Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[Fernand]

I find all of this absolutely insane..... What were they (BE) thinking, if they think at all. Could someone "link" me this kit that has been mentioned, or PM me a link? I would like to start testing all my nic. And can you test nic that is already mixed, ready to vape ?

Also, I thank you Kurt, for all you have done.

Stay calm. Unless you have a scientific interest in whether your concentrated nic is exactly as labeled, the important thing is whether it's way high. You should be able to tell, by whiffing it, that it's unusual before you even titrate it.

As to testing mixed juice, once you throw other stuff in there, I doubt you can get a very reliable titration. More important to test the nic you started with.

 

[Kurt]

Hi Kurt,

Just listened to the VapeTv interview about the Box Elder fiasco.

I think you mentioned a test that we, the end users, could do with a pH meter to get a 'ballpark' level of the nicotine in our e-liquid. I have one that I use often to test the levels of my hydroponic solutions, so I know how to calibrate it and such. It's not an expensive meter, but think it works quite well.... and these are not difficult to obtain for any vaper, if they so desire.

Would you be able to lay out a simple procedure for us to test our e-liquids with this basic gear?

[btw, growing peppers, not smokables ]

Thanks for giving your time and energy for this cause!

PM me with the subject "pH meter". I'll step you through it this weekend.

 

[DVap]

I'm not certain if Kurt has covered this, but I've looked at the test kit procedure. It's a compromise procedure which sacrifices some accuracy in the name of simplicity.

IMO, as the person who developed and validated the more involved procedure on which the test kit is based, the test kit when used properly is good for plus or minus 10% on unflavored eliquid bases.

So it's very important to remember that when you get a result, it doesn't represent a concentration, it represents a concentration range. Say you're testing a liquid that's actually at 100.0 mg/L and you get a result of 107 mg/mL. You cannot say that the vendor mixed the liquid 7% too high. You can say that the concentration of liquid is between 107 - 10.7 mg/mL and 107 + 10.7 mg/mL or between 96.3 and 117.7 mg/mL.

 

[landscaper]

Does it matter at what concentration it is? If it is at lethal concentrations then....dead is dead...or deadly is deadly.

Small variations is one thing but this stuff is all over the board and some of it is in lethal doses. I can't believe this guy is not in total panic mode right now. He must be begging for a lawsuit. If someone dies from this stuff he is in a world of you know what.

I keep coming back to this thread out of curiosity and information but I would like to see the back and forth and speculation kept to a minimum. Posters should have something of value to add or new information so that this thread doesn't get diluted with BS. Not trying to pee in anyones cheerios but in my opinion this is a serious matter and all this speculation and BS does nothing to help this thread other than to make it longer.

Just my 2 cents.

Dave

 

[carpedebass]

Does it matter at what concentration it is? If it is at lethal concentrations then....dead is dead...or deadly is deadly.

Small variations is one thing but this stuff is all over the board and some of it is in lethal doses. I can't believe this guy is not in total panic mode right now. He must be begging for a lawsuit. If someone dies from this stuff he is in a world of you know what.

I keep coming back to this thread out of curiosity and information but I would like to see the back and forth and speculation kept to a minimum. Posters should have something of value to add or new information so that this thread doesn't get diluted with BS. Not trying to pee in anyones cheerios but in my opinion this is a serious matter and all this speculation and BS does nothing to help this thread other than to make it longer.

Just my 2 cents.

Dave

I may not be the saltiest fry in the happy meal box, but you flying in and basically telling everyone to shut up is very counter productive, in my opinion. Maybe what some of us are saying is of little importance to you, but there are several facets of this situation that are of dire importance to the situation. The last thing we need is for folks to come on and start trying to censor people. In all honesty your diatribe is the closest thing to "speculation and BS" I have yet to see in this thread.

And I fail to see how determining concentration of nicotine is unimportant either. Perhaps you can give me a small example of what "lethal" or "deadly" is for nicotine without using concentration?? I'd love to hear you try. Kurt has poured a lot of time and energy into finding just what you're griping about here...this thread wouldn't even be an issue without it.

If I'm missing something or just not catching the "gist" of what you're saying, I do apologize. This just strikes me wrong though.

 

[Switched]

Does it matter at what concentration it is? If it is at lethal concentrations then....dead is dead...or deadly is deadly.

Small variations is one thing but this stuff is all over the board and some of it is in lethal doses. I can't believe this guy is not in total panic mode right now. He must be begging for a lawsuit. If someone dies from this stuff he is in a world of you know what.

I keep coming back to this thread out of curiosity and information but I would like to see the back and forth and speculation kept to a minimum. Posters should have something of value to add or new information so that this thread doesn't get diluted with BS. Not trying to pee in anyones cheerios but in my opinion this is a serious matter and all this speculation and BS does nothing to help this thread other than to make it longer.

Just my 2 cents.

Dave

Woa Dave,

No need for attacks here. I understand you are upset but no need to snarl at Dvap who has been an established source of information for this community, or anyone else for that matter.

DVap's observation is extremely valuable info for those that will be testing their unflavoured nic in the future. e.g should I acquire a bottle of 100mg that tests at 98mg, I know I am fine. However, if said bottle of 100mg tests out at 145mg in 3 consecutive tests then yes we have a problem.

You have a right to be upset as most folks here are as well, they just express their passion differently. Time to chill...

 

[landscaper]

Look fellows I wasn't attacking anyone and my post was not directed at anyone in particular. I was merely pointing out that there is a lot of back and forth and BS and speculation and talk about who should regulate what and the govt. and on and on. None of which adds or helps this situation.

Kurt and a few other of the scientific minds are being very helpful, also the people who actually have purchase the questionable Nic are the ones that should be responding. I get tired of the politics and back and forth. How to test and what to look for and any helpful information is great. I was just saying lets keep the politics and assumptions and speculations etc for another thread.

No offense meant to anyone just trying to see this kept on topic with new or helpful information.

I will not interfere again.

Dave

 

[Kurt]

I'm not certain if Kurt has covered this, but I've looked at the test kit procedure. It's a compromise procedure which sacrifices some accuracy in the name of simplicity.

IMO, as the person who developed and validated the more involved procedure on which the test kit is based, the test kit when used properly is good for plus or minus 10% on unflavored eliquid bases.

So it's very important to remember that when you get a result, it doesn't represent a concentration, it represents a concentration range. Say you're testing a liquid that's actually at 100.0 mg/L and you get a result of 107 mg/mL. You cannot say that the vendor mixed the liquid 7% too high. You can say that the concentration of liquid is between 107 - 10.7 mg/mL and 107 + 10.7 mg/mL or between 96.3 and 117.7 mg/mL.

Exactly. I do maintain that 1 mL in a normal 10 mL grad cyl with 0.2 mL graduations will have an uncertainty of +/- 0.2 mL. And if the acid is 0.12N then all results cannot be known to more than 2 known (significant digits). Thus, to expand on DVap, that result above would REALLY only be known as between 96 and 120 mg/mL.

Using finer graduated syringes will help this, but the acid concentration, as given, limits what you can truthfully say about the results. Think of it this way: you cannot obtain higher accuracy if you do not pay for it, even if your calculator is telling you otherwise. Unfortunate, but rigorous, and that is what we need now.

 

[carpedebass]

Look fellows I wasn't attacking anyone and my post was not directed at anyone in particular. I was merely pointing out that there is a lot of back and forth and BS and speculation and talk about who should regulate what and the govt. and on and on. None of which adds or helps this situation.

Kurt and a few other of the scientific minds are being very helpful, also the people who actually have purchase the questionable Nic are the ones that should be responding. I get tired of the politics and back and forth. How to test and what to look for and any helpful information is great. I was just saying lets keep the politics and assumptions and speculations etc for another thread.

No offense meant to anyone just trying to see this kept on topic with new or helpful information.

I will not interfere again.

Dave

Point taken, Dave. I think regulation is a very appropriate reactionary topic from this thread. However, I do concede to your point about it possibly belonging in another thread, or another discussion. I have been one to maintain the need for self regulation, and have not seemed to generate much response. I think it's critical if we do not want the feds to come in and do it for us...but judging by the poor response, I will assume that we'll just step aside and allow the government to do it for us...

Please accept my sincere apology, Dave. I feel that I didn't respond to you very well. All said, I'll not interfere any more either.

 

[Switched]

Look fellows I wasn't attacking anyone and my post was not directed at anyone in particular. I was merely pointing out that there is a lot of back and forth and BS and speculation and talk about who should regulate what and the govt. and on and on. None of which adds or helps this situation.

Kurt and a few other of the scientific minds are being very helpful, also the people who actually have purchase the questionable Nic are the ones that should be responding. I get tired of the politics and back and forth. How to test and what to look for and any helpful information is great. I was just saying lets keep the politics and assumptions and speculations etc for another thread.

No offense meant to anyone just trying to see this kept on topic with new or helpful information.

I will not interfere again.

Dave

Sorry for being curt Dave... TOS cover pretty hot topics where often threads get closed etc... We have been offerd a certain degree of latitude and without abusing the privilege should discuss how this could have been and can be prevented in the future.

IMHO no amount of testing will dispute or support what we already know. The lack of QA and QC at BE is evident, has been brought to the forefront and we need to see where it goes from here. Those that have questionable liquids from BE are invited to send them to Kurt for analysis to see how far this fisaco spreads.

On a totally unrelated subject if the future shows that BE is indeed a private residence, then that is worrisome indeed, when folks thought they were purchasing thier goods from a reputable company.

The other topic in discussing is BE going out of business only to re-surface as another entity. Do we really want this? No

In order for BE to continue to function as a supplier in this industry, they will have to regain public trust and have demonstrated that they have appropriate protocols in place and a sound QC program to prevent the re-occurrence. Until this was brought up publicly BE did not hold themselves accountable for nothing, this as not a 72hr problem but a 2 month problem and initial reaction was they are trying to sabotage our reputation and Kurt was nothing more than a chemistry student.

So the passion demonstrated in this thread as yours demonstrates that "we" the community hold them accountable and will hold accountable anyone whom is not responsible enough to be dealing with our liquids.

We wash our dirty laundry in public, within a controlled framework mind you, because I was totally appalled by the recommendation of severeal respected individuals of the community that said this should have been discussed behind close doors. It was in the beginning, and people were laughed at (more or less) and the response from BE when appraised of the situation (sep) it could not have possibly come from them. Aren't you glad now that this is out in the open, where at a minimum we got a confirmation of the low high concentrations from Brad where his stand before was it is impossible.

 

[mauzey]

Look fellows I wasn't attacking anyone and my post was not directed at anyone in particular. I was merely pointing out that there is a lot of back and forth and BS and speculation and talk about who should regulate what and the govt. and on and on. None of which adds or helps this situation.

Kurt and a few other of the scientific minds are being very helpful, also the people who actually have purchase the questionable Nic are the ones that should be responding. I get tired of the politics and back and forth. How to test and what to look for and any helpful information is great. I was just saying lets keep the politics and assumptions and speculations etc for another thread.

No offense meant to anyone just trying to see this kept on topic with new or helpful information.

I will not interfere again.

Dave

Don't go away mad ;-), in a thread like this you have to have patience, and you can pretty much throw out 80% of the posts as Chicken Little, Conspiracy, Paraphrasing, and Noise. I believe the main points for me were sussed out in the 1st 20 posts. Don't buy from BE, and test your Nic, we are responsible for our own purchases.

Thanks,
Jeff~

 

[ChipHead]

This is a great thread. Thank you, Kurt.

Interestingly back in June I posted the following in this thread:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...182-do-all-juices-have-issue.html#post3368344

"Short answer - no. I have never tried Johnson Creek juices but I can tell you that the four I tried from Gourmet Vapor (Fire Cured Brandy, Maiden Coffee, Blueberry and a menthol flavor) all had the exact same back taste, kind of barnyard/old gym sock essence.
..."

 

[cozzicon]

Thanks Kurt!



During the discussion after your part of the show the other night, one of the moderators specifically called me out (pinellaspete)(for questions I was asking in chat) and told me in no uncertain terms that "ALL NICOTINE USED FOR VAPING COMES FROM CHINA! IT WOULD BE TO EXPENSIVE TO BUY USA MADE NICOTINE!"

He lied to me!!!
He really bummed me out because I definitely want to buy USA liquids only, and now thought that I couldn't!

YOU ARE RIGHT!!!
RTS states on their website that their nicotine is made in North Carolina from tobacco grown in the USA!

RTS here I come!

Thanks again Kurt!

Pete

Hi Pete,

Since I was leading the panel discussion I'd like to point out that, like you, the panelist in question may not have been aware of RTS' source of nicotine. So claiming that the panelist lied to you is a little extreme. It was a round table discussion, with people with various levels of expertise, and the show was not about RTS so preparation for the show did not include research on RTS.

The origin of nicotine in the US market has been debated for along time. And since most vendors hold their sources as a trade secret, and it is generally assumed that the vast majority of nicotine available to vendors is available from China.

I just wanted to clarify this point, because through the process of this coming out, we have *all* received an education and are emotional about the result.

 

[hubseven]

What does RTS stand for? I use Gourmet Vapor only for my juice, should I be concerned? What are the names of American juice makers that use US nic?

 

[davelog]

What does RTS stand for? I use Gourmet Vapor only for my juice, should I be concerned? What are the names of American juice makers that use US nic?

Gourmet Vapor, Honeyville, and Box Elder are all the same company - or at least they're all owned by the same guy.

 

[hubseven]

Gourmet Vapor, Honeyville, and Box Elder are all the same company - or at least they're all owned by the same guy.

Really appreciate the info. Maybe time to start looking around. Any suggestions from your experience, I vape 50/50

 

[Dagar]

Being new vapers, DH and I and also DIY'ers this is a large issues for us. We have only ever ordered our nic from RTS. We think it is an excellent product and are so relieved we have never ordered from BE.

The chips are going to fall where they may. The rest of us really have no control over the this issue, other than to make sure our e-juice from vendors does not contain overage on the nic level.

Since we DIY, this concern is much less for us than others who do not.

This also brings up another important issue for me. As I have read this whole thread over the past two days.

SUPPORT AND DONATE TO CASAA.

It seems to me there are many of us out there, collecing PV's, investing in vaping as a lifestyle, and as a hobby, but very few are support this organization financially.

If everyone who has even READ this thread would send $5 it would go a long to making sure that this community and the rights of vapers and the vaping lifestyle are not going to be lumped in as a whole with those who smoke analogs.

Even though it is a holiday and our budget is tight, next payday I will be support CASAA with donation. I WANT to continue being a vaper. I am not a smoker. I do not want alphabet agencies telling me I am smoker or deciding where or when I can vape.

If you are going to speak with your wallet on the BE issues.....then you all had better damn sure vote with you wallet at CASAA. Put your money where you vape...

Dawn

CASAA | The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-Free Alternatives Association

 

[MattZuke]

Does it matter at what concentration it is? If it is at lethal concentrations then....dead is dead...or deadly is deadly.

It quite does matter what the concentration is, dose makes the poison, and the half life of nicotine is so short, dose over time makes the poison.

The Nicotine's LD50 is .5-1mg/kg, as in 25mg-50mg for someone at 120lbs, 50mg-100mg for someone at 240lbs.
It's half life in the human body is 1hr.

The really bad stuff, ~270mg/ml would be diluted down to ~46.5mg/ml in 18mg/ml recipe. Maybe around 65mg/ml for 24mg? Which again, is consumed over time. What's in your system is cut by half every hour.

The worst nicotine poisoning I'm aware was a case where 40% nicotine was added to beef in 2003 with a net result in tests at 300 mg/kg. Out of the 100 people who injected the beef, only 2 were admitted to the ER. One for atrial fibrillation, one for nausea, vomiting, and complaint of rectal bleeding. One hospitalization, a pregnant woman with episodic vomiting.

I don't mean to dismiss the BE case as being trivial, it's not. Fortunately at the concentrations offered the net result is a toxic, not lethal. Those at the highest risk are the folks working with it who would need to take extra precautions to deal with this level.

 

[kinabaloo]

Wait, wait. There are some bottles out there at 2.7x normal concentration. Not 10x. Why these theatrics? Nobody puts concentrated nicotine for dilution into cartos.

A 220mg was discovered labeled as much lower (the x2.7 you mention). What I said was that 240mg is 10x what most normally vape; never said it was 10x the label.

But with the figures all over the place combined with labelling errors, can you really dismiss the possibility of there being bottles marked as 24mg that are actually 240mg?

 

[oldsoldier]

While CAASA may be a worthwhile organization, they really have little to do with this thread. It is about testing nic concentrations and allegations of poor QC and CS. I don't think they would expand their charter to to cover this area. Please start another thread if you wish to fund raise and recruit. Unless of course CAASA is donating to defray the costs of this research, in which case I would say,"Bravo!"