Hcigar HB DNA 40 anticipation thread

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retird

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A big thanks to everyone who have provided additional information over the last two days. As I have other devices to use currently I will be waiting until I can do the grounding fix before I continue to use the hcigar. I have not gotten the Weak Battery error. It would just ease my mind to attempt the simple fix. Like Mark Todd's unit, mine works. And if it was not for this thread, I would not have an issue using the device "as is". For all I know, I could continue to use the device until I retire it without ever running into the Weak Battery error. I am hoping I can find 22 gauge wire tonight. I went to two RC hobby shops yesterday and they did not carry gauges this small.

And thanks Mark Todd for your quick video on the device, explaining that yours just works as expected (minus the few negatives) and that there may be an issue with the grounding wire. Hopefully it will save some time for the customer, the vender, and Evolv, as you can reach more people, to inform them, than we can.

If I might just add a bit more about this issue: It has/is being discussed in other forums and facebook pages. The issue seems more prevalent when the device is used at higher temperature and wattage settings (higher amperage draw) bringing about the "weak battery message".
 

qorax

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Mark's unit has the same empty board negative pin as the others.. Per what Brandon (and others) have observed, the wiring is not "done right".. The fact that Vape Triad spotted this causing Weak Battery issues in many units, is going to the trouble of "fixing" it, and keeping their customer's in the loop speaks volumes IMO... ;) If you meant neat and clean, I agree 100%.. :)

Yep, I meant the layout :)
 

Genghis

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If I might just add a bit more about this issue: It has/is being discussed in other forums and facebook pages. The issue seems more prevalent when the device is used at higher temperature and wattage settings (higher amperage draw) bringing about the "weak battery message".

Thanks retird for the addition. Yes, from what I've read so far in this thread, it does sound like the error has a larger chance of occurring for the power user. As I'm not a power use, I am probably safe from this issue. I would just feel more comfortable with the fix. I haven't heard on a non-power user running into the issue thus far, but this could change.

More discussions? I spent a good amount of time looking for information on Friday and Saturday, but I could not find much additional information. This, or my web search skills are in decline. I'll have to look later when I have more time. Again work is keeping me from wasting my time on the internet.
 

retird

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Thanks retird for the addition. Yes, from what I've read so far in this thread, it does sound like the error has a larger chance of occurring for the power user. As I'm not a power use, I am probably safe from this issue. I would just feel more comfortable with the fix. I haven't heard on a non-power user running into the issue thus far, but this could change.

More discussions? I spent a good amount of time looking for information on Friday and Saturday, but I could not find much additional information. This, or my web search skills are in decline. I'll have to look later when I have more time. Again work is keeping me from wasting my time on the internet.

Yep a simple fix by Hcigar and the issue becomes history...it should not be up to the customer or vendor to "fix" it....Hcigar moving toward authenic mods (their own designs) requires them to "put on their big boy pants" and correct their design when necessary.
 

Croak

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It doesn't require them to do anything of the sort. Highly desirable for the consumer that they do so, but all they're doing different here from what they did in the past is stuffing a $30 wholesale board into a $5 box, instead of stuffing a $5 wholesale board into a $5 box.
 
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Vapenstein

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let me get this straight because I am not a modder nor do I have an understanding of electronics past using an ohm's law calculator

If I vape conventionally at 39w with a .5 ohm coil, I am running just under 9a. So far my unit has performed as expected and I am trying to determine if I need to get this fix done.

Temp control runs a coil with a lot less resistance, so amps are higher, but at the same time wattage is constantly in flux as the chip throttles power to manage temperature. Right? So, in temp control am I putting more or less strain on the battery than I would vaping conventionally? Thanks for helping me get a grasp on this.
 

Chuck2

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let me get this straight because I am not a modder nor do I have an understanding of electronics past using an ohm's law calculator

If I vape conventionally at 39w with a .5 ohm coil, I am running just under 9a. So far my unit has performed as expected and I am trying to determine if I need to get this fix done.

Temp control runs a coil with a lot less resistance, so amps are higher, but at the same time wattage is constantly in flux as the chip throttles power to manage temperature. Right? So, in temp control am I putting more or less strain on the battery than I would vaping conventionally? Thanks for helping me get a grasp on this.

Thanks for asking this. I am hoping to learn from HCigar's mistake. I'll be building a DNA40 in the next few days and want to avoid as many issues as I can.
 

Technonut

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let me get this straight because I am not a modder nor do I have an understanding of electronics past using an ohm's law calculator

If I vape conventionally at 39w with a .5 ohm coil, I am running just under 9a. So far my unit has performed as expected and I am trying to determine if I need to get this fix done.

Temp control runs a coil with a lot less resistance, so amps are higher, but at the same time wattage is constantly in flux as the chip throttles power to manage temperature. Right? So, in temp control am I putting more or less strain on the battery than I would vaping conventionally? Thanks for helping me get a grasp on this.


I see it this way.. Regardless of how you're running the mod, having it wired properly (as can be) is more of a peace of mind / preventative measure thing than anything.. With some of these 30 day manufacturer warranties with NO returns or exchanges going around, I wouldn't want to take a chance of something smoking the board after that, and needing to remove it for Evolv's warranty service...

Hopefully one of our members who can technically answer your question better than I will be along soon... :)
 

scaredmice

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let me get this straight because I am not a modder nor do I have an understanding of electronics past using an ohm's law calculator

If I vape conventionally at 39w with a .5 ohm coil, I am running just under 9a. So far my unit has performed as expected and I am trying to determine if I need to get this fix done.

Temp control runs a coil with a lot less resistance, so amps are higher, but at the same time wattage is constantly in flux as the chip throttles power to manage temperature. Right? So, in temp control am I putting more or less strain on the battery than I would vaping conventionally? Thanks for helping me get a grasp on this.


The thing about VV/VW and their electronics control module is that they effectively seperate atomizers and batteries. It's like it appeared a voltage transformer between both parts (and in many senses it is). They call it DC-DC converter, and their maths are relatively simple. All the energy (or energy per time unit, i. e. power) drawn from the battery is converted in the same energy (power) applied to the atomizer, it just interchanges voltages and currents. but remembering that P = V * I it's a simple math.....

Well, there are some energy losses inside the converter, a yield (or efficiency) factor involved, which usually falls in the 0,90 through 0,96 (or 90% up to 96%), which means that the energy drawn from the battery is partially lost (the difference between 100 and the yield in %) as heat in the innards of the converter. It's an unavoidable toll to get constant power through the decay of the batteries.

Having said all that, your applied current through the atomizer, even in the case of very low resistance (nickel and temperature control active), doesn't matter much. It's about power applied, and then requested to the battery, plus the losses. The batteries always works at its natural voltage output (4,2 fully charged, and so on), so it doesn't matter (at first approach) how the electronics feed the atomizers, it does count how much power the electronics pull from the battery, and from that power, the current is fixed by the P = V * I formula, as V is a fixed parameter.

On second approach, yields do change over the current and power applied over the atomizer, but its changing is not so big if you work between boundaries of the electronics (and usually the electronics are controlled by some logics to cut output outside the boundaries, hence the low resistance, check atomizer, high load, etc., messages).

Some people have said that as the electronics cut off partially power once the temperature of the coil pass over the setting point, in this mode the power consumption (i.e. draw from the batteries) is even lower. But that supposes you're running your atomizer dangerously near the dry-hit without temperature control. My opinion is that temperature control is a big step forward, but it cannot improve our taste buds, and surely it wasn’t their intention: they are far better detectors of the 'dry-hit' situation......:p

About your example:
.../...
If I vape conventionally at 39w with a .5 ohm coil, I am running just under 9a. So far my unit has performed as expected and I am trying to determine if I need to get this fix done.
.../...

39 W of power plus the losses are drawn from the batteries, now the resistance does not count, we have the power! The 'at X Ω' does not add more relevant info . Let's say for the sake of this example they are about 50 %, that is, at 3,7 V of output voltage. In the side of the atomizer (with 0,5 Ω coil) you are effectively putting about 8,8 A, but in the side of the batteries, with a typical 93% of yield, you are pulling out 42 W, and at 3,7 V that means 11 A. The atomizer resistance (being that with nickel or with any other material) does not count for these calculations, it only appears in the atomizer side once you need to know the current applied, but with very different resistances (like kanthal and nickel ones), provided they are inside the electronic boundaries, the power and battery drain are essentially the same.

Now about the 'weak battery' message. DC-DC converters monitor the voltage output of batteries so they can warn us about their state (cut off near depletion). They do that in two ways: monitoring voltage output without load (it should be over 3,2 - 3,4 V) and monitoring the voltage drop when batteries are under load. If the voltage drop is bigger than some specified parameter the converter interprets this as a low battery or a weak battery, if the voltage without load appears normal.

But in your HCig mods, or at least some of them, the battery is not properly connected to the board. Under heavy loads (near the 40 W upper limit) the improper connection adds some voltage drop to the battery under load, and the converter takes that as a weak battery, but instead is a weak connection. Same happens with the improper battery, one that cannot pull out enough current due to its internal resistance or state. Improve the connection (taking out the anodized, putting additional wiring) and the problem will be fixed.

Just to end this hefty volume (someone should cut my fingers!....:facepalm:), the equations involved, a derivative of the well known ones from Ohm's law:
Captura%2Bde%2Bpantalla%2B-%2B240215%2B-%2B21%3A17%3A36.png


where η is the greek letter 'eta', usually used for this yield/efficiency matters in engineering and physics.... According to Evolv's statements, DNA40 is rated at 93%.
 
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Technonut

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The thing about VV/VW and their electronics control module is that they effectively seperate atomizers and batteries. It's like it appeared a voltage transformer between both parts (and in many senses it is). They call it DC-DC converter, and their maths are relatively simple. All the energy (or energy per time unit, i. e. power) drawn from the battery is converted in the same energy (power) applied to the atomizer, it just interchanges voltages and currents. but remembering that P = V * I it's a simple math.....

Well, there are some energy losses inside the converter, a yield (or efficiency) factor involved, which usually falls in the 0,90 through 0,96 (or 90% up to 96%), which means that the energy drawn from the battery is partially lost (the difference between 100 and the yield in %) as heat in the innards of the converter. It's an unavoidable toll to get constant power through the decay of the batteries.

Having said all that, your applied current through the atomizer, even in the case of very low resistance (nickel and temperature control active), doesn't matter much. It's about power applied, and then requested to the battery, plus the losses. The batteries always works at its natural voltage output (4,2 fully charged, and so on), so it doesn't matter (at first approach) how the electronics feed the atomizers, it does count how much power the electronics pull from the battery, and from that power, the current is fixed by the P = V * I formula, as V is a fixed parameter.

On second approach, yields do change over the current and power applied over the atomizer, but its changing is not so big if you work between boundaries of the electronics (and usually the electronics are controlled by some logics to cut output outside the boundaries, hence the low resistance, check atomizer, high load, etc., messages).

Some people have said that as the electronics cut off partially power once the temperature of the coil pass over the setting point, in this mode the power consumption (i.e. draw from the batteries) is even lower. But that supposes you're running your atomizer dangerously near the dry-hit without temperature control. My opinion is that temperature control is a big step forward, but it cannot improve our taste buds, and surely it wasn’t their intention: they are far better detectors of the 'dry-hit' situation......:p

About your example:


39 W of power plus the losses are drawn from the batteries, now the resistance does not count, we have the power! The 'at X Ω' does not add more relevant info . Let's say for the sake of this example they are about 50 %, that is, at 3,7 V of output voltage. In the side of the atomizer (with 0,5 Ω coil) you are effectively putting about 8,8 A, but in the side of the batteries, with a typical 93% of yield, you are pulling out 42 W, and at 3,7 V that means 11 A. The atomizer resistance (being that with nickel or with any other material) does not count for these calculations, it only appears in the atomizer side once you need to know the current applied, but with very different resistances (like kanthal and nickel ones), provided they are inside the electronic boundaries, the power and battery drain are essentially the same.

Just to end this hefty volume (someone should cut my fingers!....:facepalm:), the equations involved, a derivative of the well known ones from Ohm's law:
Captura%2Bde%2Bpantalla%2B-%2B240215%2B-%2B21%3A17%3A36.png


where η is the greek letter 'eta', usually used for this yield/efficiency matters in engineering and physics.... According to Evolv's statements, DNA40 is rated at 93%.



Impressive, informative, and well-written.. :thumbs: That said:


mind-blowing.jpg
 

retird

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The thing about VV/VW and their electronics control module is that they effectively seperate atomizers and batteries. It's like it appeared a voltage transformer between both parts (and in many senses it is). They call it DC-DC converter, and their maths are relatively simple. All the energy (or energy per time unit, i. e. power) drawn from the battery is converted in the same energy (power) applied to the atomizer, it just interchanges voltages and currents. but remembering that P = V * I it's a simple math.....

Well, there are some energy losses inside the converter, a yield (or efficiency) factor involved, which usually falls in the 0,90 through 0,96 (or 90% up to 96%), which means that the energy drawn from the battery is partially lost (the difference between 100 and the yield in %) as heat in the innards of the converter. It's an unavoidable toll to get constant power through the decay of the batteries.

Having said all that, your applied current through the atomizer, even in the case of very low resistance (nickel and temperature control active), doesn't matter much. It's about power applied, and then requested to the battery, plus the losses. The batteries always works at its natural voltage output (4,2 fully charged, and so on), so it doesn't matter (at first approach) how the electronics feed the atomizers, it does count how much power the electronics pull from the battery, and from that power, the current is fixed by the P = V * I formula, as V is a fixed parameter.

On second approach, yields do change over the current and power applied over the atomizer, but its changing is not so big if you work between boundaries of the electronics (and usually the electronics are controlled by some logics to cut output outside the boundaries, hence the low resistance, check atomizer, high load, etc., messages).

Some people have said that as the electronics cut off partially power once the temperature of the coil pass over the setting point, in this mode the power consumption (i.e. draw from the batteries) is even lower. But that supposes you're running your atomizer dangerously near the dry-hit without temperature control. My opinion is that temperature control is a big step forward, but it cannot improve our taste buds, and surely it wasn’t their intention: they are far better detectors of the 'dry-hit' situation......:p

About your example:


39 W of power plus the losses are drawn from the batteries, now the resistance does not count, we have the power! The 'at X Ω' does not add more relevant info . Let's say for the sake of this example they are about 50 %, that is, at 3,7 V of output voltage. In the side of the atomizer (with 0,5 Ω coil) you are effectively putting about 8,8 A, but in the side of the batteries, with a typical 93% of yield, you are pulling out 42 W, and at 3,7 V that means 11 A. The atomizer resistance (being that with nickel or with any other material) does not count for these calculations, it only appears in the atomizer side once you need to know the current applied, but with very different resistances (like kanthal and nickel ones), provided they are inside the electronic boundaries, the power and battery drain are essentially the same.

Now about the 'weak battery' message. DC-DC converters monitor the voltage output of batteries so they can warn us about their state (cut off near depletion). They do that in two ways: monitoring voltage output without load (it should be over 3,2 - 3,4 V) and monitoring the voltage drop when batteries are under load. If the voltage drop is bigger than some specified parameter the converter interprets this as a low battery or a weak battery, if the voltage without load appears normal.

But in your HCig mods, or at least some of them, the battery is not properly connected to the board. Under heavy loads (near the 40 W upper limit) the improper connection adds some voltage drop to the battery under load, and the converter takes that as a weak battery, but instead is a weak connection. Same happens with the improper battery, one that cannot pull out enough current due to its internal resistance or state. Improve the connection (taking out the anodized, putting additional wiring) and the problem will be fixed.

Just to end this hefty volume (someone should cut my fingers!....:facepalm:), the equations involved, a derivative of the well known ones from Ohm's law:
Captura%2Bde%2Bpantalla%2B-%2B240215%2B-%2B21%3A17%3A36.png


where η is the greek letter 'eta', usually used for this yield/efficiency matters in engineering and physics.... According to Evolv's statements, DNA40 is rated at 93%.

Excellent.... worth repeating without editing out any of it....full post quoted again.... THX
 

Technonut

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lol. I wouldn't pay that for any DNA 40 device, let alone the hciggy.

Hana Modz has some blemished V3 Pack DNA 40's under Specials on their site for $149.00... Considering Vape Triad's $148.13 USD price now for the HB, I'd MUCH rather have the Hana... ;)
 

Cotay

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