing a habit could be perceived as an attempt to be my peer's keeper. Perhaps it's a knee jerk reaction and a habit all my own. Thanks for the imput, I shall think on this more.

 

[Thulium]

Nicotine without the aid of the MAOI's from tobacco smoke is not especially habit forming and it is included in the vapor only to make the vapor "feel" like smoke, otherwise we could simply use a 0-nic PV alongside an NRT but making the experience of vaping as similar as possible to smoking makes it a more effective replacement.

For most non-smokers, there is usually not enough reasons in favor of using nicotine to overcome the reasons to not risk forming a habit, but as to the question should non-smokers take up vaping? Persnoally, I support the right to choose safer and more effective smoking replacements. Vaping (with or without nicotine) is the only safer or more effective replacement for hookah smoking that many of my friends enjoy who don't otherwise smoke, so for them and I'm sure many non-smokers like them who might enjoy the oral fixation, visual effects of vapor, and zero calorie flavored air can be enjoyed by anyone.

As for the "gateway" function, perhaps someone could show a single shred of evidence that anyone has EVER developed a smoking habit from using a smoking or nicotine replacement product? Until then, I'm not sure how we can disprove a claim that hasn't been made! The closest thing that I've found is possible claims that people gave up on smokeless tobacco products because the FDA label says they aren't any safer and went back to smoking.

 

[ladyraj]

Hey Thulium, I believe our enemy of the ASH group describes this gateway function as "training wheels for tobacco products". Is there any proof...No, but he doesn't let that stop him.

 

[MrKai]

The notion of smoking being the prevalent a socially acceptable part of everyday life it once was is societally over

Really.

While vaping isn't smoking, it also isn't *not smoking* and I am as Libertarian as the next Libertarian, but I am also a realist and if anyone thinks that floating the "let's get a bunch of non-smokers vaping 0nic to bring back the good ol' days" trial balloon as a viable strategy to preserve what we have, and possibly expand it, is pipe dreaming.

We live in a world that is vastly different than 20-40 years ago and we have to deal on that level.

Think of the whole AIDS/Abstinence/Needle Exchange marketing: Wear a Condom/trade in your dirty needles.

These ideas were highly controversial....now needle exchanges are so common it is laughable to think anyone had an issue (outside of paying for such programs, natch) and condoms are advertised on TV and are a part of pop culture.

This is our path.

"Look...the best thing to do is not smoke because smoking cigarettes is deadly...if you aren't smoking, don't start and if you are, quitting is the healthy thing to do. But if you are still going to smoke, use a condom, erm, electronic cigarette to reduce the the chances of harm caused to yourself or others."

Let's try that. That has been proven to work. It is a good sell. Getting "innocent people" 'hooked' on electronic cigarettes is...

Not

-K

 

[ProfessorDaffy]

Hey Thulium, I believe our enemy of the ASH group describes this gateway function as "training wheels for tobacco products". Is there any proof...No, but he doesn't let that stop him.

But isn't ASH "training wheels for Satan's Minions?"

The original post is here is you want to know what probably got this thread started.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/42652-i-am-not-addicted-cigs-yet.html

Personally, I wouldn't wish any addiction on anyone. Adults make decisions, not all of them good ones. I can have a beer, but that doesn't mean I'm on the road to alcohol addiction. If I started having a beer every night, that's a different story. If someone said, I'm going to vape on Saturday but not the rest of the week. Okay, great go for it. If someone said, I'm going to start adding vaping to my daily routine I'd try to talk them out of it. Vaping/smoking is different than other addictions. We're taking 10+ hits, repeated hour after hour. When you're constantly being exposed to it so many times a day it's understandable that you're reinforcing the addiction in a totally different way.

If you went up to a person with a 20+ year alcohol addiction and said, "I'm not addicted to alcohol yet, but I'd like to start?" do you think he'd recommend it?

My answer is still the same. If you ask me if a non-smoker should start vaping, I'd tell them "no". If you ask me if a smoker should start vaping, I'd tell them "yes". And refer them to websites. And suggest models. And suggest e-liquid. And refer them to this forum. And tell them the sooner they get off cigarettes the better.

--Prof Daffy
P.S. Adults make their own decisions. They have to live with the decisions they make. Some can. Some can't. It's easier not to find out which you are. The easiest addition to quit is the one you never started in the first place. Just think of the money you'll save on shipping charges alone.

 

[Sparky400]

I believe that if you wish to influence a person to NOT start vaping then you shouldn't try to discourage them too much. If you do reverse psychology may come into play.


Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned in this thread herbal supplements, medication or other "active ingredients" that can also be added to the solution instead of nicotine. I haven't personally tried this. Has anyone else? Would anyone encourage this to an ecig smoker OR a non-smoker?

 

[angelique510]

I thought some of the responses to the non smoker's post in question were rather rude. Some kind of came across as "We don't want you in our club - go away."

On the other hand, I also got the feeling that the OP might have been a troll, so I didn't write a replay to him. Maybe I should have read his other posts to know for sure. He has something like 30 posts.

Thank you, Stubby, for posting the article. It was a good one. They said some things that just aren't said in our PC society.

~A

 

[Thulium]

Hey Thulium, I believe our enemy of the ASH group describes this gateway function as "training wheels for tobacco products". Is there any proof...No, but he doesn't let that stop him.

If you ever want to make yourself insane, get into a big argument about the Gateway effect. Last night I tried to find out if there was any scientific proof one way or the other and didn't come up with much. Wikipedia said that it came out of the country's Puritanical background where people believed that eating spicy foods was a gateway or stepping stone to .......

The difficult thing in battling this is that the logical error is rooted in truth: Any given "hard" drug addict certainly started with something softer, but the fallacy comes in stating that the initial substance was a "gateway" or "stepping stone" because that implies something that truly isn't there because it is turning causality on its head:

If every participant in a given activity engaged in a related activity previously, you could say that the previous activity was a gateway or stepping stone. If every person who commits suicide wrote a note, you could say that notewriting was a gateway activity. Does that mean people shouldn't write notes because it leads to suicide? Sorry, NO: Just because one activity follows another, it does not follow that the first activity causes another.

This is especially rediculous in this case because there is NO evidence to even suggest that e-cigarettes are a gateway. Perhaps when a scientific study is released showing that a large number of people who never smoked cigarettes before are becoming addicted to e-cigarettes and then moving on to analogs, then we can worry about this...but so far we haven't even got a confirmed case of a single person developing an initial addiction to nicotine from e-cigarettes, let alone using it as a gateway.

If e-cigarettes are a gateway to anything, they are a gateway or stepping stone to smoking cessation. If you are worried that by using e-cigarettes you might develop an addiction to nicotine and if you think that ANY addiction is bad, then perhaps you shouldn't play with fire if you aren't cold already....but cold or not, personally I don't see anything wrong with teaching people the safest way to build a fire even if they've never been cold in their life. Likewise, although generally speaking I would not recommend using nicotine if you don't need it, I absolutely recommend vaping to everyone who might like flavored water vapor.

 

[Kempton]

Well I quit smoking "regularily" a few years ago. However I never, never got over not having a smoke when out for drinks, or on a golf course, or on the porch on a hot day quaffing few cold ones, or fishing or hunting. I'd end up bumming one or getting a pack and stinking myself up, pissing off my wife, getting a headache. These PV's however do none of those things and I truly love to vape. I took to them like a duck to water. Should we also hope to be the last generation to drink coffee, wine, beer, spirits. Should we be the last generation to just kick back and enjoy some relaxation with nicotine, or alcohol, or some of the deadly substances in the Standard American Diet? The last being far more deadly and expensive to the health care systems than nicotine. No we shouldn't. If anyone old enough to legally smoke, and want to, then they now have a less lethal option to go to by taking up these devices. Lets face it people have been puffing on one thing or another for tens of thousands of years, maybe longer. However in the last few years we are being told on a daily basis that this or that harms us, this week this is bad for you, last week it was good for you. If someone wants to vape, let them vape, if someone wants to smoke the deadly alternative, then that is their choice. If someone wants to condemn both groups and then go home, eat a huge burger, fries, wash it down with a couple of sodas, big bowl of ice-cream then sit if front of the idiot box the rest of the night eating snacks, let them. Thing is they'll be doing their thing for a lot shorter period of time than I'll be doing mine. Then who'll be looking down at who?

 

[tmbrown327]

That's where the analogy breaks down. None of us smokers started smoking because we were looking to attain a nicotine relaxation effect. We took it up because of peer pressure, or some other equally stupid reason. Can anyone honestly say someone told them to try cigarettes because they taste yummy? It was almost invariably something along the lines of 'it's cool'.

Is there anyone out there right now, before taking up smoking, that's thinking along the lines of 'I need a new addiction, and nicotine fits that bill'? I doubt it. If some doctor out there thinks nicotine is a great alternative to some other medication, great, then a doctor considered all the alternatives and rendered a decision.

I would absolutely defend anyone's right to do this should they choose to do so, but I'd at least recommend they don't.

 

[Quasarsphere]

Is there anyone out there right now, before taking up smoking, that's thinking along the lines of 'I need a new addiction, and nicotine fits that bill'? I doubt it.

I don't know about right now, but my colleague took up smoking in his early 30s for that very reason.

Yeah, bit of a muppet, eh?

 

[ladyraj]

I must confess that I am troubled by the myriad of posts on the forum regarding the benefits of nicotine via the PV as a mood smoother, thought clarifier, energy boosting, anxiety reducing, weight loss accelerator, and COPD/Emphysema panacea.

If: The host of mental illness studies are true and the sufferers are "self-medicating"...
Then: There are a host of individuals that require help in daily functioning using these products...
Rather than: Individuals exercising free choice in recreation by simply using a perceived healthier smoking alternative.

Health claims of smoking cessation got the PV in trouble...how will these new health claims play out in the general public without someone alledging "unfounded" remains to be seen.

It is a slippery slope....

 

[Blackdiamonds]

I would put myself in the "non smoker" group if I was pushed to classify myself, and want to share my point of view of the issue.

I have for some 25 years plus smoked everything from cigs, clove cigs, cigars and pipes. I have no apparent "addiction" to nicotine and/or smoking in general.

I started with regular old cigs in early high school and to be honest I HATED them. I gave it a month and, despite big peer pressures otherwise, I stopped smoking them all together (not smoked one regular cig since). I moved onto clove cigs in later high school and college, but purely as a social / drinking activity. Loved the taste of cloves but never smoked more than maybe 1 pack a month at my highest "party" months.

After college, I started smoking cigars and even a pipe, during poker games, etc. It was a very occasional and social activity. I pretty well had to stop even occasional smoking of cigars and my pipe, as my wife was not at all pleased with the "smelly house" after a poker game, etc.

It's been a few years since smoking anything and when I had the craving for a good cigar a while back I got looking around the internet for any new technology that my allow me to smoke in the house without making the house smell bad to my wife. Expecting to find maybe some kind of air filter/re circulate or similar, I instead got on to the whole E Cig idea and was amazed at this new "alternative" to smoke.

E Cigs (and soon an E Cigar) have made me a very happy "none smoker" that "smokes" occasionally. I also feel that there are many, many people that are in this same category. I know my brother, who is an ER Doctor, loves to smoke the occasional cigar will be very happy to find this new alternative too.

The other issue I would bring up is the fact that even if someone was never a smoker at all was lucky enough to find E Smoking first would very much benefit from getting use to E Cigs before trying the "real thing". I truly feel that the vast majority would never stay with analog cigs or cigars, if they went from E Cigs to analogs.

 

[Kempton]

"Rather than: Individuals exercising free choice in recreation by simply using a perceived healthier smoking alternative."

That is my story and I am sticking to it!

 

[Stubby]

I must confess that I am troubled by the myriad of posts on the forum regarding the benefits of nicotine via the PV as a mood smoother, thought clarifier, energy boosting, anxiety reducing, weight loss accelerator, and COPD/Emphysema panacea.

If: The host of mental illness studies are true and the sufferers are "self-medicating"...
Then: There are a host of individuals that require help in daily functioning using these products...
Rather than: Individuals exercising free choice in recreation by simply using a perceived healthier smoking alternative.

Health claims of smoking cessation got the PV in trouble...how will these new health claims play out in the general public without someone alledging "unfounded" remains to be seen.

It is a slippery slope....

You're trying to politicize the issue, and goes to show just how the anti-tobacco activist have been successful in demonizing all nicotine use. You have to think out-side the box a bit. I'll post it again reduced harm tobacco web site

The fact is that nicotine does have benefits for many people. For those of us that use nicotine for therapeutic reasons politics is secondary. If you're going to limit yourself to what ASH may or may not approve of you have already lost the battle.

 

[tmbrown327]

Blackdiamonds point of view is valid, and I can see some (not sure about many) people going this way, but even this relatively benign practice is still switching from tobacco to vaping. I've had the occasional cigar and, if presented with an opportunity to smoke a really good one, I probably would, as that is an entirely taste based urge. I don't think many cigar afficianados would make the switch to vaping, just because of that. Vaping will, IMO, never replace that kind of intense experience. If you've never smoked, there's just no point in vaping, it's not THAT good.

Quasarsphere - Is 'muppet' the same thing as brain dead?

 

[SnuggleBunny]

it's a free country last I checked, and if someone is gonna try it, better an e-cig then a cancer stick no?

I find it funny how many people, even here have fallen for the hype, yes, hype, not facts that the anti-smoking Nazis have been spouting all these years...

I'm one that truly LOVED smoking, and for over 30 years smoked... was never able to stop until I started vaping, now look at my banner...
fact is I love the act of smoking, and now I don't have to give that up. I wish e-gigs had been there when I started, but they weren't.

trolls will be trolls, but I'm sure there are a few out there that are about to start smoking no matter what they are told... better a 510 then a coffin nail.

my 2 cents,
snuggs