Who are they?
http://www.change.org/petitions/con...arsh-restrictions-on-e-cigarettes-or-e-liquid
FDA Petition and news links.
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Who are they?
http://www.change.org/petitions/con...arsh-restrictions-on-e-cigarettes-or-e-liquid
FDA Petition and news links.
Oh yeah and the poor might actually have to get a job. God forbid!!
I think the nature of taxing makes ecigs very appealing to the government but that must be approved by congress. Due to the complexity of nic juice and DIY it will make for a complicated law, taking years to write and effectively put into full force. Fingers crossed.
Okay as far as a worst case scenario from the FDA would be a ban on juice. I honestly think trying to ban the PVs themselves is impossible. There are simply to many DIY mods out there so people already have the skills to build mods.
As to what I think is really going to happen: 1. Age restriction (18+ to buy), 2. USP requirement on juice ingredients, 3. Lab/manufacture inspections, 4. probably some licensing scheme, 5. Child proof storage requirements.
There may or may not be a ban on internet sales. Cigarettes for example cannot be sold over the internet, but pipe tobacco, cigars, dip, chew and snus all can be sold. There also may or may not be an advertisement ban as far as radio and TV goes.
As to taxation...well the government can only tax those things which can be bought and sold legally. So whether or not PVs are safe or not (and I don't want to get into that argument in this thread I've already posted my thoughts on safety) is irrelevant. The government simply has too much to loose through a ban because smoking rates are declining and they are going to want a new tax stream.
As to what I think is really going to happen: 1. Age restriction (18+ to buy), 2. USP requirement on juice ingredients, 3. Lab/manufacture inspections, 4. probably some licensing scheme, 5. Child proof storage requirements.
There may or may not be a ban on internet sales. Cigarettes for example cannot be sold over the internet, but pipe tobacco, cigars, dip, chew and snus all can be sold. There also may or may not be an advertisement ban as far as radio and TV goes.
As to taxation...well the government can only tax those things which can be bought and sold legally. So whether or not PVs are safe or not (and I don't want to get into that argument in this thread I've already posted my thoughts on safety) is irrelevant. The government simply has too much to loose through a ban because smoking rates are declining and they are going to want a new tax stream.
E-cigs will NEVER be banned outright! This being the lesser of "two evils" (the other being tobacco), there's no way a ban on e-cigs will ever happen. Think about this and let's consider some history: alcohol was banned, ban repealed, assault weapons were banned, ban repealed. And if you do some research, check out this link that applies to my list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(insert the spelling for the illegal smoking material here, using an "h" instead of a "j")_Tax_Act_of_1937 Also, and most importantly, if tobacco products haven't been banned, there's no possible way government could rationalize the banning of e-cigs.
As others have posted, it's all about tax revenue. Cash, cheese, bucks, Benjamins, green, bones, clams, cheddar, dough
...the stuff that makes the world go 'round! BT and BP have seen that there is money to be made in the e-cig market and they want their piece of the pie. I highly believe that in the near future we will see BT enter the market with Marlboro, Salem, Camel, etc. brand juices from their respective manufacturers. Same goes for BP, Nicorette e-juices and the like.I would speculate that BP and BT are behind the FDA inquires into the e-cig industry. Most likely all of this will lead to more taxation and regulations on e-cigs. This is inevitable! If the history of capitalism and our government finding a way to tax a product has taught us anything and there's money to be made on any product, the government is going to make sure they get some of the proceeds with taxation.
I am going to make a very bold prediction! E-cigs will never be banned, period!
--There will be added taxes and regulations (eventually, but as Unc said, "Due to the complexity of nic juice and DIY it will make for a complicated law, taking years to write and effectively put into full force." And I must emphasize the part of taking years, as slow as our congress moves, these taxes and regulations will take at the very least 5 years to enact).
--We will pay more for our e-juice...someday.
--Vaping will become more mainstream with the publicity of a possible tax. This will be reported in the media and by vaping advocates giving vaping a much larger profile than it has now. The vaping community will grow and even though there will higher taxes, this will even out in the long run due to a highly competitive market, such as it is now (being competitive).
As I see it, all of these inquiries by the FDA are a good thing. They will lead to more comprehensive studies on the effects of vaping and quite even possible advances in the quality of e-cig products. The "Chicken-Little" proclamations being made about vaping are IMVHO, "Much Ado About Nothing". I'm not minimizing anyone's concerns by any means nor am I saying they are over reacting, but in essence, I believe the "proverbial hammer" is not going to fall as hard as some may believe.
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Two bills were introduced in the Senate in January to tax "other tobacco products". They are waiting for the FDA deeming regulations.
The FDA does not have to ban e cigs. They only have to approve a design, ala Blu and Njoy, with non refillable carts restricted to a couple of flavors like tobacco or menthol and no more than 4mg nic to do their damage to the hobbyist. The average Joe won't notice anything new. The hobbyist is the user that buys the mods and the bottled juice, in most cases.
If they do the above they don't need to ban internet sales as every gas station and convenience store already sells Blu and Njoy. Inspection of manufacturing labs for the carts is a given. Advertising I'm not sure about, probably depends on the alphabet soup agencies and how much of a hullabaloo they raise about it.
The Senate already has two tax bills introduced to take care of the taxation, just waiting for the FDA to do their deeming.
Hmmm, I didn't know this. Could you provide a link or guide me to where this information is? Thanks
I would like to see links for these bills assuming they have been introduced into the relevant committees. Introduced bills are a matter of public record.
I would hardly call myself a "hobbyist" vaper, and I do use bottled juices. I think the FDA would have a hard time only approving a 4mg nicotine level too. That would make 1mL the equivalent of 4 "full flavor" analog cigarettes and impossible to regulate without also banning all sales of nicotine base. (which means that bath tub chemists will pop up over night)
All of this said, assuming that there is already tax bill drafts in the works, the FDA would be cutting their nose off to spite their face to ban PVs or juices. As I said the scenario I laid out is the most likely one. Why is that? Because that is the option that opens juice and PVs to the greatest taxation. And governments love to put taxes on things.
Never mind the fact that in order to prevent DIY mods from being made they would have to ban the sale of nichrome wire (not going to happen) solder (also not going to happen) and batteries (again not going to happen). Even if the FDA only approves one type of mod (likely a cig-alike) there is no regulation to stop people from building their own mods anyway. The know-how base is already there, and the components are impossible to ban.
As for DIY juice they would have to ban the sale of PG, VG, Flavorings (all of which they won't do--too many cosmetic and culinary applications) and Nicotine base liquid (which will just drive that into the realm of bath tub nic base).
If anything a ban would be impossible to enforce. Writing a law or a regulation is one thing--actually enforcing it is quite different. As everyone should know from experience prohibition doesn't work. If there is a demand for something, someone will satisfy it. So which makes more sense from a social perspective: a legal regulated and taxed industry, or turning it over to the criminal elements?
There's also the replacement of taxes from the tobacco settlement that government has become accustomed to collecting. As more people quit smoking, government will transition those taxes to the replacement product, which is vaping liquids. We can DIY or we can pay the tax. I don't care if my bottle of juice has an extra dollar attached for Uncle Sam and my state tax collectors. At least I'll know it will be around for me to buy instead of being outlawed. It's a small price to pay for security in vaping. Along with that will come regulation to ensure that the people who pay the tax are getting a product that is safer than smoking and contains nothing that will kill the people who pay the tax.
'Cut' & 'paste' from the communist manifesto. Just saying.
I agree with that completely, except I don't think they will restrict the level to 4mg. Niether does Lorilard or they wouldn't be spending so much money to get Blu's out. No smoker is going to switch to 4mg, I'm at 5 and it was tough cutting down from 12, I had to take it in 3-4 steps. So a level of 4 would kill the Blu's and Njoy's(for which ever company that buys them)
I think that it is very possible that nic base will be restricted similar to what they did to internet cigarette sales, but that will take legislation. There are enough anti smoking zealots to introduce such a bill, and no one wants to be seen as soft on cigarettes/tobbaco (It's all about the kids!) They can't get rid of Flavorings, but they can and very possibly will make it impossible to sell the flavoring if it contains nicotine. Again, all it would take is legislation that says e cigs and ejuice are now covered under the PACT act and the whole cottage industry is effectively wiped out. This won't happen in April imo, but it is a very likely future in a couple of years.
It all comes down to your state, I live in NYC and paid $13 for a pack of Newports. Some states hardly tax for tobacco products and some grossly over taxed with the sham of "it'll make people quit".
Just like a store in NYC that sold loose tobacco and had a machine for you to roll it up in the store, the city argued even though it wasn't a actual pack, it ends up being rolled and doesnt have a NY state seal on it or get taxed so the city is losing money.
Just like a store in NYC that sold loose tobacco and had a machine for you to roll it up in the store, the city argued even though it wasn't a actual pack, it ends up being rolled and doesnt have a NY state seal on it or get taxed so the city is losing money.
I just want to mention that I hate my government and look forward to the days it is ground into a fine ash and flushed down the toilet.
100% in agreement!
Our govt is interested in controlling every aspect of our lives! Whether it be our choice to vape, own guns, eat the foods we enjoy or spend our time the way we prefer to spend it.
We've all let our govt become too heavily influenced by corporate greed. We are losing our freedoms and Constitutional rights by the day and no one has more to gain from this than Corporate America. They will not stop until they own and control everything we buy, own and use!
The corporations already own and control all of the food (and the land for growing it) and all of the clean water....they are devising plans now to own and control the very air we breathe...
Why on Earth should we ever give them the benefit of the doubt? Giving them the benefit of the doubt and believing they are only trying to serve our best interests is what got us this far under their control!
Cigars don't have the same restrictions because they are not yet regulated by the FDA.
But cigars ARE going to be part of the "deeming regulations" along with electronic cigarettes.
This is why the cigar industry is up in arms about the coming regulations.
And why they have introduced a bill in Congress to be excluded from the coming regulations.
Hmmm, I didn't know this. Could you provide a link or guide me to where this information is? Thanks
Guess you missed it when it was posted in here;
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-cigs-if-fda-determines-tobacco-product.html
Link to the bills: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-cigs-if-fda-determines-tobacco-product.html These were posted in this forum February 9, 2013.
My definition of hobbyist is generally the vaper who is active in ECF, buys or builds mods, buys bottled juice or makes his own and is not using Blu or Njoy type e cigs. We are the minority vapers. The majority of users out there are getting them at the gas store, the convenience store and they are cig alikes with carts. I'm sorry if the term annoys you, we are what we are.
We have a lot of recorded history in the ECF and CASAA of fighting the FDA and various proposed legislation that puts vapers in danger of being unable to get ecigs, of being punitively taxed, of being unable to vape in ones own domicile if it is not a detached dwelling, etc. Most of this comes directly from the FDA's massive and enduring lies about what an ecig contains, illegal funding from the CDC to foster new laws and regulations at the local, county and state level and the rest comes from the alphabet soup agencies functioning as shills for the pharmaceutical corps, and funded by them.
The FDA has an axe to grind here. They were seizing shipments at the ports not all that long ago and were only stopped by a lawsuit in Federal Court. They appealed twice and lost, until very recently they were toying with the idea of going higher. That seems to have fallen by the wayside, they have decided now to rid themselves of these pesky ecigs by regulation. The FDA is allowed by law to regulate 'other tobacco products' and that is what deeming regulations mean. Those will totally be decided by the FDA alone in its glory as the supposed watchdog over public health. Now we all know that the FDA cares not a fig about public health, it is beholden to its real clients, pharmaceuticals and the other industries that fall under its purview. The FDA will do as it pleases unless stopped by the Congress. With the financial and political corruption in the Congress that's a dim hope indeed.
Anyone so inclined and technically proficient enough can make a mod. We can DIY e liquid as long as we can source nic, which should not be a problem. Those things are a given. If you are only concerned about yourself, fear not.
I am concerned about the 400,000 people a year who will not get the message that e cigs can save their lives, and not be able to quit smoking tobacco due to the reduced nic in 'approved' e cigs. I am afraid their failure rates at that level of nic in a form factor that has a battery that craps out in a couple of hours will deter them from successfully making that change. Not to mention the costs of them both now (ridiculous for what they get) and then when heavily taxed.
The FDA isn't going to prohibit ecigs, they are going to regulate the nic level and form factor so it reduces the ability of people to use them to quit smoking tobacco cigarettes economically and easily. Their masters in pharmaceuticals demand it, they need the money from smokers disease drugs that won't be selling as well when so many have quit putting themselves in danger by making the switch.
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