FDA regs worst case scenario?

[zapped]

Zapped: its less about assuming benevolence, its a desire to give the benefit of the doubt. Simple reality is that scientific evidence IS out on our hobby, whether we like it or not. I agree that heavy-handed tactics have been tried -- and were misguided -- this can't be denied; but that doesn't mean that past mistakes can't be rectified. I prefer to hope for positive solutions; but prepare for negative ones.

Youre already fighting a losing battle by giving them something that they havent given us. Sounds like were pretty much in agreement here except for the optimism.

I had a 15k dollar shipment seized and destroyed by them and was then given a bill for 800 bucks for them destroying my stuff so you'll forgive me, Im sure, if I dont share that opinion.

 

[corruption42]

Youre already fighting a losing battle by giving them something that they havent given us. Sounds like were pretty much in agreement here except for the optimism.

I had a 15k dollar shipment seized and destroyed by them and was then given a bill for 800 bucks for them destroying my stuff so you'll forgive me, Im sure, if I dont share that opinion.

Fair enough -- I can't say I've been stuck in such a situation, so I can't speak to it. As to the rest; largely, yes we are in agreement -- I just hope for the best in people and plan for the worst... I find its easier to deal with an often otherwise bleak world as such. You know I value your opinion's zapped; we don't have to agree on all aspects for that to be the case.

 

[zapped]

Fair enough -- I can't say I've been stuck in such a situation, so I can't speak to it. As to the rest; largely, yes we are in agreement -- I just hope for the best in people and plan for the worst... I find its easier to deal with an often otherwise bleak world as such. You know I value your opinion's zapped; we don't have to agree on all aspects for that to be the case.

Same here Corruption, Ive found your posts insightful and intelligent on a broad range of subjects.I really hope Im wrong here for than just myself.

Its a sad world we live in when people have to fight their own government for something thats good and decent and better than any other alternative before it just for that light to shine.

 

[IntelligentDesigner]

Taxation will come as tobacco payments grow smaller. I think our government realizes that they need to share the load between competing products to keep money flowing.

Regulation could be good for the vaper if done in a fair manner. I would like to know that my juice is ALL USP grade, not just the nic component. But, when you look at juice recipes, most are made from USP grade ingredients anyway. PG, VG, Nic, and flavoring are already controlled by the FDA. If vendors are using USP approved ingredients, we should be in good shape.

Actual testing (with an open mind) of the safety of vaping might be reassuring to all. We believe that vaping is safe and is certainly better for us than tobacco smoke. But, do we know what 40 years of vaping actually does to our body and can we expect to have lungs the same as a non-user after vaping for decades? Few things are guaranteed. At this point in my life, I just want something safer than smoking and I think vaping fits the bill.

Very well said, good sir!

Ok here is some truth, regardless this will happen soon enough,

we have 3 major interests we will be dealing with I will try to explain best i can.
1 is big tobacco it stands to lose revenue with decreasing sales this will result in their federal tax liability and corporate taxes being reduced
2 is big Pharma who also stands to lose big in the smoke cessation product industry this to will result in them paying less taxes due to lost revinue.

Insurance companies, big tobacco, and big pharma have room and capital to jump on the band wagon and should. The money those guys have in their back pockets right this moment to invest in vaporizing nicotine and countless other drugs could go a long long way in the development of the technology. And there is a lot of potential for return on these investments.

 

[GrimRep_er]

I'm actually a bit relieved coming into this thread.

It seems most are concerned about the regulation/taxation of vaping. I'd stick around even if I did have to pay more to do it.

My real concern would be an outright ban on E-cigarretes, as they would call it.

Some developed countries have done this already, I don't know if I'd expect this in the US but I certainly couldn't rule anything out anymore.

The government seems to have an alarming interest in things that really go outside its real purpose.

Kids can't bring candy to school on Halloween, they have to bring fruit and other unfun stuff. In NY you can't buy a Big Gulp.

Vaping is relatively new and has momentum. Big tabacco doesn't like it, the FDA doesn't like it, and I'm worried the nanny state we have become may make "the right decision" on my behalf.

I'm not trying to sound like a crazy alarmist, but you really can't rule anything out.

It seems these days, anything that can be regulated...IS!

Or worse yet, banned.

 

[Clearo-Mizer]

My point is ..

We live in a global World .. major companies like what you are talking about, are marketing the product outside the USA because they know that's where the growth market is .. the PV is not a smoking cessation product, and trust me, you don't want it to be ..

And I just thought I would clarify your understanding when it comes to taxation .. and just to be clear, I'm fine with taxing the PV .. since most like to tout the so called "health benefits" .. who cares if buying one costs a little more .. after all, it's all about the health, right .. ??

I agree with you 100% i dont sweat the taxing if it comes to that...but i do fear the banning that could result from lobbying tobacco...hopefully they will jump on the bandwagon since the tobacco used to derive vaping nicotine could offset the losses,
regardless i got enough juice to last a year or so anyway

 

[darkhood]

I'm actually a bit relieved coming into this thread.

It seems most are concerned about the regulation/taxation of vaping. I'd stick around even if I did have to pay more to do it.

My real concern would be an outright ban on E-cigarretes, as they would call it.

Some developed countries have done this already, I don't know if I'd expect this in the US but I certainly couldn't rule anything out anymore.

The government seems to have an alarming interest in things that really go outside its real purpose.

Kids can't bring candy to school on Halloween, they have to bring fruit and other unfun stuff. In NY you can't buy a Big Gulp.

Vaping is relatively new and has momentum. Big tabacco doesn't like it, the FDA doesn't like it, and I'm worried the nanny state we have become may make "the right decision" on my behalf.

I'm not trying to sound like a crazy alarmist, but you really can't rule anything out.

It seems these days, anything that can be regulated...IS!

Or worse yet, banned.

I don't think they'll ban e-cigs, there's way too much $ to be made as I've said before. They'll gain nothing from decimating an entire industry and despite big tobacco's influence on the FDA (don't deny it) there's more to be gained from taxing the juice than banning it outright. And that's what it's all about here... For me it's more a case of our gov't controling every facet of our lives (like you're hinting at here)... See: Totalitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[boog]

my speculation is that the FDA will "deem" juice containing nicotine as a tobacco product - which might make internet sales unlawful.
also probably have something to do with making sure all sales are to people 18+..

I've got 4 liters of nic stashed, I should be good for ~8 years

 

[corruption42]

my speculation is that the FDA will "deem" juice containing nicotine as a tobacco product - which might make internet sales unlawful.
also probably have something to do with making sure all sales are to people 18+..

I've got 4 liters of nic stashed, I should be good for ~8 years

Other side of the coin though -- cigars don't have the online sales restrictions that cigarettes do. Why couldn't they fall into a similar classification there, potentially?

We'll just say I'm playing 'devils advocate' here -- I don't know that I actually think thats the way things would go.

 

[GrimRep_er]

I don't think they'll ban e-cigs, there's way too much $ to be made as I've said before. They'll gain nothing from decimating an entire industry and despite big tobacco's influence on the FDA (don't deny it) there's more to be gained from taxing the juice than banning it outright. And that's what it's all about here... For me it's more a case of our gov't controling every facet of our lives (like you're hinting at here)... See: Totalitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I hope you're right, but the government doesn't always look at it this way. Look at the alcohol industry, they don't want any competition, and I'll respect forum rules, but their is a less harmful alternative in my opinion. Sadly, that's not a choice I'm permitted to make.

I completely agree that the nanny state mentality of the government is REALLY troubling and annoying. What I do, eat, or drink should not be a concern of the gov.

We're adults. We should be free to make decisions on our own behalf, so long as we're not harming or infringing on the rights of others.

 

[boog]

Other side of the coin though -- cigars don't have the online sales restrictions that cigarettes do. Why couldn't they fall into a similar classification there, potentially?

We'll just say I'm playing 'devils advocate' here -- I don't know that I actually think thats the way things would go.

sir, just my speculation. (I also used the word "might")

I don't want ANY kind of regulation tbqh.


ETA: the OP wanted thoughts on "worst case scenario"

 

[D4rk50ul]

I think we all would be OK with government acceptance and fair regulation as it keeps vaping safe for all. The fear is of the all out ban being imposed without scientific data to back it up.

Worst case is a ban or a medical classification that allows only pharmy companies to sell vaping gear at ridiculous prices that require a doctors prescription. That most likely is their end game as they would rake in cash both on the medical end as well as insurance premiums.

As of right now personally I'm just getting ready to defend my right to a healthier alternative and waiting, no reason to jump the gun.

Sent from my Nexus 4

 

[corruption42]

sir, just my speculation. (I also used the word "might")

I don't want ANY kind of regulation tbqh.

I largely agree with you -- but I was mostly trying to stoke the flames of conversation

 

[darkhood]

I hope you're right, but the government doesn't always look at it this way. Look at the alcohol industry, they don't want any competition, and I'll respect forum rules, but their is a less harmful alternative in my opinion. Sadly, that's not a choice I'm permitted to make.

I completely agree that the nanny state mentality of the government is REALLY troubling and annoying. What I do, eat, or drink should not be a concern of the gov.

We're adults. We should be free to make decisions on our own behalf, so long as we're not harming or infringing on the rights of others.

Right but that 'other thing' is part of the whole war on...those substances....which they have to keep fighting for various reasons I won't get into here. It also carries a certain stigma and stereotypes (due to movies like fast times etc) so its harder to advocate for - also in order to have that option you need to repeal a law which in this country is almost impossible. Just completely diff't IMO. But ya the whole issue is or gov't's intrusiveness into our everyday lives and the personal choices we make (goes towards the illusion of freedom in this country and their ingenious brainwashing propaganda lol).

 

[DaveP]

I'm not worried about taxation of vaping juices. It's a fact of life that taxation is the government's way of financing the programs they support and controlling and regulating things that "could" be hazardous. I'm also not against government inspection of things related to vaping. I want to know that I'm not inhaling vapor from a mechanical product containing heated lead components or liquids that contain unsafe ingredients. It would be a shame for such a good product to be tainted by careless design and manufacture.

I gripe like everyone else when taxes are thrown my way in amounts that I consider to be overly high. I griped silently as I paid $8 to park my car in the Coliseum Centreplex to take my great nephews to the Ringling Brothers circus a couple of weeks ago. I gripe when I think about 48 cents per gallon fuel tax (federal and state combined), but I like it when roads are maintained in good shape.

We have to pay our way in society to gain acceptance, control the dangerous materials, and have various things paid for by government for the common good. We all think that vaping is completely safe, but we wonder about Chinese products and whether they contain things we need to know about.

There's also the replacement of taxes from the tobacco settlement that government has become accustomed to collecting. As more people quit smoking, government will transition those taxes to the replacement product, which is vaping liquids. We can DIY or we can pay the tax. I don't care if my bottle of juice has an extra dollar attached for Uncle Sam and my state tax collectors. At least I'll know it will be around for me to buy instead of being outlawed. It's a small price to pay for security in vaping. Along with that will come regulation to ensure that the people who pay the tax are getting a product that is safer than smoking and contains nothing that will kill the people who pay the tax.

 

[Agorizer]

Of course, without taxation / or stealing using your term .. we would be driving on dirt roads, bridges would be pay as you cross, old folks would have no safety net, the poor would go hungry .. etc ..

...and without slavery the crops will never be picked. The point of my addition to your list is that we can never seem to see beyond the currant paradigm untill it is breached---and we conveniently forget older ways of doing things that have worked without confiscation/force being applied. Before the "Great Society" was started, "poverty" was declining at a regular pace. Since, it has stagnated.
ps: I would gladly pay to cross a bridge if I wanted to get to the other side. If there was no monopoly on bridge building monies, I'd be willing to bet that another bridge would be built if the "original" was either too cost prohibitive or unsafe. (Yes, gov't approved bridges are sometimes unsafe--remember?)

 

[zapped]

I just spoke to a Chinese vendor who assures me that FDA regulations wont stop them from shipping 100mg nicotine. Id prefer American but if thats the only option available.........

 

[fe_chef]

plan for a worst case scenario:

1) stock up on flavored juices to tide me over for at least 6-12 months
2) stock up on 100mg nic base. distribute into multiple bottles. wrap in foil to keep out any light and toss them into one big freezer bag and store long term.
3) resume ordering flavored 0mg base and nic_mix!

if that fails, then its off to silkroad hehe

 

[IntelligentDesigner]

Bumping this back up a couple pages as it was on my mind yesterday.

If they do regulate nic juice and stuff, do you guys think the majority of suppliers will start putting additives aside from PG, VG, flavor, and nicotine in the juice to increase the shelf life of mass produced stuff? Or protect the coloring and flavor? Or for God knows what other stupid reasons they added all that crap to tobacco?

I'm kinda positive that nobody would buy it since we're used to the mixes we have already. But it's just kind of a concern that the good simple stuff will be more expensive not just because it's being taxed more, but because they have to compete more with mass production. I'm also somewhat concerned that the easily accessible stuff will start getting additives we don't want. Hell, some juices already have alcohol and whatever it is in cinnamon stuff that eats plastic tanks. How good could that possibly be to be vaping?

 

[Absintheur]

Worse case?

The new FDA e-cigarette regulation book...