Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

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mgordon1100

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why all this obsession about one person saying the behavior was "criminal"? Would you like the word "unethical" better or "negligent" or "sloppy" or ? What word is ok to use when we are talking about something inhaled not being at the strength advertised?

Because, when you're opposing a company like this, it's best not to over dramatize the truth. An example, would be certain evangelistic people who called Frank Zappa a devil worshiper. He never was, and never believed in "the devil". All it did was make the accusers look ridiculous. I wouldn't want anyone here looking ridiculous by throwing around words like that when it isn't truth.
 

mgordon1100

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Tell me, if whoever sent that sample in had spilled it and ended up in a hospital bed would be still be wondering if shipping that bottle in the first place was criminal?
That's a completely different subject. As it stands now, you can't ship alcohol through the USPS. That's their rule, and if someone breaks it, it may be considered criminal. I'm not even sure. Maybe not, depends on law, which I don't have knowledge of. As it stands now, I'm fairly certain that these things are not governed at all in regards to shipping. All these suppliers wouldn't be shipping the stuff if there was.
 

randyith

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So glad I didn't buy BE. This is really scary stuff. As is the larger question, how many juice vendors use them?

A lot of people use them. We opened in July with $5,000 sales, broke $70,000 in September and almost broke $100,000 in October. Our business model was to put them out of business and take their customers. We think we are now the third largest nicotine distributor in the USA. We estimate our #1 competitor is doing $300,000 per month and number 2 is around $200,000 per month. At $100,000 per month I am supplying about 30 smaller companies; however, I sell 20% wholesale to Russia and Eastern Europe. Estimate I have read claim there to be 500 to 600 companies in the US selling ready to vape juice. So I am only supplying about 5% of the USA resellers. In order to withstand future FDA rules and big tobacco one company has to control this industry to have the resources to prevail. In 2 years US tobacco will put us all out of business in my opinion.
 
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vocr

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From am American legal dictionary under Criminal Negligence:

legal dictionary said:
The failure to use reasonable care to avoid consequences that threaten or harm the safety of the public and that are the foreseeable outcome of acting in a particular manner.

Wiki's more detailed take on it: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Criminal_negligence

You be the judge.

For me, I would want to dedicate some of my free time to make sure this company is punished if they were in my country. Its one thing to weaken nic juice, that's cheating and we all know cheating happens. But to make it so strong, and at 272mg that has the potential to cause serious personal harm, is criminal negligence in my option.

I had a bottle of Healthcabin nic juice tested early on when I started vaping, it was perfectly at 36mg as advertised. I have a bottle of Box Elder I got last month and haven't used yet, I'm taking that to the lab when I get a chance next week.

This one is for Kinabaloo, to all the China basters on this forum, can we now tramp down the bashing and agree that there is no national/country based issue involved? Its just us (as brother and sister consumers and vapers) vs them (profiteers of our habit).
 
The attitude of RTS (Randy) is the model of what is, in my opinion, the core value needed for DIY and vender success; Transparency and a willingness to be scrutinized and open to testing. RTS has been ( and I have no affiliation with them)the producer I recommend from my own experience. The esperience of others who have purchased larger quantities appears similar to mine. One poor vender can ruin an industry based on trust. One open vender and others that follow can overcome the mistrust. The mere statement that I am open to whatever it takes is a step forward. The anti's and regulatory bodies tend to recall only the negatives. All industries have recalls. We need that capacity and need strict but workable self regulation. Police thyself with outside independent testing. Quality control of every batch. Industrial standards. If we don't do it someone else will. Kudos to Randy.
 

ChaosAffect

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Just an fyi, since it hasn't been stated in this thread: Box Elder and Gourmet Vapor are the same company, along with another juice vendor, can't remember the name but they're the one that has ridiculous sales on 5ml bottles every 6 months and get backed up. Like .60 a bottle. Little help? Anyways, Box Elder may not be a supplier here, but the others are... and they're all run by one Guy.

Oh, yeah. Honeyville is the other one.
 

zomgname

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Just an fyi, since it hasn't been stated in this thread: Box Elder and Gourmet Vapor are the same company, along with another juice vendor, can't remember the name but they're the one that has ridiculous sales on 5ml bottles every 6 months and get backed up. Like .60 a bottle. Little help? Anyways, Box Elder may not be a supplier here, but the others are... and they're all run by one Guy.

Oh, yeah. Honeyville is the other one.

Dang... gourmet vapor is the same company?? This is scary stuff and I had thought I found my add day vape custom creation from there :( sigh back to trying more vendors... with a LOT more caution, after reading through all of this. Never messed with DIY stuff and don't intend to but if the vendors use these suppliers for their own juices it's very, very scary.
 

mgordon1100

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I didn't understand your question. when you say be, do you mean Box Elder, on which be is BE or be? Very confusing sentence, you wrote there.

I see your next reply. If the recipient of the BE nic had been hurt, then yes. BE is responsible for that. In a case of brakes failing, the shop that installed the faulty brakes should be held responsible if someone got hurt. If nobody was hurt, then there is no criminal act. I don't even think it's criminal if someone does get hurt, but they are held liable, and can be fined, but not jailed.

I think the differences between criminal and liable can be drawn on whether or not you can be jailed.
 

Tom10

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I thank you also for this information, very eye opening and surprising to me. I have gotten nic from ecigexpress and one stop DIY. Has anybody had issues with these? So amazing and surprising how they are so far off!

I've bought and mixed numerous batches of e-nic from One Stop DIY with no problems at all. I'm still here and in one piece.
 

Seabrook

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Lot number for the BE 100 mg PG, which was actually 121 mg, is 256.
Lot number for the BE 100 mg PG, which was actually 272 mg, is 257.

I do not have the lot numbers for the others I posted. Can those people please PM me if they have this info?

Kurt, I don't see one in your post that says it was 121mg. It says one was 120mg - is that the one your are talking about? Please and thank you.
 

Tom10

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As I understand it, it's criminal if there is intent, if they know there is a problem and ignore it. It's liable since they are a chemical company purported to be knowledgeable about nicotine. Even vendors who's business is harmed by this can have a liable claim against BE. If there are injuries they better have good liability insurance.

If they knew the product was mislabeled, they are criminally liable.

If they should have known the product was mislabeled, they might be criminally liable.

If they didn't know the product was mislabeled, they are probably civilly liable.

If they didn't know the product was mislabeled and there is no reasonable requirement for them to check, they might not even be civilly liable. One would and should argue reasonable actions of reasonable people when you're talking about a product containing deadly poison, especially at higher concentrations. This is called the reasonable man doctrine and it applies to many points in the law - both criminal and civil.
 

Fernand

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Certified, shmertified, emonty. What exactly does that mean in your experience? Certified by whom to do what?

Kurt is right to be especially PO'd about the letter saying all is well. Especially if Gourmet Vapor IS BoxElder etc. But I'm with some of the other voices here. This is either 1) an incompetent lab tech making mistakes or 2) bad compounding or labeling at their upstream source. Of course there's an upstream source, I don't think they're out there milking tobacco plants in the Utah desert. The fact that samples are coming in all over the map is even more disturbing, some high, other low. And even that doesn't answer the question as to where the problem lies. In any case, it's not the end of the world. Not very likely anyone would die at 2.7 times nominal level.

I'd like to point out that this is just the tip of the iceberg, if you want to go catastrophist. When you consider there are many juice vendors selling sweet juice flavored with what is known to be a highly toxic flavoring family, namely buttery diketones like acetylpropionyl, diacetyl and others, and many vapers STILL arguing that it can't be THAT toxic, since they are still alive, or defective atomizers with glowing coil loops breaking down VG, it's pretty clear this is only a drop in the proverbial bucket. If you want to go paranoid, there's no end to it.

I think we need to calm down and try to stick to the issues. I for one would like BE/Gourmet vapor to fully disclose exactly how this happened, on which lots/shipments and what they are doing to correct it.
 
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emonty

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Certified from the UK, from the laboratory that makes the nic for patches and gum, I know them, they are operating under very strict rules and regulations all because the pharmacies sell that. So would that answer your question?
Certified, shmertified, emonty. What exactly does that mean in your experience? Certified by whom to do what?
 
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