Industry Concerns

[FreakyStylie]

So, basically, we need to appoint a group of people to be the watchdog group. Vendors would have their e-liquids tested and submit the results to the watchdog group for approval? That could be a really good thing. Now all we need is someone qualified to step forward and set this in motion. This person would maintain the list of approved suppliers, correct? It could work.

I wonder if there could be a group started in the campaigning section in order to talk shop. A place where web developers, researchers, and organizers could discuss how to establish the group and make it grow. I think that would be a great place to start. Maybe a place to hold "interviews" at first? IDK, I'm glad to see something coming together though.

I do quite a bit of graphic design. I could give assistance making a logo or seal, t-shirts, or website design elements.

I will not eat cookies, cakes, exc,,, that people bring to work. I do not know if their hands, pans, or counters are clean. I am moving in the same direction with the e-liquid. I don't eat at restaurants very often any more. If I do, The sanitation grade will be no lower than 98. I would like some sort of grade for those that mix e-liquid. The FDA is going to regulate the nicotine before all is said and done. The FDA rejected and protested the regulation of nicotine when it was first assigned to them. But they were forced into it. If the company's would not have made health claims, they probably would have left it alone. Just like Cheerios. They have been around for a long time, but when they claimed eating Cheerios would lower your cholesterol, the FDA stepped in and said Cheerios needed to be regulated as a drug. Also, quit naming a liquid flavor after cigarette brand names. They don't taste like them anyway.

I was thinking about that last night. What are the processing standards followed by manufacturers and distributors? What if a worker had the flu virus and spread it to all the vapers? I'm assuming that there is some sort of health department inspection required just like a small company that sells cookies for consumer consumption. (Hopefully.)

 

[SimpleSins]

I wonder if there could be a group started in the campaigning section in order to talk shop. A place where web developers, researchers, and organizers could discuss how to establish the group and make it grow. I think that would be a great place to start. Maybe a place to hold "interviews" at first? IDK, I'm glad to see something coming together though.

I do quite a bit of graphic design. I could give assistance making a logo or seal, t-shirts, or website design elements.



I was thinking about that last night. What are the processing standards followed by manufacturers and distributors? What if a worker had the flu virus and spread it to all the vapers? I'm assuming that there is some sort of health department inspection required just like a small company that sells cookies for consumer consumption. (Hopefully.)

You would think, but unfortunately that is not the case. There are no standards, health or otherwise, set up for this industry, so in essence your juice could be filtered through dog hair while the baby sneezes into the nicotine fluid and the cat uses the litter box stored right beside the empty bottles.

 

[warbdan]

Sounds like some people here want to dictate over juice producers. I certainly don't want a small group of people deciding what is in my best interest. Making people aware of what juices have ingredients that might be harmful to them is one thing. Many of the things people are suggesting here, go way over the line in being intrusive in the running of a private company, in a free market society.
And I have seen enough political tactics from vendors already, to know that any "watchdog" group would not be independent and unbiased for long, not that it would be in the first place.

Not at all, I was suggesting that the trade association could let vendors send in the results of their testing IF they WANTED to carry the trade associations seal on their product.

 

[SimpleSins]

Sounds like some people here want to dictate over juice producers. I certainly don't want a small group of people deciding what is in my best interest. Making people aware of what juices have ingredients that might be harmful to them is one thing. Many of the things people are suggesting here, go way over the line in being intrusive in the running of a private company, in a free market society.
And I have seen enough political tactics from vendors already, to know that any "watchdog" group would not be independent and unbiased for long, not that it would be in the first place.

I don't know exactly where you got the idea that anybody would regulate what was in the juice. My own line of thinking was that there were safety standards that at a minimum must be met (such as the cleanliness of the mixing area) and random testing of the ingredients (which I don't know that I would trust the industry to self-submit). Then if, like you, a vaper is not overly concerned about the particular safety hazards the consumer group has looked at it, you are perfectly free to buy from anyone, but the "seal" of approval from the SAVE or whatever would be in place for those that are more concerned.

 

[FreakyStylie]

You would think, but unfortunately that is not the case. There are no standards, health or otherwise, set up for this industry, so in essence your juice could be filtered through dog hair while the baby sneezes into the nicotine fluid and the cat uses the litter box stored right beside the empty bottles.

Then I think that should be one of the things on the list. I'm sure any local health department would require a supplier, who handles juice, (Not just reselling bottles.) to be submitted to inspections. I have a couple girls at work who make excellent tamales, but won't sell them because the health department has requirements for their kitchens that is not feasible for an out-of-the-house small business. (Dedicated space, etc.)

I am currently researching Oregon law under the premise of what it would take to open a vaping lounge. I'm trying to find out what the Attorney General's office is really requiring behind the smoke and mirrors. I am finding that they would definitely require health inspectors to approve of the facilities. And I see no problem with it really - it is just to keep the public safe.

 

[bruther]

I don't know exactly where you got the idea that anybody would regulate what was in the juice. My own line of thinking was that there were safety standards that at a minimum must be met (such as the cleanliness of the mixing area) and random testing of the ingredients (which I don't know that I would trust the industry to self-submit). Then if, like you, a vaper is not overly concerned about the particular safety hazards the consumer group has looked at it, you are perfectly free to buy from anyone, but the "seal" of approval from the SAVE or whatever would be in place for those that are more concerned.

I don't remember writing anything about anybody regulating what's in the juice.
There is nothing wrong with having standards for juice makers. I'm sure thar your motives are well intended too.
But think about what's being proposed here. People that vape are trying to organize a group that will in some way have an effect on better production standards for the making of the juice that the people in this group vape and rate them accordingly or whatever.
To me, this is like the Fox guarding the Henhouse.

 

[kpax]

You would think, but unfortunately that is not the case. There are no standards, health or otherwise, set up for this industry, so in essence your juice could be filtered through dog hair while the baby sneezes into the nicotine fluid and the cat uses the litter box stored right beside the empty bottles.

LOL Thanks SimpleSins for that visual

I was quite floored myself when I came to realize there were no health standards in place. I attend craft shows a lot. One of my friend's even organized one earlier this year and all of the food vendors had to have current health permits. They don't even think it's a big deal; they are just subject to some basic inspections. One vendor sells canned jellies in the organic section of several grocery stores also. She would never be able to expand her market like that without a permit.

 

[FreakyStylie]

Sounds like some people here want to dictate over juice producers. I certainly don't want a small group of people deciding what is in my best interest. Making people aware of what juices have ingredients that might be harmful to them is one thing. Many of the things people are suggesting here, go way over the line in being intrusive in the running of a private company, in a free market society.
And I have seen enough political tactics from vendors already, to know that any "watchdog" group would not be independent and unbiased for long, not that it would be in the first place.

That is a genuine concern that has gotten me upset in past discussions . . . that this was the projected perception (intentionally or unintentionally).

I think the direction is similar to the Better Business Bureau. Any business can operate without their seal, but if a company has their seal, you know that they have met a set of parameters established by the BBB. It offers peace of mind to shoppers, knowing that somebody else has already researched the company for them.

Some people may not be concerned with the parameters established by the proposed watchdog group, and it would not affect them in any shape or form. There are people who are very concerned, or have issues with allergies, etc who might not be willing to take the time to search for all of the information. This would be a great assistance for those types of people. (Just look at all the noob posts that are along the lines of "Help! Too many vendors, too much information, what do I do?"

There may be some who want to be "in control" or dictate, and I think that it would be a good idea for the group to have an unbiased person who could help moderate the group.

 

[my2heartboys]

Got some other posts in this thread I would like to respond to, but this is the easiest one for me to do at this point.

For those here that are in the advocacy groups as well as any vendors, I have gotten the task of forming a smoking cessation report/class project for my dental assisting program. If you have anything you would like to send me, please pm me and I will be more than happy to give you my snail mail address. I will say that for this project/report, I would like to keep the issues very simple. What's out there, how well it works....etc.

Another comment directly related to this post....I think you could also include a cry out to the medical doctors that know what is out there and very experienced to get vocal and voice their thoughts and opinions both good and bad.

Anne

I'm going to agree with everything everyone said about the safety of the juice and hardware. That said, I think the most important thing the industry can do is GET EVERY SMOKER AWARE that the product exists. There should be well-publicized exhibitons in every town. Once everyone sees how good these are (or can be) public demand will alter the political situation to our favor and generate enough revenue for reasonable safety standards.

 

[warbdan]

It would be nice to get some ideas of what the "watchdog group" would look for.
IE: 1. Cleanliness of dedicated preparation area(health inspection would prove this and would be submitted for review)
2. All legalities in place (DBA on file at court house along with business license and copies submitted for review)
3. Results of testing submitted for review (These should show liquids don't contain diacetyl, 2,3 pentanedione, or acetoin)
4. All PG, VG, and Nicotine should be USP grade.

The first two should be in place for ANY legitimate business in the United States, so there should be no problem there. 3 and 4 would be submitted for review to show clear concern for consumer safety, otherwise... no seal.
Anything else we could add would only make the end product better for the consumer.

 

[my2heartboys]

I can't agree more with this post. As consumers we are so dependent on watching and looking to the government to put up regulations and hold manufacturers of all kinds to these regulations. The more I hear and read on our American history and where the government initially started and where the government is going today, well, the more I am coming to the firm belief that we as a people and people that started these industries absolutely must start regulating ourselves instead of waiting for Washington to do it for us. This also means that those who have iron clad ethics that will not be bought, sold, or traded in a back room somewhere over drinks (please know that I am not referring specifically to any one political party because I know that all of them have had their share of politicians that have done this) need to step up and start this as well as make sure that the industry stays on course with this.

We wait for the government to fix itself, well, based on what little I know, we the people, were originally given the power to fix it ourselves.

Anne

We have an excellent format here to create an advocacy group. I would really like to see that. Most of the stuff that I have read is all scattered about. It would be nice to have a concise list of expectations and concerns.

It would be nice to see sites with a seal of approval akin to the BBB. A site with the "XXXX" logo could be donned to sites meeting their criteria. (Call it Safety and Awareness for Vaporizing Ethics or something - SAVE) Having a site designed to show what the expectations are, and why, could be a very excellent thing, and could potentially aid in the FDA favoring the industry because it has its own watchdog organization.

For example, the list of expectations that would need to be met would include: Battery safety, charger icons for proper battery fit, free from harmful chemicals, offering of PG free juices, lack of marketing to minors, lack of complaints about services reported, etc. Of course, building and maintaining a list is one thing, but how would a group go about actually doing the "watch dogging" part? Do suppliers send copies of schematics and inspection reports and customers contact the site with shipping or product issues?

I've gotten part of my addiction and intake of harmful substances reduced, now I want to find out more.

 

[rons29445]

I used to own a small Scuba Dive shop outside Charleston, SC and provided air tank fills to my customers.
DOT governed the manufacturing and testing requirements of the High Pressure tanks used. However, there was no clear cut laws or directives for the quality of compressed air being sold.
The dive industry policed itself and recommended that samples of air be tested by independent laboratories for the quality and cleanliness of the compressed air being sold. We proudly posted our results in the form of certificates of approval. I did this testing on a quarterly basis for our electrical air compressor. I used an approved synthetic compressor oil and watched my system very carefully.

I think it ironic how we have smoked cigarettes for all these years (over 40 for me) and we do not see anyone demanding labels on the packs of smokes declaring the ingredients or the fact label we find on foods.
I know where I purchase my PG (USP), VG (Food Grade), Vodka (Food Grade) and hopefully USP Nicotine. The flavors concern me as I do not know what the ingredients are, but am trusting that they are food grade and therefore safe.
I have no problem in some overseer organization being designed and they would hopefully be able to designate a system for validity and testing analysis.

But I would like to remind all that every thing is fueled by the almighty dollar. And that testing, analysis, governing, regulation, etc is going to cost and increase the prices of the end product. So, if all of this is wanted, then expect the prices to be skyrocket.
jmho

 

[warbdan]

But I would like to remind all that every thing is fueled by the almighty dollar. And that testing, analysis, governing, regulation, etc is going to cost and increase the prices of the end product. So, if all of this is wanted, then expect the prices to be skyrocket.
jmho

Not really, because they would only need to be tested once for each flavor...unless the source of flavorings or the flavor's recipe changed. Since most mix the recipes the same every time, it shouldn't be more than a one time expense.

I agree with the statement about displaying the certificate proudly. I think the watchdog group's seal would mean something and would be something that vendors would want to strive for.

 

[FreakyStylie]

I think it ironic how we have smoked cigarettes for all these years (over 40 for me) and we do not see anyone demanding labels on the packs of smokes declaring the ingredients or the fact label we find on foods.

I've wondered this about juice labels. There is not a standard format from supplier to supplier. I'm sure the FDA will require this when the approval goes through. Look at their requirements: Food Labeling Guide
Granted, this is not a food product we are talking about, but it is a very similar product. I'm sure that a simple format could be developed based off what we see on our food packages everyday.

 

[warbdan]

I was just wondering...What ever happened to the ECA? Shouldn't they have done this already?

 

[FreakyStylie]

Not really, because they would only need to be tested once for each flavor...unless the source of flavorings or the flavor's recipe changed. Since most mix the recipes the same every time, it shouldn't be more than a one time expense.

I agree with the statement about displaying the certificate proudly. I think the watchdog group's seal would mean something and would be something that vendors would want to strive for.

This is true. As much as I've found out in Oregon, every time a recipe changes, the ingredients list needs to be reevaluated. As long as the recipe stays the same, the current documentation on file is accepted. As far as tobacco related products, I have also found out that they require all forms of advertisement to be approved before being used. Whenever advertisement changes, it has to be submitted and approved by the Attorney General's office.

 

[SimpleSins]

I cannot speak for cigarettes- I do not smoke them anymore. As to food products, they can get away with saying "flavoring' because each of those ingredients has been proven safe for that use. However, that is not true for vaping. As a matter of fact, many of the ingredients that we vape and inhale are considered pulmonary toxins and people working around them have to use appropriate respiratory protection to keep from inhaling it, in addition to regular health checks. Keep in mind that physiologically, there is a huge difference between something being FDA approved as safe for ingestion and being declared safe for inhalation, and nothing in ejuice is approved for that purpose yet, save for the nicotine.

 

[warbdan]

SS, that is true, but we were talking about vendors having to retest if a recipe changed. This would require them to resubmit their results if they changed flavorings in order to keep the seal of the watchdog group.

 

[GoodDog]

I DIY and I can say that the profit margin for eLiquid is very high. It costs pennies per mL for a larger scale vendor to make it, of course not considering overhead. Some have stated that they have made millions this year so I think some of the profits should be used to ensure vapers' safety.

 

[warbdan]

It would be nice to get some ideas of what the "watchdog group" would look for.
IE: 1. Cleanliness of dedicated preparation area(health inspection would prove this and would be submitted for review)
2. All legalities in place (DBA on file at court house along with business license and copies submitted for review)
3. Results of testing submitted for review (These should show liquids don't contain diacetyl, 2,3 pentanedione, or acetoin)
4. All PG, VG, and Nicotine should be USP grade.

The first two should be in place for ANY legitimate business in the United States, so there should be no problem there. 3 and 4 would be submitted for review to show clear concern for consumer safety, otherwise... no seal.
Anything else we could add would only make the end product better for the consumer.

There we go, this is what he was referring to.