Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[orachel]

I'm so grateful that you guys with the skillset and knowhow have taken it upon yourselves to independently evaluate and do this testing that protects ALL of us. I'm just delving into DIY, and I have to say this has been a bit of an eyeopener.

As to the vendors of premixed liquid... My favorite vendor of flavored e-liquids has addressed this issue very clearly, supplied us with her sourcing of nic e liquids (a very well respected vendor who has participated willingly with this testing), and stated that she never works with e-liquids higher than 48 nic in her dedicated eliquid kitchen just to be extra safe. That was extremely comforting to me.

I was wondering if other eliquid vendors of premixed liquids have done the same? And is there a way to consolidate that info? I used to buy from a ton of juice vendors, and was wondering if there's a single thread or place where we can go see their policies on nic sourcing etc for safety. Anything like that going on? For example, if I want to buy juice from vendor a or vendor f, I can go to one spot and see the posted safety practices that each of them use. Make sense?

...and i apologize if this has already been covered. I read thru about 20 pages of this thread and threw in the towel and just decided to ask my question. Thanks!

 

[Nunnster]

That was a long thread to read. After reading each one, all I can say is Wow. There are a lot of valid points made here. I have a few questions as well, but they have already been asked. IMO I do not see the vaping industry as cut thought as BE makes it seem or imply's , for another company or 3rd party wanting to start a smear campaign, but I might be wrong. In all my experiences with company's that supply vape stuff, they themselves are vapers. I say this for two reasons. Firstly, this issue just wont smear BE's good name, it could also have major implication for the industry on a whole. Secondly, Although I believe that there are some major QC issues here, and a lot of confusion and back-peddling put forth by BE, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. What I mean by this is that they might not have known that they were making over or under strength product. From what I read, they seem to over confident. I bet they got comfortable with their procedures, got complacent in the lab and mistakes were made unknown to The CEO. What I find appalling is the fact that I have not herd of them saying sorry to the consumers, weather or not the allegations or true. The first thing I would do is say sorry, shut down and do an investigation. I would not however say that I was every certain that it could not be true. That is just a blatant slap in the face to non "sheeple" who think and act for themselves. Also questioning the integrity of people without your own proof that they are wrong is morally irrehensible. My main fear now over this is as I am just new to DIY, I have to be even more careful with my measurements. Up until today, if my ejuice calc said "4.8 ml of nic to add" Id just add the extra .2 b/c I know that the extra mg or so of nic wouldn't hurt me. Now however, if say instead of getting 60mg nic Im getting 100mg nic, that might just be enough to get me sick. I will not say that I will never order from BE, however I would need a lot of things to come to light to do so.

 

[Hoosier]

Here is my stance, take it for what you will.

I consider myself a fairly experienced vaper and a pretty good DIY juice mixer. (Pride goeth before a fall..) I have been tapering down my nicotine intake since starting DIY. I am down to 20mg and started out at least double that. It takes me a long time to go between 2mg drops. I notice a difference in my Nic and track my consumption. When I drop 2mg, my consumption jumps up to more than compensate. I have used a number of different vendors and have mixed with mg levels above 100 in the past. This paragraph is merely to give a background.

The Nic I am currently using is BE and it is fine. It was a great price and good quality and I feel the Nic level is correct. I have no issues with the Nic I have now, but it will be my last BE Nic.

The problem I have is with the way things were handled when the first people having issues were raised. It took weeks to get a reply due to a week long hunting trip is what came out. Fine, I know how things get backed up when some folks take a break. It was a bit longer than I would expect, but I can give it a pass. Then the first mass email came into my inbox and it stated in no uncertain terms that the maximum Nic level that comes into the distribution site is 100mg. Then we have the 3rd party report and follow-up that I actually ranges from 120-140mg when it comes to distribution. I can forgive the slow response time and move on. I cannot forgive seeing contradictory statements from one person who should know all the details and has full responsibility in the span of less than 2 weeks. I call it a lie, and a poor lie as it could not be maintained for very long.

Then I listened to the broadcast, without the chat feed as I don't care what other watchers feel, and listened to it again this morning while working. I did not hear a clear cut concise plan to deal with the one issue the discussion boiled down to, mislabeling. I compared the tone of the two mass emails to what I was hearing, the words used too, and believe the email writer and the Brad speaking were one and the same. I respect the guy for appearing like I respect someone like Custer. Brave, but lacking in the morals I value and quite possibly over that line between bravery and stupidity. I cannot imagine not having a plan to correct the issues before they came up. Maybe I think that way because figuring out everything that can go wrong and making plans for it is part of my job. Maybe it is because I have seen CEO's that lack the morals I value destroy companies and hurt people I care about.

Whatever the reason, I cannot bring myself to trust the guy who calls himself the CEO of BE. And trust is an important quality to me and just not for mixing supplies. I do not have anything negative to think or say to those who do trust him. I'm firmly in the camp of letting others do as they wish so long as it doesn't hurt me, my family, and I get to see the video.

It is a very rare occation that I type this long on ECF in a serious manner or tone. I come here for the fun of it, but also to keep up with what is going on. I have followed many serious subjects here without actually getting serious myself. This one is a bit different to me.

 

[rolygate]

They could easily be charged with criminal negligence.

I don't see any crime here, as defined by something that would get a conviction in court, as they didn't deliberately intend to deprive customers of their money when the mix was too weak - it was an accident. In fact they supplied some customers with far too much, in a sort of compensation...

A charge of criminal negligence would tend to imply they knew what they were doing, or should have known better, and acted in a way that could and did result in injury, and that actual injury resulted. There doesn't seem to be any injury here, so it seems unlikely a court would uphold a conviction for this.

Negligence is a more likely candidate but again, getting a court to convict does not seem likely as the requirements would vary in different areas and only in the most strict would it have much chance.

The most likely offense that could realistically result in any kind of conviction here would be some form of sales or quality of merchandise offense. That definitely does have legs, but it depends on the State law that prevails. An attorney would need to comment on whether the State where the supply & sale or the purchase & delivery occurred has jurisdiction.

It seems unlikely that anything will occur here, though, as no injury or near-injury occurred - meaning that no one has any real motive to take it further. In addition, the defense would utilise the less-than-ideal chain of custody of the materials to suggest with some validity that they may have been interfered with.

The best result from this fiasco would be that vendors will take testing more seriously. A system that depends on everyone taking the word of the previous person in the supply chain is inherently flawed, and will lead to harm being caused at some point, when potentially toxic materials are being sold to consumers.

A vendor of potentially toxic materials has a duty of care to the customer, and not having proof of any testing procedures is almost certainly evidence that such duty of care was ignored. It is arguable whether anything of this sort is legally enforceable but it all depends on the sales regulations in the State with jurisdiction, and whether or not they have staff employed in enforcement (i.e. if they would take on a case of this sort). However if some sort of injury, or a death, occurred, then it becomes much more likely that someone would take some kind of action.

A vendor involved in such an incident might need to show proof of regular testing of some kind, in order to defend an action. It might be hard to prove that testing occurred or was of a sufficiently high standard if it was in-house. Currently it is probably the case that insufficient testing, of any kind, takes place. With luck two things will happen: vendors will get the message, and buyers will realise that if vendors don't test materials, they need to have absolute trust in their suppliers, or at least learn how to do basic tests before thinking about DIY.

 

[mgordon1100]

Thanks Roly, I couldn't have said it better myself. Who am I kidding? I couldn't have said as good, myself. What I'd like to see is a recall of lots produced between certain dates of purchase, from the evidence of individuals' reports. That's probably the first thing that BE should have said if they really want to get back into the good grace of the people.

 

[rolygate]

Perhaps all lots between Jan 1 and Dec 31, 2011?

 

[curiousJan]

I don't see any crime here, as defined by something that would get a conviction in court, as they didn't deliberately intend to deprive customers of their money when the mix was too weak - it was an accident. In fact they supplied some customers with far too much, in a sort of compensation...

Uhm "compensation" ... really?? The ECF Website Manager making light of a mistake (not an accident, a _mistake_) that could have killed someone is quite disconcerting to me.

I understand your points, Roly, and while you stated the "best result" allow me to state the worst: someone dies and the industry dies with them. Case Closed because that's all the evidence the FDA would need to shut things down.

Jan

 

[TallGrass]

From the original post,

I would say the intrinsic error is less than 2% for all of these. These results are as accurate as is obtainable, IMHO. I knew the one that gave the result of 272 mg was way high when I opened it, as it was so strong in nic odor that I had to work with it in a fume hood for the dilutions. It was also honey-amber, whereas the others were either colorless or slight yellow.

Not sure if its been answered but where did Kurt get the 272mg sample from?

 

[Hoosier]

...Not sure if its been answered but where did Kurt get the 272mg sample from?

All we know is that it was an ECF member that PM'd him. He asked if anyone was concerned with BE nic base they had to PM him for a shipping address and he would test it.

So far we have respected the PM privacy, but I admit that I am curious too.

 

[ScottB]

Perhaps all lots between Jan 1 and Dec 31, 2011?

Understood. But a recall would involve more than just DIY nic blends... as the product was/is used in GV finished goods as well. Process control measures would have to have been in place for the entire operation in order to accurately trace lots to their final in-house usage points & sale points. If they recalled only the DIY nic blends, everyone here would scream lack of credibility if they didn't include GV juice made from the lots in question, or if they couldn't produce acceptable evidence of separation of lots for direct sale from lots used for GV juice.

They're in an untenable situation.

 

[rolygate]

Uhm "compensation" ... really?? The ECF Website Manager making light of a mistake (not an accident, a _mistake_) that could have killed someone is quite disconcerting to me.

I understand your points, Roly, and while you stated the "best result" allow me to state the worst: someone dies and the industry dies with them. Case Closed because that's all the evidence the FDA would need to shut things down.

Jan

I feel you are being a little unfair to me. Ranting or thunderous accusations do no good. After banging on for ever about two inter-related factors that will inevitably lead to harm occurring - the way people will buy from just anyone, and the cheaper the better; and the fact that not one single vendor in the world publishes a regular test result of their finished product - there might be a danger people think my record is broken.

In the end I don't have the energy left to be angry or even frustrated any more. The only thing left is a little wry humor and an 'I-told-you-so'. And unless you make your voice heard within your consumer association nothing will be done about it, and when this all dies down things will go back to business as usual.

It's unlikely the FDA would be able to shut down any industry due to negligence by one business, but it will certainly add to the ammunition when regulations come up. Make no mistake about that.

 

[Urge]

rolygate wrote...

A charge of criminal negligence would tend to imply they knew what they were doing, or should have known better, and acted in a way that could and did result in injury, and that actual injury resulted. There doesn't seem to be any injury here, so it seems unlikely a court would uphold a conviction for this.

I think someone could have been injured and we would never find out. If they vaped it or spilled it on their skin and got sick or worse we wouldn't know unless they were a part of this forum and came here to alert us. They could also not understand what caused the problem. Would a doctor or the emergency room know that they had symptoms of nicotine poisoning? I would think that it is very rare for someone to go see a medical professional with nicotine poisoning. How many doctors would recognize it?

Urge

 

[TallGrass]

I'm sure there are plenty of people with big GV stashes right now that could easily verify the wild & crazy nic levels that Kurt showed in his testing.

^^ That is not to say that I don't trust Kurt. I'm just interested in confirmation.

 

[GoodDog]

Based on the posts in the other thread about BE smallmam had tested it originally with an eBay test kit and got approximately the same result. She then sent a sample to Kurt to test. So it's my understanding the sample came from smallmam. It was mentioned that it couldn't be traced back to the original purchaser but that apparently is incorrect.

I'm also concerned that BE didn't issue a recall since they were told of this problem quite awhile back. They were given plenty of time to investigate and make changes. Instead they chose to ignore their customers and deny it was even possible. Now we know that it is possible and that Brad is the "CEO" of 3 companies. I would assume that is Box Elder, who has 2 locations, one for receiving 99%+ nicotine and diluting it down to between 12%-14% and one that receives the diluted nicotine and sells it or uses it to make flavored eLiquid which is sold by his other 2 companies, GourmetVapor and Honeyville.

Many of his original statements to his customers in emails have proven to be incorrect, such as denying it was possible to send anything over 100mg and then later revising that to say his distribution center receives the diluted nicotine from his receiving company at 120mg-140mg.

It's possible the problem occurred in his receiving company that dilutes the 99% nicotine. I'm under the impression he is the one that dilutes it there but I could be wrong.

 

[hubseven]

I use Gourmet Vapor exclusively, what should be my level of concern. Thanks

 

[juicejunky]

While making a mistake may not be criminal, knowing there could be more 270mg out there and not doing something about it after it's brought to their attention could be.

Another thing we should be looking at with our vendors is their recall procedures. Do they keep lot numbers of ingredients for their orders in such a fashion that if mistakes happen they can quickly notify their customers for a recall? Maybe a number should be on every bottle sourcing the ingredients. After all we are consuming their product into our bodies.

Not every vaper reads ECF or watches VapeTV regularly. Vendors should have a way of directly contacting customers when problems arise. I sure hope BE did something behind the scenes to let their customers know as soon as they got wind of the error. I suppose the mass emails help, but there should be a clear warning to not vape any suspect nicotine.


If this is some kind of industrial sabotage they need to take a clue from how Tylenol handled theirs.

 

[Hoosier]

I use Gourmet Vapor exclusively, what should be my level of concern. Thanks

Be on the look-out for a fishy to old socks smell from the juice and too much TH or harsh taste for too high of nicotine.

Withdraw symptoms for too little nicotine.

The quality of the base is good from all indications, it is the level of actual nicotine that is suspect. You should have enough experience to know when it isn't right.

 

[curiousJan]

I feel you are being a little unfair to me. Ranting or thunderous accusations do no good. After banging on for ever about two inter-related factors that will inevitably lead to harm occurring - the way people will buy from just anyone, and the cheaper the better; and the fact that not one single vendor in the world publishes a regular test result of their finished product - there might be a danger people think my record is broken.

In the end I don't have the energy left to be angry or even frustrated any more. The only thing left is a little wry humor and an 'I-told-you-so'. And unless you make your voice heard within your consumer association nothing will be done about it, and when this all dies down things will go back to business as usual.

It's unlikely the FDA would be able to shut down any industry due to negligence by one business, but it will certainly add to the ammunition when regulations come up. Make no mistake about that.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. I don't feel I'm being unfair at all. You are in a position of 'authority' in the very place to where I send newbs to get information. I understand about the broken record and lack of energy things too, but they don't negate the responsibility of your position. You don't have to rant and rave ... but "wry humor" and "I-told-you-so" doesn't help the newbs that I send and undermines my confidence and comfort here in ECF-land.

Jan

 

[juicejunky]

I use Gourmet Vapor exclusively, what should be my level of concern. Thanks

Go to VapeTV and listen to the show and trust your gut on how you feel the company is handling the problem. If the ejuice seems okay to vape and you certainly have been vaping long enough to know, I certainly would use up what I had in stock.

 

[Kurt]

I think that Coz conducted an extremely professional interview in a fair and unbiased manner.

I did contact both Kurt and Brad to see if they wanted to come on my show last night to talk about this situation. Brad said that he would send me an email statement (he never did) and Kurt said that he was too busy. At first I was disappointed, but it turned out to be a good thing because we learned much more by this interview being done by Coz.

I'm glad that the interview happened on VapeTV, for two reasons. First, I think that Coz has better interviewing skills than me, and he probably got more information out of Brad that I might have been able to. Second, I think everybody learned a lot from the comments made in the chat room by Lu, Violet, and Blacksmith Pro, which would not have happened if the interview was on my show.

It is obvious that Lu, Violet, and BSP continued to defend Brad and berate other viewers who were coming down hard on Brad in the chat room because he is a VapeTV advertiser. Their reaction to this situation, and his comments, would have been much different if he were not a VapeTV advertiser.

I was on the fence as to wether Box Elder really did have any responsibility for dangerous eliquid being sent out. My comments on my show last night are on the record, and I said as much. After listening to Coz's show, my opinion has changed.

It's very clear to me now that there are some big problems with Box Elder. He admitted to sending out eliquid with the wrong nicotine level. Even with that admission, Lu, Violet, and BSP continued to defend Brad again and again and berate people making comments against Brad. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they defended him because Brad is an advertiser on VapeTV. It's disgusting. We're not talking about a mod or a cartomizer here - this is potentially lethal eliquid.

It's obvious to me that Box Elder is responsible for shipping out extremely dangerous product, and it's obvious that Lu, Violet, and BSP defended Brad because Brad gives VapeTV money for advertising. Anyone who thinks that their reaction to this news would have been the same if Brad were not a VapeTV advertiser is living in a fantasy world. Defending their advertiser is more important to VapeTV than stating the truth about an irresponsible vendor.

I used to be a VapeTV host, and I would give away products that I liked. I gave away mods and cartomizers and eliquid that I enjoyed using. One day Lu said that I was no longer allowed to do this, and that I would only be allowed to give away products from VapeTV advertisers. So most of the time I was stuck with giving away bottles of Gourmet Vapor eliquid.

I just realized that Lu gave me a bag of eliquid and a VapeTV sticker to give away but that never happened because they kicked me off VapeTV.

Anyone want it?

Actually, nevermind, I just gave it to the NYC Department of Sanitation.

View attachment 63262

I must apologize about my fickle nature last night. I decided at the last minute to do what I feared most, and was advised against: face the CEO of Box Elder on a vaping network that he is a paying advertiser for. In no way was my decision meant to insult you, and I very much appreciate the invitation. I really don't know any of the umteen vaping media people who are wanting to interview, quote or otherwise pick my brains. It has been a very surreal 48 hours for me. Frankly I was tempted to shun any interviews until I could wrap my head around what had transpired. But life can be a wave sometimes, and you have to chose between being dashed to the rocks or surf. So at 9:45 PM I decided to surf... with the sharks.

I never heard the panel discussion, and it sounds like I probably would be better off not. I think the part of the show with Brad and myself spoke for itself. Listen closely to Brad's responses. He admitted to the possibility of a lot, including that someone might have gotten high-nic base liquid. Its there. I tried to be very clear that I was not accusing anyone of anything, but that my data pointed to a very very serious problem, which can only be either in his facilities, given he has chemists, or else nefariously injected downstream by some saboteur. That is all.

Frankly, and that includes some comments here, anyone claiming a smear campaign when I am in possession of very deadly liquid now either simply does not understand the gravity of the situation, which I am happy to educate on, or is payed to say these things. I was actually told by another person in the vaping media that this in fact does happen here. Not surprised. Fine. People do what they gotta do. But if you ignore rigorous chemistry, the rules of which are quite constant, just because you don't understand it, or are being supported to deny its importance, well you are not doing yourselves any favors, and are just looking foolish, if not dangerous, considering. And that is the last you will hear me respond to your ridiculous empty rhetoric.

Another clue in this to support BE sourcing, and not downstream sabotage. So far, and I'm NOT making this up, all the too-high nic BE samples, save for one, are lots 256 or 257. I have not gotten the lot number from one of them yet from the customer. These have come from all over the country. Unless there was a behind the scenes conspiracy to REALLY fool everyone, the coincidence is too strong. Random people asked to come up with a lot number would not even know the format of it, let alone guess the right format and with only a difference of one. And one was from an original BE bottle. So it is even more pointing to BE QC.

My aim is not to smear anyone. Indeed, I do think BE nic is of high quality, and better than most. But the nic level problems simply must be identified and fixed, regardless of their origin. Brad simply must investigate this thoroughly.