Equivalent nic freebase to 20mg nic salt (in pod systems)

[Katya]

I think suppliers are either unaware or can charge higher prices because it has the 100mg/ml label we are all familiar with. However, it is 100mg/ml nicotine 'salts'.

I get that. Also, in your absence, I tried to do some research on my own, but there's very little reliable information out there about the nicotine content equivalency between freebase and salts. But I found this:

https://www.quora.com/How-are-nicotine-salts-different-than-freebase-nicotine

"Nicotine salts are produced in an acid/base reaction. For many commercial products the acid used is benzoic acid, which yields benzoic nicotine salts. Because it’s a salt compound, the effective ingredient (nicotine) is less weight-for-weight. 50mg/ml of benzoic nicotine salts is about the equivalent of 27mg/ml of freebase nicotine. It’s important to know what salt you are dealing with and the equivalent nicotine dose so that you can get the concentration right - it’s based on molecular weight."

So I get that, chemically speaking. What I still can't understand is why all manufacturers, including juul, insist on listing nicotine content in mg/ml, by weight, and not nicotine salts.

Even juul follow the chemistry (scroll down)
JUULpods and E-Liquid FAQs - JUUL Support

From your link:

How much nicotine is in a JUULpod?
Each 5% JUULpod is designed to contain approximately 0.7mL with 5% nicotine by weight (approx. 40 mg per pod based upon 59 mg/mL) at time of manufacture. Each 3% JUULpod is designed to contain approximately 0.7mL with 3% nicotine by weight (approx. 23 mg per pod based upon 35 mg/mL) at time of manufacture. Nicotine content may decrease over an extended period of time.

 

[Katya]

I got to side with Katya on this one.

Hello, Jazzman. I'm not even sure if I side with myself here.

 

[Opinionated]

Hello, Jazzman. I'm not even sure if I side with myself here.

have you made freebase side by side with salts?

I have..

Have you seen any difference outside of TH?

Me = No....no difference in strength at all..

If uninformed people start running around deciding they need to vape 40 mg salts because they use 20 mg free base, thats when people will start getting sick and end up in hospital's, all because someone wanted to look "smart" on a forum and convinced them 100 mg salts are not the equivalent strength to 100mg freebase.

 

[Vapntime]

You must not be mixing them properly, I make nicotine ditartrate and had the formula checked by a chemist.

Salt eliquids are advertised and available up to at least 50mg. Let's think about it can we actually Vape 50mg freebase? So why can we Vape 50mg nicotine salts if its absorbed better as well?

 

[Doffy]

Ignore actual figures. But the way I'm interpreting this

Milligrams is a measure of weight

If 1mg nic salts contains 10 million nic salt molecules. Then 1mg freebase might be 20 million nic molecules

I have no idea how that effects uptake or buzz. But that is the debate as I read it

 

[Opinionated]

You must not be mixing them properly, I make nicotine ditartrate and had the formula checked by a chemist.

are you telling me because there is equivalency in strength between freebase and salts that I'm not mixing correctly?

haha..

okay. You go with that then.. I mix wrong. lol..

 

[Vapntime]

are you telling me because there is equivalency in strength between freebase and salts that I'm not mixing correctly?

haha..

okay. You go with that then.. I mix wrong. lol..

Ok what is your formula then? Or are you just using the juul patent instructions/ratio for nicotine benzoate and calling it good?

 

[Opinionated]

Ok what is your formula then?

Apparently it's what the manufacturers intend when they label...

 

[Katya]

Salt eliquids are advertised and available up to at least 50mg. Let's think about it can we actually Vape 50mg freebase? So why can we Vape 50mg nicotine salts if its absorbed better as well?

I asked the very same question on June 17, 2015, in the original JUUL thread:

Another article on the Juul

"The article says: "Juice currently on the market uses freebase nicotine, but that's not how nicotine exists in the real world. "Nicotine in nature is a compound that wants to form and join with the organic acids and salts you find in tobacco leaves," Monsees explains. To that end, Pax developed a juice that's blended with nicotine salts, which supposedly delivers the drug to you in a more similar fashion to combustible cigarettes."

So my question is as follows: If Pax really developed ejuice that somewhat mimics smoking/makes the nic more (faster) bioavailable, then why did they have to up the nic concentration all the way to 50 (or 59 mg/ml)???? Shouldn't it be the other way around? If their nic is so fast working compared to the "free base" eliquids, why do we need to triple and quadruple the nicotine concentration??? "

Still waiting for an answer.

 

[Katya]

have you made freebase side by side with salts?

I have..

Have you seen any difference outside of TH?

Have you read my earlier post?

(snip)
I can only tell you from my own experience that I could never vape 24 mg/ml freebase nic, not because of harshness, but because it made me dizzy. I was feeling literally sick. But I can vape 24 mg/ml salts--not non-stop, but I can take a few hits and I'm fine.

 

[Opinionated]

Have you read my earlier post?

I've never felt a difference, not ever.

For me it's an exact equivalence between 18mg salts and 18mg freebase (I've never vaped higher than 18mg because that's what I quit on)..

Freebase doesn't give me anything different effect-wise than the same amount of salts..

 

[Vapntime]

He doesnt read posts. There is no debate. Believe me @Opinionated I don't care for ECF that much. Ring Jake at nude he might let you in on the secret haha.

 

[Opinionated]

He doesnt read posts. There is no debate. Believe me @Opinionated I don't care for ECF that much. Ring Jake at nude he might let you in on the secret haha.

I just showed u an NN label.

I don't need to know their formula for creating a 100mg/ml salt, I need to know what's in the bottle I buy. They label VERY clearly. I use the specific graveties they tell me to use.

It works the way it's intended with no difference in either strength nor absorption rate (for me, from experience). Yea!

I have no need to confuse people on the internet... everyone does not appear to share that mindset.

If you want to call Jake @NN and tell him they are lying to their customers you go right ahead.

 

[Vapntime]

I just showed u an NN label.

I don't need to know their formula for creating a 100mg/ml salt, I need to know what's in the bottle I buy. They label VERY clearly. I use the specific graveties they tell me to use.

It works the way it's intended with no difference in either strength nor absorption rate (for me, from experience). Yea!

I have no need to confuse people on the internet... everyone does not appear to share that mindset.

If you want to call Jake @NN and tell him they are lying to their customers you go right ahead.

How am I lying? If you had read the previous posts you may understand better. When did I say 100mg/ml nicotine salts is not 100mg/ml nicotine salts?

 

[Opinionated]

How am I lying? If you had read the previous posts you may understand better. When did I say 100mg/ml nicotine salts is not 100mg/ml nicotine salts?

Your saying the manufacturers are lying to their customers every single time you disagreed with every single post where I have said that 20mg/ml ejuice made with freebase nicotine is the nicotine equivalent to ejuice made with 20mg/ml nicotine salts.

This guy, the OP, is talking about going to his local vape shop and picking up a bottle of ejuice . hes not talking about manufacturing processes or how the equivalency is created.. he just wants to know what to buy..

you know.. because he wants to vape.

 

[charlie1465]

I ordered 16mg pods and nearly 'died' yesterday. I did draw very gently and only for a second or so on my pod system and I had to cough really hard. 20mg nic salts however were perfectly smooth in comparison. Next time I buy 8mg^^

It's important to realise that some of the coughing you are experiencing is as a direct result of the transition period from smoking to vaping. It made me cough for a few weeks until the smoke started to clear out of my lungs.

I suspect this is what is causing your coughing. Not the salts which are smoother than freebase. Hope that makes sense...keep trying you'll live longer

 

[Vapntime]

Your saying the manufacturers are lying to their customers every single time you disagreed with every single post where I have said that 20mg/ml ejuice made with freebase nicotine is the nicotine equivalent to ejuice made with 20mg/ml nicotine salts.

This guy, the OP, is talking about going to his local vape shop and picking up a bottle of ejuice . hes not talking about manufacturing processes or how the equivalency is created.. he just wants to know what to buy..

you know.. because he wants to vape.

I have quoted the manufacturers nicotine benzoate chemnovatic earlier in the thread, they are not hiding anything are they? Suppliers may or may not know the chemistry, is that fair? The suppliers are selling 100mg/ml nicotine salts and that's what we are buying and getting, so they are doing no wrong. Is it not buyer beware

 

[Opinionated]

The suppliers are selling 100mg/ml nicotine salts and that's what we are buying and getting, so they are doing no wrong. Is it not buyer beware.

So why disagree with me when I tell the OP that if he's buying and using 20mg salts (premade ejuice from a vape shop, known by all and sundry to be 20mg/ml) then he will, most likely, have nicotine withdrawals when trying to drop down to 8mg/ml ejuice made with freebase nicotine, because 20mg/ml is 20mg/ml in either salts or freebase?

hmmm?

I mean, he's buying store bought ejuice not manufacturing nicotine and you've gone through and disagreed with every single post I made in this thread..

 

[Vapntime]

They are two different chemicals eg:
Nicotine: C10H14N2
Nicotine ditartrate a salt made from nicotine and tartaric acid: C18H26N2O12

If I add 10ml of 100mg/ml nicotine
(1 gram nicotine) to 1.85 grams of tartaric acid for the salt reaction which is at the correct ratio for nicotine ditartrate salt, will I still have 100mg/ml nicotine or 100mg/ml nicotine salt? So, how can I add to but not decrease freebase nicotine mg/ml?

 

[Opinionated]

They are two different chemicals eg:
Nicotine: C10H14N2
Nicotine ditartrate a salt made from nicotine and tartaric acid: C18H26N2O12

If I add 10ml of 100mg/ml nicotine
(1 gram nicotine) to 1.85 grams of tartaric acid for the salt reaction which is at the correct ratio for nicotine ditartrate salt, will I still have 100mg/ml nicotine or 100mg/ml nicotine salt? So, how can I add to but not decrease freebase nicotine mg/ml?

So... you just want to pretend your smarter than other people, and avoid actually helping people who want to know what to buy from the store.

Got it.






P.S. I'm a woman so your little measuring contest is ignorant.