Getting paid for reviews???

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jesta

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I agree with a ton of the sentiment here, but this is just how internet marketing works and regardless of how hard you try to avoid it, shills sneaks in sometimes. The biggest problem right now I feel though is that people will base a decision solely off of a single source or thread of information, without comparing their own personal preferences to that of the people writing all the information.

Compare it to movies or food, occasionally you'll find a critic that you really agree with on multiple occasions. Those are the kind of critics that you can really follow along with and (hopefully) find more things you'd enjoy by reading their reviews. The food network and papers (think siskel and ebert) all have established "personalities" that people, occasionally you'll relate your tastes to one, and be able to follow along with their reviews to hopefully discover things you enjoy.

The problem right now is that the reviewers that do constant reviews are few and far between, and are scattered across the internet across various sources. Each different community out there related to vaping seems to have it's own personal preferences when it comes to vendors they prefer and juices they like. I've been pretty active in the /r/electronic_cigarette subreddit and I see a dominant presence for a few vendors that I rarely see mentioned or reviewed here. It also goes the other way as well, and I've heard about vendors here that I've never seen mentioned on reddit.

Another problem we run into is that sometimes it's hard to tell someone shilling for a product apart from someone who's just incredibly happy and excited about their most recent purchase. People (myself included) get really excited when they find a product they like, which makes their review almost seem staged. All the sudden everything's wonderful about the vendor/juice they've tried and they want to shout from the mountain tops and profess their love. The only problem is, your taste isn't the same as their taste.

It's an incredibly hard problem to tackle. I've been studying the community for about a month now and trying to find the best ways to solve some of the problems I see. So far, the best approach I've come up with is to crowdsource the reviews and have an arbitrary rating assigned based on the user's opinion of the juice. This presents it's own set of problems, because if no one tries a specific flavor, it's under-represented in the system.

I think the ultimate goal within the community should be to have tons of "personalities", grouped by their preferences on flavors (tobacco, sweet, rich, etc), and be able to follow along via social media to see what these people like. I've really enjoyed reading through the NET thread and watching everyone discuss different tobacco flavors, and I think I may have found a few new things I'd like to order and try out. I've spent so much on juices alone and probably 1/2 of the flavors I own now, I'm not a huge fan of. I plan on vaping it forward, sending these off to others to try, hoping they'll find things they like as well.
 
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Caridwen

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Well that's bull.... I think 100% ecf needs to require these "testers" to disclose if they are in direct communication (cahoots, if you will) with the vendor. I'm sorry but taking free stuff makes you BIAS, in my book. And I feel like I have a right to know.

Do you know how ticked off I am that I have invested the time I have, reading these threads of "opinions" trying to navigate through an ocean of ejuice choices and for a new vaper like me its really overwhelming. So I come on here seeking a little help from people who have been there done that, but NOPE apparently its perfectly fair to let a bunch of sneaky salesfolk infiltrate and masquerade as if they were just regular people. NOT COOL ECF.

Seriously, if you are getting free .... from a vendor.. I want to know about it. And I want a little star by your name so I can know upfront you're being bribed and your opinion doesn't count. (to me) THAT'S FAIR. What's UNFAIR is being led to believe all this positive feedback is coming from people who have actually bought things with their own money and THEN decided they were great.

This is a sad day.

Believe me, half of our time on this forum is keeping that line between supplier/vendor and member. That's why each and every person that has any sort of association, potential association with a supplier or sales has to let us know up front what that association is or they're banned from the forum. We don't even allow posts about potential businesses, that is not what our forum is about. This doesn't make us popular, but we want a member to know that if they are asking for advice about a pv or equipment or what liquid to buy they get an honest answer and not from someone that has a financial gain.

We do have the disclaimer in the reviews for this reason. Short of not allowing any reviewers or bloggers on this board, that's really all we can do. There is no way for us to know if a reviewer was given a bottle of liquid from the supplier. An honest reviewer/blogger will state if they were given the product (many do). Some even state if they purchased the item themselves.

Best thing to do (aside from taking all reviews with a grain of salt) ask them.
 

minigoat

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My #1 thing is... I only review something publicly if I like it.

If I dislike a product a vendors sends me... or even if I dislike a juice that I buy... I tend to give the vendor feedback directly.

Praise in public, criticize in private - works for more than just juice and product reviews
 

lasttango

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The biggest problem right now I feel though is that people will base a decision solely off of a single source or thread of information, without comparing their own personal preferences to that of the people writing all the information.

and I agree... I think this is how hype gets so hyped!
 

paleodian

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I'm glad this thread was started, because I seem to have so much to say about it...

I could be wrong, but my perception is that right now, we have more newer members than ever.

Seems that the 2013 born on dates are all over the place and being new... you folks have questions and are seeing some things for the first time etc...

I can't stress this enough - don't run out and buy juice based on "hype" alone.

Many new vapers in particular, go through a sort of manic euphoria when they start vaping. I am not sure what brings it on... but for me, it was a combination of being so astounded and proud of myself for quitting smoking so painlessly... and I was so excited by all of the choices out there.

So, when you are relatively new... it is like being a kid in a candy store... and your attention span acts accordingly... it's like... "mmmm this is great!... this is even better!... I love this! I gotta have me some of that!"

and this lasts for a few months or more.

and apologies to those who felt patronized by that - because it isn't just like that for everyone, but it was for me... and I see it happening for a lot of folks. Some folks are quite the opposite and can't find anything they like.

anyway, as you encounter "hype," it is crucial that you see who is hyping it -
this may sound incredibly obvious, but no matter how much something ius being hyped, you're probably not going to like it if it's a flavor you don't like.

If you hate licorice/anise/absinthe, you suddenly won't start liking it just because it's being hyped.

I tend to interpret hype as enthusiasm.

If you're new, and you are trying to identify juice you might like... approach it cautiously. Use what you do know... flavors, flavorings, ratios, reviewer who pointed you that way etc...

Well Said. Being a relatively new vaper, I fall under the "kid in a candy store" category. I have not received anything free or even been approached by anyone trying to give me something for posting. HOWEVER...I do find myself getting excited about the things I try and posting the results here with others of like mind. I have been around the block a time or two though, and have a pretty good nose for spotting a shill as I do have a very good insight into human nature (I'm an Anthropologist). As you've said, it's a marketing strategy but I align with the OP's premise that it doesn't make it ethical. I tend to buy my juice and equipment based not only on what folks post on the threads of this forum, but my own research outside these borders. I tend to make my own decisions as I've learned long ago that what's good for some, will not always work for others. And I would like to add that I am thankful for the sage advise and opinions from many who are considered veterans here. You have helped myself and my wife kick a habit that would eventually leave us dead. Just my :2c: :)
 

lasttango

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My #1 thing is... I only review something publicly if I like it.

If I dislike a product a vendors sends me... or even if I dislike a juice that I buy... I tend to give the vendor feedback directly.

Yeah, I should elaborate even more on this... because I have stated this before, and some folks have a problem with it.

If I considered myself some kind of expert or professional... then I would publicly evaluate the bad with the good... but geez... I have so little time... between september and june, I'll be a ghost again. I am a full time teacher... high school... with 7 different plans!!! yikes!

I do have a blog site set up and ready to go... but I just haven't committed the time to it yet. I don't feel experienced enough yet.

I would like to be more publicly critical of what I consider to be poor business practices... vendors who nickel and dime us. Tells us their liquid is some rare and precious hand crafted commodity and it's truly nothing unusual or special.

For now, I just tell those people to "go suck it" by telling them directly or... in the case of a friend... or someone who pm's me, I'll go out of my way.


Another thought...

Imagine you are a small aspiring vendor...
You can't afford to advertise... I worked in advertising, a good sized print ad, radio or tv commercials will cost you 2-3 months profit...

so, you rely on word of mouth.

If you have a happy customer that regularly reviews your juices... is it okay to pad their order with some samples?
I think so...

Is it okay to turn that 30ml order into a nice 60mls order in appreciation for the $900 worth of orders that review brought in?
perhaps.
it's not unethical... not yet anyway...

I think it becomes unethical when it become expected.

Think of dr. oz...

if he said eating Rabbit poo was the healthiest thing you could do for yourself, rabbit poo would suddenly become like caviar... for a couple of weeks anyway.

Every episode, dr. oz rattles off all sorts of disclaimers about what he promotes etc.

and warns you not to believe it's endorsed unless he says so on his website.

Think of the MILLIONS he turns down by not endorsing stuff.

Or does he?

thing is, we don't know.

If you believe he's a good guy that wouldn't do that then... heh...

anyway, anyway...

Sharon... you have great instincts and I hope you are around for a long time. we do need more people who can call BS when they see it.

just consider this...

The biggest downfall/shortfall of reviews isn't the potential of bias and bribes... it's subjectivity and experience.
 

cags

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I learned early on that for me liquid reviews are worthless. I don't even read/watch them anymore. I'm one of the poor souls who has a hard time finding liquids I like. through my own trial and error I found I can vape menthols (but many are way too strong and I have to dilute them), fruits and unflavored.
I think ecf does a great job and the best they can to weed out stuff. we are grownups, we have to learn to watch out for ourselves too, we can't (or shouldn't) depend on others to do everything for us :)
 

SharonMM

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@LT- "Don't believe the hype"

That's sound solid advice for sure, but...

I come here for the hype. Its either that or fly blind. Do you realize how big vaping has become since you started? I'm starting from ground zero here and there is A LOT to choose from. This forum is the closest thing to a compass as I'm going to find. If all it is here is a bunch of sneaky marketing strategy... My time is valuable. I fast forward through tv commercials, I do not accept cookies and ill be damned if I waste my time reading that ..... Real opinions from real people are all that matter to me.

So...

@Cardiwen- Thank you for addressing my concern. I'm glad to know you all are at least trying to keep this place spam free.
 

Robino1

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I started in September. I came here after seeing this forum at the top every time I typed in E-cig in the google bar. I had never seen an ecig, I know of zero people that vape. I didn't know what an atty, carto, vape, eliquid, eGo, head, PG/VG any of that stuff was. I was flying blind but even though my time IS valuable, I still did research with every minute I had to spare. The same vendors are still selling liquids, the same threads are being made. The only thing that has changed lately, are the sub-ohm rebuilding.

I tried samples from several vendors and found some that I could finish, found some that I couldn't. Finally lucked out and settled there. Because I read so many times over and over again that taste is subjective, I never paid attention to juice reviews. The only real reviews I paid attention to were for hardware.

Most of us started out not knowing a thing about vaping. We read until it started to make sense. Then crossed my fingers that what I put in my shopping cart would be enough to get me started. I watched respected reviewers on YouTube. The ones that don't BS about gear.

Good luck. I hope you finally find your happy place. Sometimes finding it takes work but is so worth it when you do finally find it.
 

cags

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I started in September. I came here after seeing this forum at the top every time I typed in E-cig in the google bar. I had never seen an ecig, I know of zero people that vape. I didn't know what an atty, carto, vape, eliquid, eGo, head, PG/VG any of that stuff was. I was flying blind but even though my time IS valuable, I still did research with every minute I had to spare. The same vendors are still selling liquids, the same threads are being made. The only thing that has changed lately, are the sub-ohm rebuilding.

I tried samples from several vendors and found some that I could finish, found some that I couldn't. Finally lucked out and settled there. Because I read so many times over and over again that taste is subjective, I never paid attention to juice reviews. The only real reviews I paid attention to were for hardware.

Most of us started out not knowing a thing about vaping. We read until it started to make sense. Then crossed my fingers that what I put in my shopping cart would be enough to get me started. I watched respected reviewers on YouTube. The ones that don't BS about gear.

Good luck. I hope you finally find your happy place. Sometimes finding it takes work but is so worth it when you do finally find it.

I agree! really, we all started blind. and I also will read/watch reviews on hardware and customer service which is important to me. liquids will always require trial and error because it's personal taste!
 

jesta

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The biggest downfall/shortfall of reviews isn't the potential of bias and bribes... it's subjectivity and experience.

I completely agree with your entire post, and adding to this sentence, another thing is credibility. Most people assume that someone's writing an honest review when they post about it. I just wish everyone would do the same. I've seen a few people in threads (including this one) that say they don't publicly post negative feedback, and I'd encourage them to do the opposite.

I've received some free samples and I haven't enjoyed some of them, I try to share that when I write a review. Everyone should.

If you think it's terrible, explain why you think it's terrible. If you appreciated the flavors but aren't a fan, say so. I personally am not an anise fan in flavors, I've always hated the licorice taste. However, if I taste a good tobacco in the flavor, along with it, I'm not afraid to say it's good, but not for me. Explaining what's in a flavor, and shade it with your opinion. A straight up, long winded opinion with no valid points doesn't help anyone.

I think people just need to be weary of those who only talk about 1-2 vendors constantly and never have anything bad to say about them. Bad feedback can generally be more valuable (to everyone) than good feedback. Simply saying "It sucks" or it "Tastes like garbage" doesn't help anyone :/
 

Mike Sheda

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I look at the e-liquids to find new vendors since I'm new to this. I try samples of things that sound interesting to me from them. If there are any that I like, I look for people that reviewed those and felt like I did. Then I see what else they liked.
It's worked out well for me so far. Of course, I was still curious enough to try Pizza and Bacon, but that's on me. I'm not brave enough to try dill pickle yet though :)

They are opinions, to be taken with a block of salt, but if you take that into consideration, they can be helpful.
 

johni

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When I started on ECF, I read and didn't post much til I thought I had something decent to contribute. I found people with similar tastes and hung out where they did, still mostly reading and learning. Following their recommendations I have tried many juices with a very high "like" percentage. I still value the opinions of these folks more than any others and converse with them regularly.

If you can find people with similar tastes and the ability to convey what a juice actually tastes like, get to know them. Let them know what has and hasn't worked for you and what you are looking for. Most are more than glad to help.
 

Heavyrocker

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If try a juice and hate it and someone tries it and loves it, this tells me that either his/her tastes buds are shot too hell or they are getting paid too say its great,when they say taste is subjective,i don really buy into that,if the juice taste like glue it tastes like glue,i just guess some people love glue.just my :2c::2c:

I never thought that finding a good the juice was going too be the biggest determining factor of vaping,first it was getting the right mod and tank,now its the juice,seems like im chasing my tail for juice.
 
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Barbara21

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Praise in public, criticize in private - works for more than just juice and product reviews

I don't know if I agree with this (at least in terms of product reviews). I do know that - as a relatively new (3 month) vaper - I appreciate hearing *all* reviews, both good and bad.

I don't want to mention specific juice companies so I'll go with generalities. Fifty percent of the people who try juice 'A' like it while only ten percent of the people who try juice 'B' like it. But a thousand people have tried juice 'B' (because the company is well known, it's cheaper, whatever) while only a hundred have tried juice 'A'. If only positive reviews are counted, juice 'B' will appear to be 'better' (100 positive reviews) than juice 'B' (50 positive reviews).

And often the negative reviews are helpful, especially if they explain what they didn't like.

But of course we can't force everybody to review everything they try.

In terms of someone (a reviewer) accepting free juice - that's sort of a fine line. If I were a new juice vendor, I'd be willing to send samples out to people, just to try and get some publicity. After all, people can't even consider buying your product if they've never heard about it. But 1) I think it needs to be disclosed and 2) I would appreciate a reviewer mentioning whether s/he would spend his/her own money to buy more. (One of my favorite flavors was a sample from Mount Baker and - yes - I'll spend my own money to buy more (when they get it back in stock. :) ))
 

unloaded

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Early on I realized I didn't have the same tastes as most people posting. What I did was make a list of juices I'd tried and went and watched a bunch of reviews on them. It was no suprise to seem the same juice described very differently by different reviewers. What I started watching for, rather than if they liked it or not, was how they described the juice. If their description matched my experience I kept note. Eventually I found a few reviewers who seemed to have a similar palate to mine. I call this "Calibrating your reviewer". Once I had a few calibrated I started looking at their reviews for juices I hadn't tried. Some of the ones that sounded interesting to me I ordered. The results weren't 100% successful but they were much better than seeing OMG! This juice ROcKS! and placing an order.

Review the reviewers and you'll have much better results.
 
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