Greetings and toxicology

[someone3x7]

Greetings. I understand I have to find 5 reasons to post in this newbie forum. So here goes the first... I've been vaping for a couple months now and have been doing a lot of research on the subject. I discovered this site a bit ago and have done a fair amount of reading here. I suspect that posts here have lead to 50% of what I know, although much of it indirectly. You all have given me enough to understand what I want to find. Thank you.

Most recently, I have been researching the potential for harm in ingredients and methods harm reduction. This is because I want to start mixing my own liquids. I am a fairly intelligent person. I understand measurements and enough chemistry to follow a scientists notes. Originally, I was under the impression that Propylene Glycol was as safe as water and that Glycerine should be used in with more moderation. Just today I discovered that everything I thought I knew about Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin was wrong. A relatively new study, mentioned at CSPNet (here) on July 10, 2012, compared nicotine vaporizing to tobacco smoking. This study may confirm that Electronic Cigarettes are much healthier than smoking tobacco, but, not without risk. Along with 6 volatile organics normally found in tobacco (which has 36) they also found trace amounts formaldehyde was being released from the liquid as it heats up. A german scientist involved in the study stated it was likely from the Propylene Glycol. Then went on to recommend using Glycerine as a complete replacement for the base mixture. After a little digging I did find that Glycerine contains no formaldehyde releasers.

Concerning other ingredients could be used in E-Liquids I have found on the web that diacetyl, acetyl propionyl, and acetoin are used in some butter flavors and that every custard contains one of these three. They are pretty much the same thing chemically. Except the acetoin doesn’t turn to diacetyl until its heated up. Anything made with Vanillin is a definite out, it seems this turns quite toxic when heated. All natural and some artificial Wintergreen flavors are also bad for you due to the presence of methylis salicylas (a.k.a. methyl salicylate or sodium salicylate). Triactetin, a chemical that is completely safe to inhale, is a powerful plasticiser. This means it will eat your tank and release plastics into your vape making it dangerous for your lungs. For the same reason all sour flavors, cinnamon flavors, and anything containing malic acid or citrus acid should also be avoided. Everything meaty should be avoided because meaty flavors contain aldehydes and ketones which are known to be bad for your lungs.

So I ask of the veterans if I am missing anything important? Also please correct me where I'm wrong(with citation if you can).

Thank you again, and have a good time-cycle.

 

[kiwivap]

It wasn't my intent to "fear monger." But I have to disagree it is poor science. If a product contains a chemical that is known to be dangerous to inhale over certain levels. Than lacking other evidence it is better to assume that if that product has those levels or higher it is also dangerous.

There is no evidence that vapers are inhaling any chemical over a dangerous level. What you're saying isn't making scientific sense. When you have peer-reviewed studies pointing to dangerous levels of chemicals then there is cause for concern. Trace amounts of naturally occurring products do not equal that. It is not enough to point to the name of a chemical and assume. If that were true we'd starve to death, because some of the chemicals you're concerned about are in our food. Diacetyl and acetonin are in butter, and are routinely added to margarine. Sodium salicylate can act as a natural anti-inflammatory agent, and has been found to have anti-cancer properties.

Just knowing something is present doesn't mean we can assume its harmful.

If there are genuine biomedical concerns then in vivo testing and peer review is the path. However, so far every doctor I have encountered as had no concerns about vaping.

 

[kiwivap]

With these assumptions as to what may be average we can begin to compare concentration levels of whats in the liquid.

Science isn't done with assumptions. And no, you can't compare concentration levels because you haven't the data showing what concentration has been administered. To do what you propose you would need to know the concentration in the vapor (not the juice), and then the lung capacity of the vaper - keeping in mind that most vapers were smokers and will not all have maximum lung capacity. You would need a statistical sample based on several tests. And then at best all you would be saying is that a certain amount of something made up a certain amount of the inhaled volume.

 

[AttyPops]

Yes, I read that study just the other day here at ECF, in another forum. The formaldehyde they found was 5-10 times less than what is found in analogs. Which is within 'standards' for human consumption. That being said, I think I'll continue using my 70%PG / 30% VG, or maybe up my VG alittle more. Haven't decided yet. But something I recommend to everyone is to use GLASS! I will no longer recommend plastic tanks such as the plastic Vivi Nova's, clearomizers, or CE2 or plastic tubing cartomizer tanks to anyone. There are glass and stainless steel tanks 'out there'...I think there is a SS version of the Vivi Novas, and I know there are glass and stainless steel tanks for cartomizer tanks. Also, keep your juice in GLASS bottles! All my stuff is in glass anymore.

Great post BTW!

Yeah, I purchased the metal tank option with my vivi nova for that reason (if it broke/reacted). I think it was a couple/three bucks.

As to the rest, my take (replying to an early post and not having read everything in this thread yet...still reading):

Many/most of the vendors have eliminated diacetyl due to concerns about it (justified or not, above/below "tolerable levels" or not) but it's always good to check if you are concerned. As to acrolein, if I even remember properly, it's a function of how much heat is present and comes most easily from the VG, not the PG, but can come from either.

All this stuff seems pretty dependent on the heat at the coil. There are studies, but the point about "e-juice can contain anything" is a valid one. We just haven't had tests on every flavor and PG/VG ratio on the market. I do think the vendors try to stick with what they believe are safe flavorings. We won't even know the full effects of this vaping thing for another 20 years...

I try to keep my DIY e-juices simple with regard to flavorings. If I was particularly worried, I'd probably vape unflavored e-juice. But the flavorings help keep me off cigs...I can't stand unflavored juice. Ack!. Too much VG is too "heavy" on my lungs. That counts too. IDK how people vape 100% VG juices, but I'm glad if it works for them. Doesn't for me.

So vape the cleanest stuff you can manage if you are worried about it. If you are really worried, vape unflavored and DIY it from the cleanest nic you can find.

Bottom line is that although there are positive studies they just haven't studied every combination of everything out there. I sincerely hope it ALL turns out OK and they we worried for nothing. Some studies indicate some harmful stuff at very low levels. This is harm reduction; nobody in their right mind has claimed it's 100% safe in all devices for all juices at all voltages that I know of.

Best to inhale air only. Unless of course you are in a major city with smog... then go look at those studies. What can ya do?

Best guesses.

 

[somejerk]

Well I've read up a lot about propylene glycol.
It's used in breathing treatments, fog machines, non-toxic antifreeze, and more. It's an antibacterial and antiviral. They use it in disinfectants. The did a test with monkeys being exposed to propylene glycol for VERY long periods of time with no side effects. Occasionally people have allergic reactions, but it's rare. The most is usually ever does is irritate the eyes. Toxicity in humans is very very low and would be almost impossible to reach.
What is in your flavors you should be concerned about. I've heard about cinnamon flavors literally destroying the plastic on the tank. What is extracted with the nicotine should also be a concern.
I would just look through some vendors and order juice with natural flavorings and such.
Either way, I know that it's a vast improvement from cigarettes.

 

[kiwivap]

Innocent until proven guilty is a bad way to approach health.

That's not what I said tho. You have been purporting to be scientific, but scientific is not just making assumptions and running off lists of chemicals. That's closer to paranoia. And we don't have to go around considering everything we ingest is "guilty" when there isn't proof it is. That's not a good way to approach health.

That wouldn't be the first time I've typed one when I meant the other.

Well you typed a prevailing pop notion of what a scientific theory is - which it isn't.

This part next is a general rant and not directed at you specifically.

This philosophy that everything is peachy keen till a study says otherwise is just ludicrous. Yes, we know for the most part vaping is safer.

Oh I'd say that's a direct response to what I've said. And actually, yes, we do need evidence before we start saying something is harmful. The philosophy that we can make any assumption we want with no direct evidence, and then call it scientific is the problem. By your logic here I can pronounce guilt on any substance, with no evidence.

But not all is known yet and 'm not going to start huffing something as dangerous as diacetyl, which I might mention was not covered in those studies, assuming that trace amounts of it are safe. Will I stop vaping? No. Overall the studies done look good to me. They just aren't extensive enough for me to start mixing blindly.

If you haven't already, you had better stop eating butter, margarine, popcorn, butter milk and butterscotch. You'll also need to not drink beer and some chardonnays. They all contain diacetyl. The problem with diacetyl has been industrial exposure. I can appreciate there's some concern with it - I don't use those kind of vape flavors - because they don't appeal to me. However, I would like to see a study comparing industrial concentration levels with everyday user consumption levels. Industrial exposure to any chemical is usually higher than the general public.

Two things:
1. Speculation and assumption are not the scientific method.
2. Yes, we do need evidence rather than starting a witch hunt over substances.

 

[kalison]

Thanks for posting this... interesting read.

I don't know enough to comment too much on the subject.

 

[someone3x7]

Very welcome. I'm tempted to try and correct the more of the glaring grammatical errors. Yet, I fear I have had one beverage too many this eve...

 

[VapDrak]

No old veteran here!
I found your thread very interesting and think that it would be great to have a list of more harmful juices!!!
Really: it is interesting for all of us!!!
We all know that vaping is healthier than smoking, but it is of interest to know more about the different juices we use...
So: Thanks Somenoe3x7 perhaps something big comes out of this!

 

[thinkingaboutit]

When you can, please post this in the DIY juice section. There are a lot of folks who have researched this also. There is a chemist who frequents that board also. Could be a good discussion, or it could set your mind at ease fast.

 

[EDGECRUSHER]

Thank you for the topic.
When I first started using e-cigs, and ultimately now vaping, I trusted that whatever it was that I was inhaling was on the order of magnitude better than what I was inhaling in a combustible cigarette vis-à-vis tobacco. I considered that I wasn't simply jumping in as a non-smoker into vaping (a category that in of itself begs some research into discovering if those people even exist) rather a former smoker now vaping.
When first reading that PG has similarities to monoethylene glycol (or EG) I hoped that I wasn't blindly giving up my addiction to cigarettes for something that was ultimately worse for my health. It is good to hear there are studies being done to show the health effects of PG, and the recommendation of moving to glycerine as a base reads as good advice, if for the fact it (glycerine) doesn't cause allergic reactions to humans. All in all, isn't it odd that we're inhaling what amounts to antifreeze products? There was a study done the text of which can be read here in the early 40's that showed inhaling vaporized PG could lead to being more resistant to airborne pathogens. THAT I'd weigh in as enough to counter any ill effects I may see to continue to use PG-based products, but that is my opinion only.

Good topic. The only question I have with the findings is them saying it's "likely" the formaldehyde was released by PG. I like my science as definite as possible, to be quite honest :]

 

[Kay1959]

Yes, I read that study just the other day here at ECF, in another forum. The formaldehyde they found was 5-10 times less than what is found in analogs. Which is within 'standards' for human consumption. That being said, I think I'll continue using my 70%PG / 30% VG, or maybe up my VG alittle more. Haven't decided yet. But something I recommend to everyone is to use GLASS! I will no longer recommend plastic tanks such as the plastic Vivi Nova's, clearomizers, or CE2 or plastic tubing cartomizer tanks to anyone. There are glass and stainless steel tanks 'out there'...I think there is a SS version of the Vivi Novas, and I know there are glass and stainless steel tanks for cartomizer tanks. Also, keep your juice in GLASS bottles! All my stuff is in glass anymore.

Great post BTW!

 

[Davenkay]

It is time for me to look beyond the hardware and e-juice issues and start looking at the science to become a more informed vaper. This is a great post and an eye opener. thanks for posting and all the responses.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

Great post. When I first heard about citrus juices cracking plastic my first thought was "what effect is this having on my lungs". I now avoid citrus based juices. As for the issues of diacetyl there are vendors that supply healthier alternatives. I've avoided diacetyl and anything connected with it for close to a year. As for plastics I transfer all my juices to glass bottles. I am now having second thoughts though on using plastic clearomizers and tanks. Possible I may get a glass tank and use cartos. I'm planning on quitting vaping this Sept. as per my original plan because I knew all along that although vaping as a far healthier alternative to smoking there had to be some downside to the chems, etc ingested via the lungs. I also have serious concerns about the silca wicks in the clearos.

By and large I don't want the industry regulated but for the reasons above maybe there might be some good if it were regulated= more $$ for studies and to have some idea about the stuff we're vaping.

 

[someone3x7]

Great post. When I first heard about citrus juices cracking plastic my first thought was "what effect is this having on my lungs". I now avoid citrus based juices. As for the issues of diacetyl there are vendors that supply healthier alternatives. I've avoided diacetyl and anything connected with it for close to a year. As for plastics I transfer all my juices to glass bottles. I am now having second thoughts though on using plastic clearomizers and tanks. Possible I may get a glass tank and use cartos. I'm planning on quitting vaping this Sept. as per my original plan because I knew all along that although vaping as a far healthier alternative to smoking there had to be some downside to the chems, etc ingested via the lungs. I also have serious concerns about the silca wicks in the clearos.

By and large I don't want the industry regulated but for the reasons above maybe there might be some good if it were regulated= more $$ for studies and to have some idea about the stuff we're vaping.

From what I've gathered the buttery stuff at TPA is safe. A couple other flavor companies, which I will leave unnamed since this may sound worse than it may be, advertise they are diacytyl free. However, after some conversation with them asking about products when I brought up and asked about acetoin all conversation stopped. It seems they won't reply to anything from me now. Maybe they are just busy double checking their recipes before getting back to me. That could take a week...

 

[kiwivap]

Not all of these things are bad, we just don't know exactly how some of them may affect the lungs as inhalants. We consume citric acid in fruit all the time. Our bodies make ketone as a by-product. It's a way of storing energy. Formaldehyde is a by-product of digestion.
We produce various things naturally, or consume them organically.
I think some in-vivo testing would be interesting, but I don't see a reason to panic. As you point out, a chemical such as Triactetin is harmless to inhale, but can leech plastic.
We drink coca cola which literally leeches calcium out of bones.
In other words - all sorts of physiological process take place in our bodies every day. I haven't seen any evidence to make me feel alarmed about vaping - except to avoid certain flavors sitting in plastic.

 

[yzer]

I not not an expert in toxicology, but I'm vaping 95/5 Glycerin USP/H2O w/ 20 mg nicotine. No artificial flavorings. My preferred beverage is pure grain alcohol and distilled H2O. I trust only stainless steel cartomizers stuffed with virgin polyfil.

 

[someone3x7]

Not all of these things are bad, we just don't know exactly how some of them may affect the lungs as inhalants. We consume citric acid in fruit all the time. Our bodies make ketone as a by-product. It's a way of storing energy. Formaldehyde is a by-product of digestion.
We produce various things naturally, or consume them organically.
I think some in-vivo testing would be interesting, but I don't see a reason to panic. As you point out, a chemical such as Triactetin is harmless to inhale, but can leech plastic.
We drink coca cola which literally leeches calcium out of bones.
In other words - all sorts of physiological process take place in our bodies every day. I haven't seen any evidence to make me feel alarmed about vaping - except to avoid certain flavors sitting in plastic.

Again the citric acid isn't directly bad. Its what it does to your tank that is bad. When something eats at your tank plastics get into your liquid.

Edit: With a metal tank these flavors are like safe.

 

[kiwivap]

Yes, that's what I was saying when I said I avoid certian flavors sitting in plastic. I also sometimes drink coca cola.

 

[someone3x7]

I not not an expert in toxicology, but I'm vaping 95/5 Glycerin USP/H2O w/ 20 mg nicotine. No artificial flavorings. My preferred beverage is pure grain alcohol and distilled H2O. I trust only stainless steel cartomizers stuffed with virgin polyfil.

I wasn't fond of the straight cartomizers unfortunately. What would be nice is a glass alloy clearomizer... One can hope such a thing finds its way on the market.