Evolv Technology Owners Discussion Thread

[dr g]

Did he tell you something different than he said in his E-mail response? I'm curious....He doesn't strike me as the type of guy who waffles on the specs but I don't know him personally.

No, what I have been saying is based on the concepts from Brandon (I spoke to him about this last year) and my personal experiences. Not every board performs the exact same at this end, which is why I specify estimates and ranges. As I mentioned in my first post, these boards were not designed for that end of the performance scale.

The DNA20 can go a lot lower than the DNA30 so if you are interested in low wattage regulation, the DNA20 is the way to go of the two.

Yup, it is a trivial matter. I agree with you there, and yeah you don't need to subohm a dna or any regulated device.

I'd like to revisit this quickly. You don't need to subohm a dna, true, but that's not necessarily true of other regulated devices. The reason you don't need to on a DNA is its voltage range, power range, and VW design. The DNA can "max out" its power at up to 2.3 ohms.

If you have a limited-voltage range VV regulator, you may well need to subohm to use the full range of available output current from the regulator. For example on a regulator limited to 6v, you would need to subohm to get any more than 6 amps out of it (36 watts).

 

[DavidAmonettNashville]

No, what I have been saying is based on the concepts from Brandon (I spoke to him about this last year) and my personal experiences. Not every board performs the exact same at this end, which is why I specify estimates and ranges. As I mentioned in my first post, these boards were not designed for that end of the performance scale.

The DNA20 can go a lot lower than the DNA30 so if you are interested in low wattage regulation, the DNA20 is the way to go of the two.

I'm looking into the new 20 watt DNA/Innokin chip that from what I understand has full regulation Up or Down....Should be rolling out these new chips in the SVD2.0 in early September....Very excited about this collaboration

 

[TheKiwi]

No, what I have been saying is based on the concepts from Brandon (I spoke to him about this last year) and my personal experiences. Not every board performs the exact same at this end, which is why I specify estimates and ranges. As I mentioned in my first post, these boards were not designed for that end of the performance scale.

The DNA20 can go a lot lower than the DNA30 so if you are interested in low wattage regulation, the DNA20 is the way to go of the two.



I'd like to revisit this quickly. You don't need to subohm a DNA, true, but that's not necessarily true of other regulated devices. The reason you don't need to on a DNA is its voltage range, power range, and VW design. The DNA can "max out" its power at up to 2.3 ohms.

If you have a limited-voltage range VV regulator, you may well need to subohm to use the full range of available output current from the regulator. For example on a regulator limited to 6v, you would need to subohm to get any more than 6 amps out of it (36 watts).

Edited to add some stuf.......

Wait. I don't get it.

So Brandon states explicitly that the DNA chips cannot output a voltage that is lower than the voltage of the battery under load. He even goes as far as to say that it should be 3.9ish volts minimum on a fresh batt.

But you're saying it does....?

I don't see how to reconcile that. The only way I can think of is that your batteries have excessive sag under load, which in turns allows you to fire at 3.4V, ONLY because it so happens that 3.4 V is indeed the voltage under load of your batteries.

Either that or the chip is intended to perform exactly as Brandon described (don't see why not). However somehow variations in imperfect and real life electrical components results in chips which are inherently "off-spec" and can somehow output 3.4 on a fresh batt. In that case, you still can't reasonably claim it to be an inherent feature of the chip, since it isn't (and not to mention inconsistent, since mine simply doesn't do so no matter how you insist yours does)

 

[VapDrak]

Wait. I don't get it.

So Brandon states explicitly that the DNA chips cannot output a voltage that is lower than the voltage of the battery under load. He even goes as far as to say that it should be 3.9ish volts minimum on a fresh batt.

But you're saying it does....?

I don't see how to reconcile that. The only way I can think of is that your batteries have excessive sag under load, which in turns allows you to fire at 3.4V, because it so happens that 3.4 V is indeed the voltage under load of your batteries.

Bazinga!!!

 

[EuroChris]

I'd like to revisit this quickly. You don't need to subohm a DNA, true, but that's not necessarily true of other regulated devices. The reason you don't need to on a DNA is its voltage range, power range, and VW design. The DNA can "max out" its power at up to 2.3 ohms.

If you have a limited-voltage range VV regulator, you may well need to subohm to use the full range of available output current from the regulator. For example on a regulator limited to 6v, you would need to subohm to get any more than 6 amps out of it (36 watts).

Yeah, that's true.

 

[dr g]

Edited to add some stuf.......

Wait. I don't get it.

So Brandon states explicitly that the DNA chips cannot output a voltage that is lower than the voltage of the battery under load. He even goes as far as to say that it should be 3.9ish volts minimum on a fresh batt.

But you're saying it does....?

I don't see how to reconcile that. The only way I can think of is that your batteries have excessive sag under load, which in turns allows you to fire at 3.4V, ONLY because it so happens that 3.4 V is indeed the voltage under load of your batteries.

Either that or the chip is intended to perform exactly as Brandon described (don't see why not). However somehow variations in imperfect and real life electrical components results in chips which are inherently "off-spec" and can somehow output 3.4 on a fresh batt. In that case, you still can't reasonably claim it to be an inherent feature of the chip, since it isn't (and not to mention inconsistent, since mine simply doesn't do so no matter how you insist yours does)

You're ignoring a key part of what Brandon said to you. I'd suggest re-reading Rossum's post above, and I also mentioned it earlier. There is an effect from the board itself, I personally hesitate to call it "loss" as that implies resistive (heat) loss, which AFAIK this is not. I guess you could call it voltage drop across the boost circuit.

 

[EuroChris]

You're ignoring a key part of what Brandon said to you. I'd suggest re-reading Rossum's post above, and I also mentioned it earlier. There is an effect from the board itself, I personally hesitate to call it "loss" as that implies resistive (heat) loss, which AFAIK this is not. I guess you could call it voltage drop across the boost circuit.

Whch battery do you use for your DNA devices?

 

[TheKiwi]

You're ignoring a key part of what Brandon said to you. I'd suggest re-reading Rossum's post above, and I also mentioned it earlier. There is an effect from the board itself, I personally hesitate to call it "loss" as that implies resistive (heat) loss, which AFAIK this is not. I guess you could call it voltage drop across the boost circuit.

Oh I'm not ignoring what Brandon said, at least not deliberately. Let me lay out my logic and maybe you can point out what You think is wrong.

Brandon states that a fresh battery has a voltage of 4.2V.

He then explicitly states that the minimum voltage is limited by the voltage (under load) of the battery.

He also explicitly states that because of the inherent loss DUE TO THE CIRCUIT, the voltage under load of a fresh battery drops to 3.9ish volts.

*at this point, the whole point about loss due to the circuit is already addressed.

Because there is no voltage down regulation, the current DNA chips cannot output anything lower than the voltage under load, aka 3.9ish volts. (Again, this is AFTER taking into account voltage "loss" due to circuit.

Additionally, That 3.9ish volts figure was given directly in response to my question which specified whether the chip can actually output at 3.4 to 3.5 V. The answer is no.

At this point, the only logical conclusion to why a DNA mod can fire at 3.4 V on a full charge would be:

1) some mods use components which results in approx 0.8V of "voltage loss" across the entire circuitry, resulting in an "effective" load voltage of 3.4V on a fresh battery.

You've repeatedly pointed out that actual users of the DNA chips would know it can fire lower. But I actually don't.

I've owned the zna30 (damned heavy suckers), hana v3, hana v2 and a custom made wooden box mod with a dna20 chip. The lowest I've ever been able to fire on a fresh battery is 3.7, and that was my dna20 wood mod.

2) the batteries used actually experienced approx 0.8V of voltage sag, thereby allowing you to actually fire at 3.4V.

 

[herb]

So here you go. The email exchanged copied and pasted in it's entirety, apart from edition out my name

So. Here's my email exchange with Brandon (if you're reading this then I'll just assume you know who he is )

Me:
I'm writing to enquire about certain technical aspects of the DNA chip, just for personal knowledge and my own use. I currently own 5 DNA 20 and 30 devices, and I guess I've always wondered if the chips actually have some sort of voltage down regulation? On a freshly charged battery, my mods typically cannot output anything lower than 3.7 to 3.9V before my resistance starts blinking. So yeap. Just wondering if it is because the DNA chip do not output voltages below the battery's current voltage, or there's something else in play. Hope to hear from someone soon!

Brandon:
Hi <my name lol>,
The DNA30 and 20 do not have step down (buck) capabilities. As your battery discharges, you'll be able to reach lower wattages. Our new (upcoming) products will have step down, also the Kick2 has step down.

Great question!

Thanks,
Brandon
Evolv, LLC


Me:
Hi Brandon,

Damn. Can't believe I'm getting a reply straight from you.

In any case, just wanna be clear in my understanding: when using a fresh battery, I wouldn't be able to select a wattage that requires the chip to output a voltage lower than the fresh battery's existing voltage. Eg firing an atty with a fresh battery, with a wattage setting that requires a voltage of say, 3.4 to 3.6 V. That's always been my understanding since my first dna20 mod, but I just wanna be absolutely sure.

Apologies if this sounds trivial; I figured you folks would be busy as hell but I just wanna make sure I nail down what I know about it. Have a 3rd dna30 mod incoming!

Brandon:
Hi <my name lol>,
Yes, the under load voltage is the limiting factor. So at a full charge (4.2v), you'll only be able to get down to about 3.9-ish volts. There is some loss across the circuit and it is looking at voltage under load.

Thanks,
Brandon
Evolv, LLC

After reading the above the feeling i got was wow, i'm glad that was over with , what patience he has , thank God you didn't email him for a third time but then i read the below :

My third email was kinda stupid and redundant given his first response (oh god... He's gonna think im some flaming idiot who couldn't understand simple English), but I had to be absolutely explicit in specifying the voltages we were talking about earlier.

So. That should pretty much put everything to rest.

P.s. If you actually have a fresh battery that's 3.5V under load, either something is reaaaally wrong with the cell, or it's nearing the end of it's lifespan.

Man do you have Guts lol, now i understand why calls and emails tend to go unanswered .

 

[TheKiwi]

After reading the above the feeling i got was wow, i'm glad that was over with , what patience he has , thank God you didn't email him for a third time but then i read the below :



Man do you have Guts lol, now i understand why calls and emails tend to go unanswered .

Oh oops! My mistake!! I meant my SECOND not third. I'm not that shameless to push my luck so far. I felt horrid enough after my second email. Oops!

 

[EuroChris]

Oh I'm not ignoring what Brandon said, at least not deliberately. Let me lay out my logic and maybe you can point out what You think is wrong.

Brandon states that a fresh battery has a voltage of 4.2V.

He then explicitly states that the minimum voltage is limited by the voltage (under load) of the battery.

He also explicitly states that because of the inherent loss DUE TO THE CIRCUIT, the voltage under load of a fresh battery drops to 3.9ish volts.

*at this point, the whole point about loss due to the circuit is already addressed.

Because there is no voltage down regulation, the current DNA chips cannot output anything lower than the voltage under load, aka 3.9ish volts. (Again, this is AFTER taking into account voltage "loss" due to circuit.

Additionally, That 3.9ish volts figure was given directly in response to my question which specified whether the chip can actually output at 3.4 to 3.5 V. The answer is no.

At this point, the only logical conclusion to why a DNA mod can fire at 3.4 V on a full charge would be:

1) some mods use components which results in approx 0.8V of "voltage loss" across the entire circuitry, resulting in an "effective" load voltage of 3.4V on a fresh battery.

You've repeatedly pointed out that actual users of the DNA chips would know it can fire lower. But I actually don't.

I've owned the zna30 (damned heavy suckers), hana v3, hana v2 and a custom made wooden box mod with a dna20 chip. The lowest I've ever been able to fire on a fresh battery is 3.7, and that was my dna20 wood mod.

2) the batteries used actually experienced approx 0.8V of voltage sag, thereby allowing you to actually fire at 3.4V.

First of all. Great customer support from Evolv. Answer within a day from the management is rare nowadays.

I agree with your assessment that there must be something wrong with the battery or a voltage drop in the mod.

 

[dr g]

Oh I'm not ignoring what Brandon said, at least not deliberately. Let me lay out my logic and maybe you can point out what You think is wrong.

Brandon states that a fresh battery has a voltage of 4.2V.

He then explicitly states that the minimum voltage is limited by the voltage (under load) of the battery.

He also explicitly states that because of the inherent loss DUE TO THE CIRCUIT, the voltage under load of a fresh battery drops to 3.9ish volts.

*at this point, the whole point about loss due to the circuit is already addressed.

Because there is no voltage down regulation, the current DNA chips cannot output anything lower than the voltage under load, aka 3.9ish volts. (Again, this is AFTER taking into account voltage "loss" due to circuit.

Additionally, That 3.9ish volts figure was given directly in response to my question which specified whether the chip can actually output at 3.4 to 3.5 V. The answer is no.

At this point, the only logical conclusion to why a DNA mod can fire at 3.4 V on a full charge would be:

1) some mods use components which results in approx 0.8V of "voltage loss" across the entire circuitry, resulting in an "effective" load voltage of 3.4V on a fresh battery.

You've repeatedly pointed out that actual users of the DNA chips would know it can fire lower. But I actually don't.

I've owned the zna30 (damned heavy suckers), hana v3, hana v2 and a custom made wooden box mod with a dna20 chip. The lowest I've ever been able to fire on a fresh battery is 3.7, and that was my dna20 wood mod.

2) the batteries used actually experienced approx 0.8V of voltage sag, thereby allowing you to actually fire at 3.4V.

I'm just going to say that logic doesn't give the correct answer when it's flawed. It has been repeatedly explained to you why the results are what they are. Don't get hung up on the specific numbers Brandon gave you, remember this is the guy that has 4.0v minimum on his spec sheet. He doesn't really bother with the specifics of what the chip does at that end of its performance range.

The specific number doesn't matter, many things can affect it including the battery type, battery charge cycle life, and the specific chip being measured. The point is it's lower than the battery under load because of the voltage drop across the board itself. So it is neither true that DNAs can't regulate below battery voltage nor that they can't regulate below 4v.

3.7v on a DNA20 on a fresh battery is 0.5v lower than static voltage, which is more than simple load drop at low wattage. As I mentioned earlier, I have had DNA20s down below 3v which is below battery cut-off.

 

[BlueSnake]

I've been following this discussion. I got my first DNA30 mod yesterday.

I'm currently vaping an Aerotank with a 1.2ohm coil. The battery indicator is showing below half discharged. I just ran the wattage down to see what it would do. It regulated down to 8.7 watts firing 3.4 volts. If I currently go below 8.7 watts the ohms start flashing and it fires on current battery voltage.

So I would have to agree that depending on the state of the battery and the ohms on the coil that the DNA30 is capable of regulating well below 4 volts.

 

[slappy3139]

The DNA30 chip does not down regulate, it can't, cause it has no buck circuitry, it only regulates up, if your wattage setting is too low of a voltage (ie. Lower than the current voltage under load) your resistance value on the display will flash letting you know that your wattage setting is too low for the current battery voltage. As your battery discharges the DNA30 can regulate to lower wattages because the battery voltage is dropping, not because the DNA can down regulate

 

[slappy3139]

I'm just going to say that logic doesn't give the correct answer when it's flawed. It has been repeatedly explained to you why the results are what they are. Don't get hung up on the specific numbers Brandon gave you, remember this is the guy that has 4.0v minimum on his spec sheet. He doesn't really bother with the specifics of what the chip does at that end of its performance range.

The specific number doesn't matter, many things can affect it including the battery type, battery charge cycle life, and the specific chip being measured. The point is it's lower than the battery under load because of the voltage drop across the board itself. So it is neither true that DNAs can't regulate below battery voltage nor that they can't regulate below 4v.

3.7v on a DNA20 on a fresh battery is 0.5v lower than static voltage, which is more than simple load drop at low wattage. As I mentioned earlier, I have had DNA20s down below 3v which is below battery cut-off.

It's really simple, either it can, or it can't regulate voltage down, according to evolv, it cant, case closed.

 

[Rossum]

Empirical: DNA-30 bottom feeder. Freshly charged VTC5. 1.0 ohm coil in the atty. In-line meter between mod and atty. Set to 7.0 watts. Press fire button. DNA claimed 3.8V. In-line meter showed 3.65.

Now let's look at the simplest boost regulator circuit:

And let's assume we have a perfect 4.2V Supply -- one that has NO sag under load. Let's also assume that we have superconducting wires with zero drop everywhere except the inductor. For $50 (the retail price of a DNA-30), Alex, what voltage does the load see if we never turn on the switch?

Hint: It isn't 4.2V.

 

[BlueSnake]

The DNA30 chip does not down regulate, it can't, cause it has no buck circuitry, it only regulates up, if your wattage setting is too low of a voltage (ie. Lower than the current voltage under load) your resistance value on the display will flash letting you know that your wattage setting is too low for the current battery voltage. As your battery discharges the DNA30 can regulate to lower wattages because the battery voltage is dropping, not because the DNA can down regulate

OK I guess I stated it wrong. It's boosting up from the current state of the battery and coil. So in my case it was starting at 8.7 watts which resulted in regulated (boosted) vaping at 3.4 volts. As I moved the wattage up it would go to 3.5 and so on. So no it was no down regulating, but given the conditions of battery charge and load the DNA30 chip can regulate well below 4 volts.

 

[Fegbri]

OK I guess I stated it wrong. It's boosting up from the current state of the battery and coil. So in my case it was starting at 8.7 watts which resulted in regulated (boosted) vaping at 3.4 volts. As I moved the wattage up it would go to 3.5 and so on. So no it was no down regulating, but given the conditions of battery charge and load the DNA30 chip can regulate well below 4 volts.

I don't think you understand. If you have a fresh battery at 4.2v , and you WANTED to vape at 3.5 volts on the DNA30, can you?? I believe the answer is NO.

 

[dr g]

I don't think you understand. If you have a fresh battery at 4.2v , and you WANTED to vape at 3.5 volts on the DNA30, can you?? I believe the answer is NO.

You can't vape at 14v if you wanted to either but so what? The specific voltages are moot, you just have to know what your mod is capable of and build accordingly.

 

[XJ-linux]

Like any mod or chip, it's only as capable as its battery.