Has anybody read this at Totally Wicked?

[kinabaloo]

I'm doubtful about this. Analogs seem to be very inefficient in terms of delivering nicotine in terms of the amount present in the source (tobacco) vs. the amount arriving to our bodies. And anecdotally the 24mg Dekang Winston I have doesn't feel as strong to me as Platinum Ice diluted to the same strength.

Another factor to keep in mind when comparing tobacco to vaped fluids: the method of delivery counts for a lot. The publicized nicotine ratings for cigarettes seem to already discount the amount lost in burning the cigarette, and it is a very high factor. We're only beginning to learn the amount lost in vaporizing (thanks DVap!) and it appears to be much lower.

The important things to understand are, I think,

1) How much of the source nicotine is actually being received by our body.

2) How does the way that nicotine is being delivered affect our body's response.

It seems to me that the tobacco industry has made great progress on both questions over the years. They're labelling their products based on (1), i.e. the amount we receive (and perhaps absorb, what I've read isn't clear in that regard), and they've also learned to add stuff to the tobacco to improve (2).

OTOH the e-cig industry is very young. Products are labelled according to the original content vs. (1) the delivered content. DVap and Exo have made awesome progress in determining the real values of this. And still, after that, (2) will be the next question. There is anecdotal evidence that it is different in some way for vaping vs. smoking.

In saying analogs are efficient in delivery I mean from inhale to brain. (That a lot of the nic in the leaf is lost is because it is in salt form and not able to vaporise, afaik.) Likely reason for the inefficiency of nic from e-cigs is the slower absorbtion; with this being because of being latgely within droplets of PG/VG rather than on the surface of ash particles.

This difference might not be as great as once thought though, because the extent of nic loss in the atty is higher than expected. Comparing like for like, the lack of buzz from e-cigs might not be that great after all.

As DVap says, there is nothing in Ice to make it more effective, but it is possible that there is/are thing(s) in 'normal' e-liquids that reduce their hit, perhaps by increasing loss in the atty. (Citric acid is an example of an additive/flavor that could reasonably be expected to have such an effect). Whether there is a real difference, and if so to what extent, is unknown; might vary from nothing to significant (~20%) depending on the liquid. In short, the purer liquid would have the best chance of being strongest (any true 'enhancers' aside); the great majority of additives/flavors are only likely to be detrimental.

Then there is the (probably stronger) role that flavorings have in masking or subduing the nic taste. Menthol is especially good at that; but other flavors and aromas probably do so also to some extent.

 

[Scottes]

...the 48 mg unflavored from myfreedomsmokes which is also a mixture of only nicotine and propylene glycol. ... It is also very clean.

From another thread concerning MFS 48mg unflavored:

You know, when I hold it up to my soft white light bulb in my office, it does look goldish! In the Lab, under florescents, it looks red, but I swear in the bathroom it looked pink!

These two quotes seem contradictory. If it's only nicotine and PG, and it's clean, why the heck does it have a color (whichever color it really is)??? What's in it that is giving MFS nic-juice a color?


I debated buying MFS nic-juice - until I read the above quote from Freedom.

And I'm not trying to knock MFS, just looking for info/clarification.

 

[kinabaloo]

From another thread concerning MFS 48mg unflavored:


These two quotes seem contradictory. If it's only nicotine and PG, and it's clean, why the heck does it have a color (whichever color it really is)??? What's in it that is giving MFS nic-juice a color?


I debated buying MFS nic-juice - until I read the above quote from Freedom.

And I'm not trying to knock MFS, just looking for info/clarification.

Afaik, a slight color does not necessarily imply oxidation; the actual color seems to depend on the base liquid (PG or VG say), so this color might indicate slight bonding between the nic and base liquid (such as hydrogen bonds). I've not seen a juice that is crystal clear.

 

[Scottes]

I've not seen a juice that is crystal clear.

Isn't Platinum Ice supposed to be crystal clear?

And I'm pretty sure that Blip is... Well, an eye-dropper full of Blip looks crystal clear. Granted, it may look clear to me, with a small sample size and the dim tungsten lighting in my house.


Anyway, if both nicotine and PG are clear and colorless, then the final liquid should be clear and colorless. Right?

 

[Mister]

Isn't Platinum Ice supposed to be crystal clear?

Platinum Ice is indeed clear, at least to my eyes. I can't see any color at all in it.

 

[DVap]

From another thread concerning MFS 48mg unflavored:


These two quotes seem contradictory. If it's only nicotine and PG, and it's clean, why the heck does it have a color (whichever color it really is)??? What's in it that is giving MFS nic-juice a color?


I debated buying MFS nic-juice - until I read the above quote from Freedom.

And I'm not trying to knock MFS, just looking for info/clarification.

I know what the issue here is, but I gave Chris from MFS a call to make sure I had his OK to talk about it on his behalf. Nothing prevents me from talking about it on my own behalf, but I believe that his OK will allow a fuller story to be told. He's given that OK. (Note that "Hush it up and pretend nothing happened!" was not his reply. I wouldn't have gone for it, instead I would have hinted at a problem while doing my best to preserve his trust in me in discussing such issues with me).

In the past, he had the laboratory he deals with mix highly purified nicotine with propylene glycol for him so he could avoid dealing with the pure stuff. His specification was to mix the nicotine to a specified concentrate level with USP grade PG. He received a pinkish batch from the laboratory due to a pinkish batch of USP PG provided by the laboratory. They assured him it was not an issue as the PG was indeed USP grade, although tinted. The stuff vaped, tasted, and smelled fine so he took the lab at their word.

Discussing this with Chris later, I gave the opinion that the lab was full of crap as USP PG should have no tint whatsoever even if be from an innocuous dye. He had already come to the same conclusion, and had specified to the lab that the USP PG must be colorless. He's gone a step further, and now controls the PG sourcing himself, using a bulk PG supplier I recommended whose PG meets USP, EP and Food Chemical Codex specifications. Hell, it's even Kosher. The lab will either use the PG he provides or they won't get the work. If there's a relevant specification, this PG meets it. He is working to cut this laboratory out of the mix entirely to control all stages of the mixing of the purified nicotine with PG. Naturally, he would have preferred this not have happened at all, but as it did happen, he's done the right thing via proactive steps to preclude anything like this from happening again.

This is direction the industry is moving: Total control over the process, from sourcing to mixing. Once a supplier get burned, and I suspect it's happened to all of them, the good ones quickly learn that they cannot leave anything to chance.

So there you have it, any unflavored concentrate we get from MSF will be at the stated concentration, (I'm looking at 10 mL of 150 mg right now, 2.5X more concentrated than MFS's highest 60 mg product, and it is crystal clear), and contain highly purified nicotine and USP/EP/FCC grade PG. It's the stuff I vape because I trust it, and I'll continue to trust it until and unless I find a reason not to.

 

[kinabaloo]

DVap - Interesting. Clears up the slight tint as havng nothing to do with nicotine (necessarily; as nic oxidises it would impart a golden tint i believe). Any idea why PG can have that pink tinge?

All the skin toners and such that are based on PG are always clear, so I thought perhaps it's an nteraction with the nic creating the slight color.

edit:

here's a photo of a pre-Ice sample that I took on receiving it:

http://www.tji-java-ide.com/e-cigar...e-range-from-tw&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=50

 

[Scottes]

Thank you very much DVap. Excellent info. I just ordered some from MSF, and if it tests out - to my senses - I'll buy a big bottle and save a ton of cash over Blip and Platinum.

 

[DVap]

DVap - Interesting. Clears up the slight tint as havng nothing to do with nicotine (necessarily; as nic oxidises it would impart a golden tint i believe). Any idea why PG can have that pink tinge?

All the skin toners and such that are based on PG are always clear, so I thought perhaps it's an nteraction with the nic creating the slight color.

The lab traced and acknowledged the pink tint as originating with the PG, pre-mixing. Had I been the chemist at the lab, that PG batch would have been rejected on the spot.

It's perhaps relevant also to note that our suppliers may have issues with the entities they deal with fully understanding and appreciating the intended use of the materials they provide.

kin, please clarify on the photo: "Pre-Ice", is that something you got from TW?

 

[kinabaloo]

The lab traced and acknowledged the pink tint as originating with the PG, pre-mixing. Had I been the chemist at the lab, that PG batch would have been rejected on the spot.

It's perhaps relevant also to note that our suppliers may have issues with the entities they deal with fully understanding and appreciating the intended use of the materials they provide.

kin, please clarify on the photo: "Pre-Ice", is that something you got from TW?

Not from TW, but from Decadent Vapors when first developing liquids with the 99% nic. This was a development sample at the end of July, not from a for-sale batch. The Ice is clear by all reports.

 

[DVap]

Not from TW, but from Decadent Vapors when first developing liquids with the 99% nic. This was a development sample at the end of July, not from a for-sale batch. The Ice is clear by all reports.

Hmmm.. no idea why it should be tinted.

I've got a few mL left from a 48 mg MFS concentrate I received in late August, and 6 weeks later, it is still clear as water. I think I'll keep it around to see what happens.

 

[kinabaloo]

Hmmm.. no idea why it should be tinted.

I've got a few mL left from a 48 mg MFS concentrate I received in late August, and 6 weeks later, it is still clear as water. I think I'll keep it around to see what happens.

Sent you a PM.

 

[DVap]

Received your PM.

 

[Scottes]

All this secret message stuff has me on the edge of my seat.



LOL, just kidding. As much as I *want* to know, I do understand when one might wish to keep certain things quiet.

 

[exogenesis]

Warning : long post alert!

Four (further) bottles of TW 36ml/ml Flavourless juice:

Sample 5: 33% full (dropper top a bit loose) : 28.0 mg/ml
Sample 6: 90% full (dropper top tight) : 29.4 mg/ml
Sample 7: unopened (CHIP top) : 29.8 mg/ml
Sample 8: 66% full (CHIP top tight) : 29.6 mg/ml

Details in 3rd page of spreadsheet
http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/TW36titrate.xls

So pretty consistent (apart from the older loose top bottle),
so certainly not 18 mg/ml, but around 30 mg/ml.

Actually as a matter of integrity, I'm calling that slight question on test validity
for quite heavily 'formulated' juices like flavoured & even this flavourless juice.

We know it's certainly a good quantification method for pure pharma-grade juices (Plat.Ice etc).
But how do we know the pH of the flavourless hasn't been made 'milder'
(made more neutral by acid addition),
and the pH of the flavoured ones (cherry, banana) made 'harsher' (added alkali?).

Could we tell by this method?.
The answer is probably yes, given the ~17% 'missing' in the titre (36 coming out as 30 mg/ml).

The 'added citric acid' titration simulations (using CurTiPot, shown below)
required a substantial amount of citric acid to be added to alter the curve
significantly (i.e. so that we'd actually notice something had been added),
e.g around 1mg/ml just noticable, 5 mg/ml citric very noticable,
so I reckon in the samples in this post, the say ~3 to 5m/ml citric needed to cause
the 'missing' 6m/ml would be obvious,

Nevertheless it's still a possible interference with accuracy if there's less than
an obvious amount of acid/alkali added in the formulation.
What worries me a little is the initial pH in all the curves in this thread,
I feel it should be higher (~10.2 not 9.2), so again an uncertainty,
alleviated somewhat by the '36mg Tobacco', which came out at 36mg/ml,
having the same low starting pH.

Also this topic is being looked at by PillBox

Im aware of these tests and taking the data seriously. I am in contact with my suppliers and am asking for feedback and their opinions on these results.
I have been assured that if there are any discrepancies these will be address.
If proven to be correct then i am very concerned..

Nic levels wrong in TW liquid?
So integrity all round then

PS: DVap, thanks for that info about pinkish tinge being from the USP PG and not the nicotine,
had been a bit uncertain what that was all about. I pretty sure the pink tinge gets
darker with the age of the juice (if you leave it in the light particularly).


The 'pre-Ice' liquid was kept behind the scenes,
but I guess now it's been mentioned by Kin. & the product line is going
it's OK to discuss it (?) :
The 70 mg/ml PG version was definately pink tinged, the VG version is less pink,
and the PEG version is light beige. I guess all that comes from the carriers.
The PG product-line PI is confirmed as completely colourless ?

.

 

[DVap]

All this secret message stuff has me on the edge of my seat.

LOL, just kidding. As much as I *want* to know, I do understand when one might wish to keep certain things quiet.

Naw, nothing particularly secret going on. kin likes to explore any and all avenues of possibility, with a thoroughness that is breathtaking. He wanted to toss me a couple unlikely possibilities with the idea that they're at least worth discussing, while not publicly being alarmist.

My greater concern that shadows all of this is the FDA. They like making rules, it's what they do. Seeing as they clearly have it in for e-cigs, they have several options to mess with us, among them:

1. A total ban on hardware.

Fine, but prohibition doesn't work. Look at the 1920's, look at the bustling drug trade. Also, they can't ban batteries, they can't ban USB, they can't ban nickel/chromium resistance wire.

2. A total ban on e-liquids and e-liquid imports.

Fine, but prohibition doesn't work. Look at the 1920's, look at the bustling drug trade.

3. Regulation/taxation.

Yea, I look forward to "government juice".

When folks perceive over-regulation and over taxation, given the option, they will haul up the jolly roger and set sail. Look at the practice of moonshine production despite legal alternatives.

My forum avatar is based on one simple principle: The genie is out of the bottle, and the FDA cannot put it back in, try as they might.

 

[kinabaloo]

A lot of good work there Exo. I'll leave it to DVap to comment in detail

Interestingly, although somewhat left-field, here is a recipe for orange squash, showing how much citric acid is used to give that tangy taste:

10 oranges, juice and zest of (which should give you 1 litre of orange juice)
4 lemons, juice and zest of (which should give you 300ml of lemon juice)
500ml water
300g sugar
40g citric acid
Powered by Google Docs

So aside from what is already in the fruit, 40,000mg in 1000ml = 40mg/ml I.e., a lot

If e-liquid manufacturers use fruit flavors designed for food, citric acid might already be in the flavor concentrate (?)

Quite aside from itself potentially decomposing on heating, it might salt-out some of the nicotine(?); if not significantly in the juice then perhaps at heat up time.

Good to hear that TW is onto it.

Scottes - sometimes i don't notice new mail for days, hence the 'PM sent'. A popup to indicate new mail would be nice.

 

[DVap]

Warning : long post alert!

Four (further) bottles of TW 36ml/ml Flavourless juice:

Sample 5: 33% full (dropper top a bit loose) : 28.9 mg/ml
Sample 6: 90% full (dropper top tight) : 29.4 mg/ml
Sample 7: unopened (CHIP top) : 29.8 mg/ml
Sample 8: 66% full (CHIP top tight) : 29.6 mg/ml

Details in 3rd page of spreadsheet
http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/TW36titrate.xls

So pretty consistent (apart from the older loose top bottle),
so certainly not 18 mg/ml, but around 30 mg/ml.

Actually as a matter of integrity, I'm calling that slight question on test validity
for quite heavily 'formulated' juices like flavoured & even this flavourless juice.

We know it's certainly a good quantification method for pure pharma-grade juices (Plat.Ice etc).
But how do we know the pH of the flavourless hasn't been made 'milder'
(made more neutral by acid addition),
and the pH of the flavoured ones (cherry, banana) made 'harsher' (added alkali?).

Could we tell by this method?.
The answer is probably yes, given the ~17% 'missing' in the titre (36 coming out as 30 mg/ml).

The 'added citric acid' titration simulations (using CurTiPot, shown below)
required a substantial amount of citric acid to be added to alter the curve
significantly (i.e. so that we'd actually notice something had been added),
e.g around 1mg/ml just noticable, 5 mg/ml citric very noticable,
so I reckon in the samples in this post, the say ~3 to 5m/ml citric needed to cause
the 'missing' 6m/ml would be obvious,

Nevertheless it's still a possible interference with accuracy if there's less than
an obvious amount of acid/alkali added in the formulation.
What worries me a little is the initial pH in all the curves in this thread,
I feel it should be higher (~10.2 not 9.2), so again an uncertainty,
alleviated somewhat by the '36mg Tobacco', which came out at 36mg/ml,
having the same low starting pH.

Also this topic is being looked at by PillBox


Nic levels wrong in TW liquid?
So integrity all round then

PS: DVap, thanks for that info about pinkish tinge being from the USP PG and not the nicotine,
had been a bit uncertain what that was all about. I pretty sure the pink tinge gets
darker with the age of the juice (if you leave it in the light particularly).


The 'pre-Ice' liquid was kept behind the scenes,
but I guess now it's been mentioned by Kin. & the product line is going
it's OK to discuss it (?) :
The 70 mg/ml PG version was definately pink tinged, the VG version is less pink,
and the PEG version is light beige. I guess all that comes from the carriers.
The PG product-line PI is confirmed as completely colourless ?

.

Exo, thanks for the additional data.

It is quite possible that unknown components can affect my colorimetric determination and also your metered determination. This is something I acknowledged long ago on the nicotine thread as a potential limitation. It was for this reason that in the strictest sense, I feel this determination is most appropriate for concentrates which should contain no acidic or basic species [Edit: other than nicotine!]

A question that bullets to the top of the queue is "So, does TW 36 mg unflavored contain acidic species?". When we hear the term, "unflavored, we immediately tend to think of just PG, nicotine, and perhaps VG. Neither PG nor VG exert influence over pH. I could, given a couple hours, separate the nicotine from a bottle of TW 36 mg unflavored and any possible acidic species. Honestly, I'd rather not go to the trouble.

Since now it is apparent that TW is aware of these results via postings from their users on their own forum, they should be able to get to the bottom of it. I expect them to find that either their supplier (remember, the non-PI product line is not entirely UK sourced and produced) is not delivering stated potency, or that there is an acidic species present that affects pH based determinations.

I'm still left scratching my head on why the 24 mg liquids that Exo tested determined clearly on the high side.

 

[exogenesis]

Kin. I strongly suspect that the fruity flavours in all juices are
'smell-alikes' (or taste-alikes) rather than actually fruit juice derived.
NickOTeen could probably give a whole load of details about the actual
chemicals involved.

DVap, i doubt if the Chinese (or wherever) suppliers will let on what's in their juices,
in terms of 'modifiers', the chemical ingredient lists that I've seen
don't mention and acid/alkali (I think), but they might not have considered
it important, in the given context.

The 'higher than' 24 juices were presumably just variation in formulation,
I doubt they'd deliberately give away extra nicotine ?

Will be interesting to see what Pillbox can garner from his supplier(s),
hopefully I'll be proved wrong and the flavourless really is 36mg/ml

Whatever, it's certainly not 18 mg/ml, which was the problem the OP
is really all about.

edit: as just pointed out in the TW thread, all of this variablility is hardly
likely to be specific to TW's chinese juices,
how many volunteers do you reckon there'll be likely to be for free samples for testing ?

.

 

[Scottes]

Scottes - sometimes i don't notice new mail for days, hence the 'PM sent'. A popup to indicate new mail would be nice.

No worries, really. I've just been following this thread intently, and I got a momentary feeling of missing some important info that was being kept hidden from me. Within a second I laughed at myself.