Greetings and toxicology

[someone3x7]

Greetings. I understand I have to find 5 reasons to post in this newbie forum. So here goes the first... I've been vaping for a couple months now and have been doing a lot of research on the subject. I discovered this site a bit ago and have done a fair amount of reading here. I suspect that posts here have lead to 50% of what I know, although much of it indirectly. You all have given me enough to understand what I want to find. Thank you.

Most recently, I have been researching the potential for harm in ingredients and methods harm reduction. This is because I want to start mixing my own liquids. I am a fairly intelligent person. I understand measurements and enough chemistry to follow a scientists notes. Originally, I was under the impression that Propylene Glycol was as safe as water and that Glycerine should be used in with more moderation. Just today I discovered that everything I thought I knew about Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin was wrong. A relatively new study, mentioned at CSPNet (here) on July 10, 2012, compared nicotine vaporizing to tobacco smoking. This study may confirm that Electronic Cigarettes are much healthier than smoking tobacco, but, not without risk. Along with 6 volatile organics normally found in tobacco (which has 36) they also found trace amounts formaldehyde was being released from the liquid as it heats up. A german scientist involved in the study stated it was likely from the Propylene Glycol. Then went on to recommend using Glycerine as a complete replacement for the base mixture. After a little digging I did find that Glycerine contains no formaldehyde releasers.

Concerning other ingredients could be used in E-Liquids I have found on the web that diacetyl, acetyl propionyl, and acetoin are used in some butter flavors and that every custard contains one of these three. They are pretty much the same thing chemically. Except the acetoin doesn’t turn to diacetyl until its heated up. Anything made with Vanillin is a definite out, it seems this turns quite toxic when heated. All natural and some artificial Wintergreen flavors are also bad for you due to the presence of methylis salicylas (a.k.a. methyl salicylate or sodium salicylate). Triactetin, a chemical that is completely safe to inhale, is a powerful plasticiser. This means it will eat your tank and release plastics into your vape making it dangerous for your lungs. For the same reason all sour flavors, cinnamon flavors, and anything containing malic acid or citrus acid should also be avoided. Everything meaty should be avoided because meaty flavors contain aldehydes and ketones which are known to be bad for your lungs.

So I ask of the veterans if I am missing anything important? Also please correct me where I'm wrong(with citation if you can).

Thank you again, and have a good time-cycle.

 

[kalison]

Thanks for posting this... interesting read.

I don't know enough to comment too much on the subject.

 

[someone3x7]

Very welcome. I'm tempted to try and correct the more of the glaring grammatical errors. Yet, I fear I have had one beverage too many this eve...

 

[VapDrak]

No old veteran here!
I found your thread very interesting and think that it would be great to have a list of more harmful juices!!!
Really: it is interesting for all of us!!!
We all know that vaping is healthier than smoking, but it is of interest to know more about the different juices we use...
So: Thanks Somenoe3x7 perhaps something big comes out of this!

 

[thinkingaboutit]

When you can, please post this in the DIY juice section. There are a lot of folks who have researched this also. There is a chemist who frequents that board also. Could be a good discussion, or it could set your mind at ease fast.

 

[EDGECRUSHER]

Thank you for the topic.
When I first started using e-cigs, and ultimately now vaping, I trusted that whatever it was that I was inhaling was on the order of magnitude better than what I was inhaling in a combustible cigarette vis-à-vis tobacco. I considered that I wasn't simply jumping in as a non-smoker into vaping (a category that in of itself begs some research into discovering if those people even exist) rather a former smoker now vaping.
When first reading that PG has similarities to monoethylene glycol (or EG) I hoped that I wasn't blindly giving up my addiction to cigarettes for something that was ultimately worse for my health. It is good to hear there are studies being done to show the health effects of PG, and the recommendation of moving to glycerine as a base reads as good advice, if for the fact it (glycerine) doesn't cause allergic reactions to humans. All in all, isn't it odd that we're inhaling what amounts to antifreeze products? There was a study done the text of which can be read here in the early 40's that showed inhaling vaporized PG could lead to being more resistant to airborne pathogens. THAT I'd weigh in as enough to counter any ill effects I may see to continue to use PG-based products, but that is my opinion only.

Good topic. The only question I have with the findings is them saying it's "likely" the formaldehyde was released by PG. I like my science as definite as possible, to be quite honest :]

 

[Kay1959]

Yes, I read that study just the other day here at ECF, in another forum. The formaldehyde they found was 5-10 times less than what is found in analogs. Which is within 'standards' for human consumption. That being said, I think I'll continue using my 70%PG / 30% VG, or maybe up my VG alittle more. Haven't decided yet. But something I recommend to everyone is to use GLASS! I will no longer recommend plastic tanks such as the plastic Vivi Nova's, clearomizers, or CE2 or plastic tubing cartomizer tanks to anyone. There are glass and stainless steel tanks 'out there'...I think there is a SS version of the Vivi Novas, and I know there are glass and stainless steel tanks for cartomizer tanks. Also, keep your juice in GLASS bottles! All my stuff is in glass anymore.

Great post BTW!

 

[Davenkay]

It is time for me to look beyond the hardware and e-juice issues and start looking at the science to become a more informed vaper. This is a great post and an eye opener. thanks for posting and all the responses.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

Great post. When I first heard about citrus juices cracking plastic my first thought was "what effect is this having on my lungs". I now avoid citrus based juices. As for the issues of diacetyl there are vendors that supply healthier alternatives. I've avoided diacetyl and anything connected with it for close to a year. As for plastics I transfer all my juices to glass bottles. I am now having second thoughts though on using plastic clearomizers and tanks. Possible I may get a glass tank and use cartos. I'm planning on quitting vaping this Sept. as per my original plan because I knew all along that although vaping as a far healthier alternative to smoking there had to be some downside to the chems, etc ingested via the lungs. I also have serious concerns about the silca wicks in the clearos.

By and large I don't want the industry regulated but for the reasons above maybe there might be some good if it were regulated= more $$ for studies and to have some idea about the stuff we're vaping.

 

[someone3x7]

Great post. When I first heard about citrus juices cracking plastic my first thought was "what effect is this having on my lungs". I now avoid citrus based juices. As for the issues of diacetyl there are vendors that supply healthier alternatives. I've avoided diacetyl and anything connected with it for close to a year. As for plastics I transfer all my juices to glass bottles. I am now having second thoughts though on using plastic clearomizers and tanks. Possible I may get a glass tank and use cartos. I'm planning on quitting vaping this Sept. as per my original plan because I knew all along that although vaping as a far healthier alternative to smoking there had to be some downside to the chems, etc ingested via the lungs. I also have serious concerns about the silca wicks in the clearos.

By and large I don't want the industry regulated but for the reasons above maybe there might be some good if it were regulated= more $$ for studies and to have some idea about the stuff we're vaping.

From what I've gathered the buttery stuff at TPA is safe. A couple other flavor companies, which I will leave unnamed since this may sound worse than it may be, advertise they are diacytyl free. However, after some conversation with them asking about products when I brought up and asked about acetoin all conversation stopped. It seems they won't reply to anything from me now. Maybe they are just busy double checking their recipes before getting back to me. That could take a week...

 

[kiwivap]

Not all of these things are bad, we just don't know exactly how some of them may affect the lungs as inhalants. We consume citric acid in fruit all the time. Our bodies make ketone as a by-product. It's a way of storing energy. Formaldehyde is a by-product of digestion.
We produce various things naturally, or consume them organically.
I think some in-vivo testing would be interesting, but I don't see a reason to panic. As you point out, a chemical such as Triactetin is harmless to inhale, but can leech plastic.
We drink coca cola which literally leeches calcium out of bones.
In other words - all sorts of physiological process take place in our bodies every day. I haven't seen any evidence to make me feel alarmed about vaping - except to avoid certain flavors sitting in plastic.

 

[yzer]

I not not an expert in toxicology, but I'm vaping 95/5 Glycerin USP/H2O w/ 20 mg nicotine. No artificial flavorings. My preferred beverage is pure grain alcohol and distilled H2O. I trust only stainless steel cartomizers stuffed with virgin polyfil.

 

[someone3x7]

Not all of these things are bad, we just don't know exactly how some of them may affect the lungs as inhalants. We consume citric acid in fruit all the time. Our bodies make ketone as a by-product. It's a way of storing energy. Formaldehyde is a by-product of digestion.
We produce various things naturally, or consume them organically.
I think some in-vivo testing would be interesting, but I don't see a reason to panic. As you point out, a chemical such as Triactetin is harmless to inhale, but can leech plastic.
We drink coca cola which literally leeches calcium out of bones.
In other words - all sorts of physiological process take place in our bodies every day. I haven't seen any evidence to make me feel alarmed about vaping - except to avoid certain flavors sitting in plastic.

Again the citric acid isn't directly bad. Its what it does to your tank that is bad. When something eats at your tank plastics get into your liquid.

Edit: With a metal tank these flavors are like safe.

 

[kiwivap]

Yes, that's what I was saying when I said I avoid certian flavors sitting in plastic. I also sometimes drink coca cola.

 

[someone3x7]

I not not an expert in toxicology, but I'm vaping 95/5 Glycerin USP/H2O w/ 20 mg nicotine. No artificial flavorings. My preferred beverage is pure grain alcohol and distilled H2O. I trust only stainless steel cartomizers stuffed with virgin polyfil.

I wasn't fond of the straight cartomizers unfortunately. What would be nice is a glass alloy clearomizer... One can hope such a thing finds its way on the market.

 

[X P3 Flight Engineer]

Snip- By and large I don't want the industry regulated but for the reasons above maybe there might be some good if it were regulated= more $$ for studies and to have some idea about the stuff we're vaping.

They have studied cigarettes, found them harmful, over-priced them to reduce consumption, and plastered Warnings on the package to reduce their liability. I don't think this approach will help us if they apply it to Vaping.

I am content to know that it is less harm than smoking and that it would be better if I could reduce the amount that I vaped.

In the meantime I am Relaxing and Enjoying!

 

[someone3x7]

They have studied cigarettes, found them harmful, over-priced them to reduce consumption, and plastered Warnings on the package to reduce their liability. I don't think this approach will help us if they apply it to Vaping.

I am content to know that it is less harm than smoking and that it would be better if I could reduce the amount that I vaped.

In the meantime I am Relaxing and Enjoying!

I like that vaping is less harmful. Yet, in the fight against overbearing regulation it would be good to further lower the harm factor. Regulation is going to happen. The question is on who's terms. If the community regulates itself its more likely that when law is made it will mirror the community. This was very evident in my state where several counties have placed regulation on sale to minors and where you can vape. Many were extreme and set the bans to match tobacco bans. In my county the regulation was lobbied by our local favorite vape store, which was regulating itself already, and we got a more relaxed set of regulations.

 

[Tolver]

I wonder how many of the anti-vaping studies are performed by the tobacco industry? I just ran across some mis-information in another thread on this forum. My suggestion is to look at the other 'science' that is posted on these anti-vaping study websites and see if their science stands up under scrutiny. Anybody can put up a fake website that furthers their twisted agenda, don't believe everything you read, find supporting evidence and do not rely on solo reports.

 

[someone3x7]

If you want to read more studies heres a good start:

CASAA Printable Material
Science And Studies | Guide To Vaping
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/centers-institutes/population-development/files/article.jphp.pdf

 

[kiwivap]

The "harm factor" isn't established. Running off a list of chemicals doesn't equal a harm factor. The biggest concern where I live has nothing to do with chemicals - the govt. is afraid minors will start vaping and become addicted to nicotine. I think they are over-reacting. As it is now nicotine juice and cartos can't be sold internally.
Until some proper in vivo testing is done and a direct link is made to pathological effects, there is no data to regulate.