I'm a Christain, but I admit to crazy things in my book.
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I'm posting below something I wrote in a very different context for another thread. It won't spell out the whys for specific questions but maybe hearing a generic overview of what God is doing on the whole might give some insight to understand some of the difficulties in the Bible.
Why does God allow suffering? If I had a dime for everytime I've been asked that question, I'd be rich! This one question seems to be the biggest stumbling point for most people.
I believe there are several reasons. First, we were created with free will. God loved us enough to let us decide for ourselves if we wanted to love Him back or not. Some do, some don't. But He loved us enough to take the chance, and give us all the choice.
You know the old saying "If you love someone, set them free. If they come back to you, they are yours. If they don't, they never were."
The angels were also created with free will. Satan and the demons are evidence of that. What we can't see, is the war that is going on, and did go on, which is invisible to us. Job was a faithful man. Satan told God that if Job was allowed to be tormented, he would turn away from God. God said no he wouldn't, but that wasn't good enough. Myraids of angels were there, watching this challenge going on in heaven. In order to settle that question that satan posed, God allowed Satan to torment Job to settle this. He did, and Job was faithful through the whole thing. The question was finally answered.
A person who really loves God will not turn away from Him even during times of great suffering. I know this is difficult to accept, but suffering is also a tool. It's a learning and refining tool. It's easy to love God when everything is going good and you have everything that you want. But, you know, when someone is under stress, their true colors really come shining through. You either turn to God for help, or you curse Him. Could suffering and strife be what separates the sheep from the goats? Maybe? People make their own choices in life how they deal with pain. Some, like Job, trust God and ask for strength, and some curse God and say that pain should not be allowed.
God Himself, does not expect us to go through anything that He has not already gone through Himself. He came here to earth, the creator of everything put on a human body and came to earth to show us how to do it. He allowed Himself to be tortured, humiliated, and crucified, the worst possible things a human can go through, He actually went through it Himself. And He did it knowing exactly what was in store for Him when He got here. Could you do that? He loved us that much.
I grew up in a very abusive home, my father was an alcoholic and extremely cruel. I suffered terribly as a child, so did my brother and my mother. My father made our lives hell. I could be angry with God and say "Why did you allow me to suffer like that?". But the fact is, my father was created with the same free will that I was created with. He was allowed which path in life he would choose, and unfortunately he picked a dark path, and we suffered as a result.
But, if God had removed my fathers free will, my father wouldn't have been a human being like the rest of us. It would have altered him, and then altered me and everyone else that my father came into contact with. It would have disrupted the entire deal because everyone is connected in this world. You can't remove the free will of just a few people without altering history itself and changing the entire plan, it's like a domino effect. Also, you can't learn from mistakes if you're not allowed to make them in the first place. God does hope that people like my father will eventually learn from those mistakes, and the suffering that they caused others, and repent and ask forgiveness. Some do, and some don't. But, it's all part of the grand creation and free will. You can't have free will without choices.
People that really know and love God understand that no matter what happens in this life, it's so short and temporary. When compared to eternity, this human life doesn't even register on the scale. It's like a school house of learning, a boarding school, and life's challenges and obstacles are little tests that take and choices we make to decide our future existence when we die. Some graduate, some don't, but we all have the opportunity to learn and excel here if we want to.
I believe there are several reasons. First, we were created with free will. God loved us enough to let us decide for ourselves if we wanted to love Him back or not. Some do, some don't. But He loved us enough to take the chance, and give us all the choice.
You know the old saying "If you love someone, set them free. If they come back to you, they are yours. If they don't, they never were."
The angels were also created with free will. Satan and the demons are evidence of that. What we can't see, is the war that is going on, and did go on, which is invisible to us. Job was a faithful man. Satan told God that if Job was allowed to be tormented, he would turn away from God. God said no he wouldn't, but that wasn't good enough. Myraids of angels were there, watching this challenge going on in heaven. In order to settle that question that satan posed, God allowed Satan to torment Job to settle this. He did, and Job was faithful through the whole thing. The question was finally answered.
A person who really loves God will not turn away from Him even during times of great suffering. I know this is difficult to accept, but suffering is also a tool. It's a learning and refining tool. It's easy to love God when everything is going good and you have everything that you want. But, you know, when someone is under stress, their true colors really come shining through. You either turn to God for help, or you curse Him. Could suffering and strife be what separates the sheep from the goats? Maybe? People make their own choices in life how they deal with pain. Some, like Job, trust God and ask for strength, and some curse God and say that pain should not be allowed.
God Himself, does not expect us to go through anything that He has not already gone through Himself. He came here to earth, the creator of everything put on a human body and came to earth to show us how to do it. He allowed Himself to be tortured, humiliated, and crucified, the worst possible things a human can go through, He actually went through it Himself. And He did it knowing exactly what was in store for Him when He got here. Could you do that? He loved us that much.
I grew up in a very abusive home, my father was an alcoholic and extremely cruel. I suffered terribly as a child, so did my brother and my mother. My father made our lives hell. I could be angry with God and say "Why did you allow me to suffer like that?". But the fact is, my father was created with the same free will that I was created with. He was allowed which path in life he would choose, and unfortunately he picked a dark path, and we suffered as a result.
But, if God had removed my fathers free will, my father wouldn't have been a human being like the rest of us. It would have altered him, and then altered me and everyone else that my father came into contact with. It would have disrupted the entire deal because everyone is connected in this world. You can't remove the free will of just a few people without altering history itself and changing the entire plan, it's like a domino effect. Also, you can't learn from mistakes if you're not allowed to make them in the first place. God does hope that people like my father will eventually learn from those mistakes, and the suffering that they caused others, and repent and ask forgiveness. Some do, and some don't. But, it's all part of the grand creation and free will. You can't have free will without choices.
People that really know and love God understand that no matter what happens in this life, it's so short and temporary. When compared to eternity, this human life doesn't even register on the scale. It's like a school house of learning, a boarding school, and life's challenges and obstacles are little tests that take and choices we make to decide our future existence when we die. Some graduate, some don't, but we all have the opportunity to learn and excel here if we want to.
I have often found that my success of interpretting the Bible has a lot to do with the strength of my relationship with my Savior. As a Christian, there are many things in the Bible I don't fully understand. That is when I look to my pastor, or a fellow Christian.
There are many areas of my Christian walk where I fall short. I can say this, Christianity isn't a religion, its a relationship. We are to seek Jesus daily. People are going to interpret the Bible very differently. That's why its important to ask yourself if your understanding of God's Word is influenced by God himself, or your own understanding.
There are many areas of my Christian walk where I fall short. I can say this, Christianity isn't a religion, its a relationship. We are to seek Jesus daily. People are going to interpret the Bible very differently. That's why its important to ask yourself if your understanding of God's Word is influenced by God himself, or your own understanding.
Having read the entire thread, I have to chime in with a non-Christian viewpoint. I cannot explain God but I do not invalidate him. My issue is that I tend to invalidate the word of Men who have interpreted God to suit themselves. When I look at the Bible, Koran, etc, I see documents that validate the saying "History is written by the victors." The rules are written to support the Church, not the people of the faith. This is a major dilemma for me. I believe, but not the words of Men. Then what is the word of God? I admit that I do not know, but I am unwilling to join forces with a Dogma that is at war with an opposing Dogma. (Both right, both wrong, 1 right, 1 wrong, I have no way of knowing)
Being a thinking person is not a comfortable thing. I choose to consider, this is why Dogma is anathema to me. I would be much more comfortable as a believer, alas I cannot be. Kudos to Da Multa for questioning, this is the only way for the hard of head.
Lexgar, the most genuine and honest place that you can start (since you have stated that you believe there's something, just not sure what's right) it to find some alone time and pray.
"God if you are real and it is possible to know you then please show me. Please draw me and convince me."
I'm not even going to give you a formula or set of sayings (just that idea to start) because what matters is your genuineness and that God heares from you, not you repeating what someone else said to say. Don't pray just once. Ask often.
Look at it this way. Noone will see or hear so you can't become embarassed. If God is this all powerful being who cares for us as we believe, then He is able to draw you to faith completely outside of any man's church or religion. But once it happens don't be surprised if you are then drawn to go to a church to be around others of like mind.
The Bible teaches that if you diligently seek God than you will find Him. (Rather that He will allow Himself to be found by you.)
"God if you are real and it is possible to know you then please show me. Please draw me and convince me."
I'm not even going to give you a formula or set of sayings (just that idea to start) because what matters is your genuineness and that God heares from you, not you repeating what someone else said to say. Don't pray just once. Ask often.
Look at it this way. Noone will see or hear so you can't become embarassed. If God is this all powerful being who cares for us as we believe, then He is able to draw you to faith completely outside of any man's church or religion. But once it happens don't be surprised if you are then drawn to go to a church to be around others of like mind.
The Bible teaches that if you diligently seek God than you will find Him. (Rather that He will allow Himself to be found by you.)
I've got a 'hard head' also lexgar, and I have to work at 'breaking' that hard head daily. Please, if you would be so kind, give me a moment of your time so I can ask you a single question? You yourself stated one side's right & one side's wrong... What happens if you miss out on being an eternal victor because of the decision you're making right now? If you think Dogma is anathema, (I wish I could 'prove' it to you) but there's worse things than that.
I do pray, and before I moved attended church fairly regularly when I found a place that was inclusive to all. A place that welcomes all including as part of the congregation people that come from Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist, Gay, backgrounds. It was the only place I felt truly welcomed. Worship is about the questions, i.e how to act- personal choice and responsibility not dogmatic adherence to a exclusive creed. This seems the only sensible place for the eternal questioner that lives within me.
For those interested, it is Unitarian Universalism, an amalgam of many faiths without the Dogma of any. I will soon find a local congregation that I am sure will welcome me.
"Universalism broadly refers to a theological belief that all persons and creatures are related to God or the divine and will be reconciled to God (Universal Salvation)."
"Historically, Unitarianism was a denomination within Christianity. The term may refer to any belief about the nature of Jesus Christ that affirms God as a singular entity and rejects the doctrine of the Trinity."
Unitarians and Universalists often have had common interests and communication between them. In the often-quoted words of Thomas Starr King, pastor of the San Francisco Unitarian Church at the beginning of the Civil War: "The Universalists believe that God is too good to damn them, and the Unitarians believe they are too good to be damned!"
The only problem with those churches is that they really don't teach the meat of the bible and salvation, so they aren't really a christian church. They are more like a sunday social group. My mom went to one, it was all fluff and no meat. Alot of nice nice stuff, everyone is happy, everything is great, God loves everything and everthing is ok.........yada yada yada.
It's important to take God seriously, not water it down so that everyone agrees and is happy. It's just not the truth, not everyone will be saved and those churches basically teach that to make everyone happy, but that's not really what the Bible says.
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Do you believe in the Bible Lexgar? How about Jesus? Just curious what your beliefs are.
This is the meat of the problem I have with Dogma. If I do not feel the way YOU do about God then I am damned. There is more than one version of the Bible, both new and old as well as many translations. It is a matter of interpretation by Men, and I think this is likely to differ from the "Word of God." Which one am I supposed to believe? Whose translation to trust? Do I throw out the old when the new is published?
While I take the concept of God seriously, it is difficult to take seriously the many different words of Men interpreting God. Case in point, if major clerics of the 3 major religions (Christians, Jews, Muslims) are asked if the one God is the same in each belief, they will all agree that this is true. This concept is very different from older beliefs such as Greek and Roman theology where people prayed to Their gods. Many different peoples had many different gods. As civilization progressed did God/gods change or did we?
Did the old gods do battle with the new one God and admit defeat and just wink out of existence? When the civilization ceased to exist did the old gods become irrelevant and disappear without a people to worship them? Are we as worshipers the makers of God?
To my previous point, if there is in fact a one True God, what difference does it make how we worship? How does language matter to a omniscient God? What matter the format if we truly speak from our hearts? Many wars have been fought and millions have died between factions all believing in the same God. How does this make sense to a rational human being?
I was raised in a Reform Jewish household and have an Orthodox Rabbi as a brother in Israel. Another brother took to Jewish Orthodoxy as an adult and my sister is a Buddhist. I consider myself an unhappy Agnostic. Unhappy because it would be so much easier to believe than not.
Thomas Henry Huxley (1825 – 1895) came up with the word ‘agnostic’ while searching for a term to describe his own beliefs. He did not consider himself “an atheist, a theist, a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; [nor] a Christian…” and while he had much in common with freethinkers, he wanted a term to describe himself more accurately. His difference with the people who gave themselves the above labels was that he did not feel certain of his knowledge- or ‘gnosis’- that he “had successfully solved the problem of existence.”
I do not feel certain of my knowledge, I have not successfully solve the problem of existence. I just do not know and have been unable to take the "Leap of Faith" to accept what I cannot as a human understand. As a thinking being, Buddhism make the most sense to me. It teaches the concepts of being right with the World and being right with oneself.
Panna: Discernment, wisdom:
bullet 1) Samma ditthi Right Understanding of the Four Noble Truths
bullet 2) Samma sankappa: Right thinking; following the right path in life
bullet Sila: Virtue, morality:
bullet 3) Samma vaca: Right speech: no lying, criticism, condemning, gossip, harsh language
bullet 4) Samma kammanta Right conduct by following the Five Precepts
bullet 5) Samma ajiva: Right livelihood; support yourself without harming others
bullet Samadhi: Concentration, meditation:
bullet 6) Samma vayama Right Effort: promote good thoughts; conquer evil thoughts
bullet 7) Samma sati Right Mindfulness: Become aware of your body, mind and feelings
bullet 8) Samma samadhi Right Concentration: Meditate to achieve a higher state of consciousness
I do not consider myself a Buddhist, but these things make sense to me at least.
"Alot of nice nice stuff, everyone is happy, everything is great, God loves everything and everthing is ok.........yada yada yada. "
How is it bad to be around people who want to ask the questions, who want to live right with the world and each other, who want to follow the right path in this universe? These are good caring people who want to support each other in the search for truth. It may not be your truth. They do not condemn you, why are you so sure and ready to condemn them? Many profess belief in your God. Do you think that your God is too stupid to understand their ways? Do you think your God is so arrogant that he must hear things in just the words You think are the correct ones?
I think that if there is this one God he/she/it does understand, does want us to care for each other, does want us to be happy, does want us to be right with the world.
You asked, I hope I have been more clear than mud.
Thanks for your very detailed and honest post Lexgar. You have some very good questions. I'd like to have some time to pray about this and think it over before I answer you. I will be back to reply
Hopefully some other posters will reply as well. I believe you are not alone, probably millions of other people that feel the same that you do. I appreciate your honestly and willingness to discuss your beliefs with us here.
Hopefully some other posters will reply as well. I believe you are not alone, probably millions of other people that feel the same that you do. I appreciate your honestly and willingness to discuss your beliefs with us here.
I am always willing to discuss with an open mind to others of open mind. I appreciate the need to think about what I have posted. It is the closed minded that concern me. To have a personal position without thought or consideration is a definition of the closed mind and heart.
Upon stating an opinion, I often say that this is what I think, but I could be wrong. I am human and often wrong. 50/50 is sometimes the best that can be expected. It is about the questions, this is how I come to opinion. Little (if any) about the metaphysical world can be stated as fact. It is almost all personal opinion at best. I believe that this is the sticking point on this kind of discussion. Opinion based on conjecture is not factual. Stating one's opinion as such is healthy, stating it as fact is not.
Just my humble opinion.
Upon stating an opinion, I often say that this is what I think, but I could be wrong. I am human and often wrong. 50/50 is sometimes the best that can be expected. It is about the questions, this is how I come to opinion. Little (if any) about the metaphysical world can be stated as fact. It is almost all personal opinion at best. I believe that this is the sticking point on this kind of discussion. Opinion based on conjecture is not factual. Stating one's opinion as such is healthy, stating it as fact is not.
Just my humble opinion.
Ok, I gave this some serious thought, and I prayed about it. God put one word into my mind. Just one word???? Dang! I needed atleast a few paragraphs! But I only got one word. After thinking about it, that one word was all I really needed.
That one word was "Truth".
I was also at the same place you are, several years ago. I believed in God, but didn't really know what/who He was. I didn't know the Truth. I went searching for it in many different places. I searched for it in churches, I searched for it in the worlds great spiritual teachers. I searched for it through deed meditation and philosophy, cults, the occult, theology, metaphysics and quantum physics. I searched and searched until I had exhausted all of the options that the world has to offer.
You know where I finally found the truth? In my own living room, the Bible, and prayer. And that's the Truth.
God is the same today as He was yesterday and tomorrow. He is and always was, and there is only one true God.
The crux here is mans interpretation of who He really is and what He is all about. That is the stumbling point for many people, and always has been.
But, there is only one truth, everything else is a lie. How do you know for sure what that Truth is? I can tell you the truth, but chances are that you won't believe me either because I'm just another human who "claims" to know. You would be skeptical, and for good reason.
For that reason, it is up to you to find it. It's between you and God. It's up to you to seek Him out, ask for Him to reveal Himself to you. If you seek Him with an honest, sincere and humble heart, He will answer you.
Talk to God, tell Him your concerns, ask Him for guidance, wisdom, understanding. He is there waiting for you.
But maybe He has already read your heart, knows of your questions, and guided you here. Just maybe
Ok, I gave this some serious thought, and I prayed about it. God put one word into my mind. Just one word???? Dang! I needed atleast a few paragraphs! But I only got one word. After thinking about it, that one word was all I really needed.
That one word was "Truth".
I was also at the same place you are, several years ago. I believed in God, but didn't really know what/who He was. I didn't know the Truth. I went searching for it in many different places. I searched for it in churches, I searched for it in the worlds great spiritual teachers. I searched for it through deed meditation and philosophy, cults, the occult, theology, metaphysics and quantum physics. I searched and searched until I had exhausted all of the options that the world has to offer.
You know where I finally found the truth? In my own living room, the Bible, and prayer. And that's the Truth.
God is the same today as He was yesterday and tomorrow. He is and always was, and there is only one true God.
OK here on this one.
The crux here is mans interpretation of who He really is and what He is all about. That is the stumbling point for many people, and always has been.
Agreed.
But, there is only one truth, everything else is a lie. How do you know for sure what that Truth is? I can tell you the truth, but chances are that you won't believe me either because I'm just another human who "claims" to know. You would be skeptical, and for good reason.
My issue with this statement is the certainty. You can tell me what you believe truth is, but I see this as your opinion (which is valid for you), but still opinion. See previous post.
For that reason, it is up to you to find it. It's between you and God. It's up to you to seek Him out, ask for Him to reveal Himself to you. If you seek Him with an honest, sincere and humble heart, He will answer you.
In agreement the 1st part, hopeful on the 2nd
Talk to God, tell Him your concerns, ask Him for guidance, wisdom, understanding. He is there waiting for you.
But maybe He has already read your heart, knows of your questions, and guided you here. Just maybe
I have long been a seeker, finding anwers where I may.
Lexgar that made me laugh. Not that this topic is a laughing matter by any means, but your answer reminded me of Yoda and made me chuckle.
Seek I do, Find I may.
Do I pray friend, Sincerely am I.
Seek I do, Find I may.
Do I pray friend, Sincerely am I.
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