Industry Concerns

[shanagan]

Let's try this. Without bashing, without calling anyone rude, without hopping up on a soapbox (well, you can, just kick it over to someone else when you're done)...

Where do you think the e-cigarette industry needs to improve, or what issues would you like to see addressed?

Please keep in mind, this discussion is about the good of the industry, and there's no need to get personal.

 

[AngusATAT]

Due to all of the PMs I've been getting, I will let this thread stay open. But I will warn everyone right off the bat, that if it devolves into name-calling, bashing/defending certain suppliers, or general posting that violates ECF forum rules, we will deal with each post and member individually. Offending posts will be deleted, and those members may be subject to disciplinary action.

If the discussion remains civil, there will not be an issue.

 

[shanagan]

Thanks, Angus, much appreciated!

 

[DC2]

Just wanted to make sure I got a post in before it was too late.


Having said that, I think it is pretty clear that makers of juice need to get more professional in their approach.
If they don't do it themselves, the FDA is going to do it for them, that is a guarantee.

 

[warbdan]

Thank you, Angus. All we want is a place where we can talk about diacetyl and other issues without being accused of witch-hunting, fear-mongering and the like.

 

[warbdan]

@DC2 Good one, I almost shot Mt. Dew outta my nose!

 

[SimpleSins]

I think the biggest risk in the vaping is in the juice. As a group we are entrusting one of the most critical organs (officially I guess a pair) we have to people who rarely have any education in any related field (be it chemistry or medical) and little or no motivation to provide a safe product. Frankly, with the FDA situation the way it is, I can imagine that there are a few vendors who see little reason to invest money in safety; make as much now while they can. Because there is no consumer watchdog, it would be fairly easy for an unscrupulous vendor to take advantage of the vaping public. So a consumer advocacy organization, not beholden to the vendors, would seem to be necessary to ensure validity of any safety claims, maybe providing a 'seal of approval' type thing.

So the two improvements I see as being good for the industry and the consumers, and two that would go hand in hand, would be a bonafide consumer advocate and safety standards.

 

[rogerdugans]

I think this could be a good thing.

Research into eliquid substances- the chemicals that go into juice that are known to have issues and the alternatives that little or nothing is known about.

Most of the substances used are, I believe, commonly used in other ways with varying issues- some of them severe.
Few of them have been studied as far as inhalation in a vapor. It would be nice to know more.

Labeling of ingredients and testing of them is important, and continuing this over time- a long time- is important for the industry to continue.

Other industries went for years doing things that were standard practice and now are considered extremely hazardous: I have been exposed to asbestos more times than I can count thanks to insulation in buildings and ships, as one example.
The ramifications of using asbestos weren't looked at for years, and now... well, ripouts are very expensive, complicated procedures.

 

[SimpleSins]

I agree Roger. I think that's why it's important to eliminate and/or avoid (at least for ourselves) those that are known to present a potential danger. Using your asbestos as an example, I don't think it went from being perfectly fine to banned overnight. I am sure there were warning signs along the way that were ignored until the dangers became to obvious to ignore. Especially since I would guess 98% of us already have lungs that are already compromised by our smoking history, it's almost madness to imagine knowingly chance the kind of irreversible damage that some of these chemicals have been shown to do, albeit for now at higher levels (a safe level of exposure has not yet been established).

I think that is also one of the reasons some of us argue so vehemently for disclosure. We cannot avoid it if we don't what it's in, and, much like vaping itself, as the safer alternative I should have the option to make it as safe as I possibly can.

 

[shanagan]

I know Scottitude mentioned earlier being concerned about the safety of the hardware too - I'm kind of blissfully ignorant of the potential dangers there for the moment, so that might be added to the list of stuff we kind of think about but generally don't put a lot of thought into discussing.

Actually, that might be my biggest concern right now. It has seemed to me that we ex-smokers tend to, I don't know, stick our head in the sand better than any group I know. Then on top of it we sell ourselves short - it almost sounds sometimes like we think potential hazards in vaping don't matter because we abused our lungs with smoking. And I think it's easy to take advantage of that, I don't know.. it isn't that we're gullible, if anything it's that we're fatalists, somehow.

 

[SimpleSins]

I know Scottitude mentioned earlier being concerned about the safety of the hardware too - I'm kind of blissfully ignorant of the potential dangers there for the moment, so that might be added to the list of stuff we kind of think about but generally don't put a lot of thought into discussing.

Actually, that might be my biggest concern right now. It has seemed to me that we ex-smokers tend to, I don't know, stick our head in the sand better than any group I know. Then on top of it we sell ourselves short - it almost sounds sometimes like we think potential hazards in vaping don't matter because we abused our lungs with smoking. And I think it's easy to take advantage of that, I don't know.. it isn't that we're gullible, if anything it's that we're fatalists, somehow.

In some ways, I think that is all the more reason we the consumer have to really stick up for our safety and well being. We've got this pre-existing condition built in. Go read the health board- no matter what pulmonary complaint, no matter whether it had ever been experienced before- the answer is always the same....you used to smoke so it is related to that. I let the Phillip-Morris sneak 4000 chemicals in on me for quite a number of years and, hopefully, smokers as a group are not too foolish to learn from past mistakes. I want to know what's in what I'm vaping. I want to make the choice as to whether I feel I want to risk what's left of my respiratory function to a vendor's shrug. If vendors really expect to be in this business for the long-term, they should start acting like a real business, and start with disclosure of what they know now is problematic and take care of things as the information becomes available.

 

[markarich159]

At the very least, every Chinese "kit" I've ever purchased(now the kit contains the battery, atomizer, carts, charger, etc...) have all had the European CE mark as well as the RoHS mark(which means it doesn't contain lead, mercury, cadmium, hexavalent chromium, Polybrominated Biphenyls and Polybrominated diphenyl ether). As long as these marks are legit, the CHINESE hardware(at least that I've purchased) seems to be made to at least some sufficient standard. But again, the only REAL way anyone is ever going to know is if the standard pre clinical/clinical safety/toxicity analysis testing is done. I'm more concerned , at this point with the "software" or eliquid; as that is what is actually being introduced into our pulmonary tissue in concentrated amounts at regular intervals, everyday, for long periods of time.

 

[enree]

In every sense of the word 'improvement', all items of the pv needs to be improved for higher quality. Battery, atty and even the usb bypass (they do not last long) but not the e-juice. It doesn't matter to me if the e-juice is banned but the maker should be more responsible. They must respect the FDA's regulations for the good of the society. They should state the contents of their products.

The next picture should be the users. Learn how to make your own juice. It is for their own safety - if they are safety conscious. Why must we be dependent on the producers of e-juice? It is just a recipe that has the ingredients of other readily available product. Some are in the malls even. Its like cooking your own dinner - some like to have theirs in a restaurant.

Just my opinion - no offense intended.

 

[shanagan]

None taken, enree. That's what this thread is FOR!

I would diy, but (oh, this is rich) I almost don't even want to research nic juice yet. When I say "we" have our heads in the sand.. I mean it. Seriously - you have some suppliers who say they make their own tobacco absolute, some who say they're using US pharma-grade nicotine, some who don't say where theirs is from, but want you to know it's NOT pesticide grade...

And more than that, I just want to go back to being a happy consumer. lol Pollyanna-much? I just want to buy a juice, say "wow, that's great!" and recommend it to someone else, without worrying what's in it.

 

[SimpleSins]

Enree, in many ways you are certainly correct. As a matter of fact, it was for those very reasons that I choose to mix the majority of my own juices, with only a handful that I trust enough for the other times. However, even as far as mixing one's own juice, there has to be some information made available. Some things are just not safe to vape, and the consumer needs to be aware that there is a difference between something being safe to swallow and safe to inhale, and the thin margin that can exist between safe levels and toxic levels, when, in fact, these are even known. You also have to have a vendor you trust for your supplies. I'm fortunate that I am use 0 nic; that means I don't have to get any supplies from an unregulated industry, and instead can buy from companies that I know plan on being around 10-20 years from now and therefore are making decisions based on long-term profitability instead of short term cash and grab.

 

[xg4bx]

knock off adding vitamins and stuff to the juice.
stop the fraudulent claims of "1 cartridge=25 cigarettes" or whatever
ditch the claims of "use them anywhere" because that's patently false depending on state law.

i'd like to see companies become bigger. if you're operating out of the same area, stop splitting the audience and merge. we need bigger companies who could maybe start moving into kiosks and the like to shut down the rip-off outfits. for better or worse we need a phillip morris of e-cigarettes.

we need a concerted effort between both users and suppliers to make the public aware of the rip-offs in the industry. maybe an enterprising soul who is knowledgeable about the net could put together a site.

suppliers: put together a reasonably priced bundle that can be recommended to new users. unfortunately getting into this scene usually involves putting together a check list of different sites. we need it to be as easy as going to buy a pack of cigs, i don't need to visit 1 store to get half a pack and the other half somewhere else.

better warranties. i would be fine with raising the prices somewhat to offset this. i think it's absurd to drop $20 on a battery only to be screwed when it burns out on day 9 of a 7 day warranty. other companies out there thrive while offering 1 year and even lifetime warranties. i've been through so many batteries that i will only shop at suppliers who offer good warranties. your prices may be cheaper upfront but that difference is cancelled out as soon as i have to replace a battery.

too many models and variety out there, i think it needs to be chopped down somewhat. i like having choices but it's reaching a level of absurdity. once something like an ego comes out, the previous model should be retired.

 

[progg]

I echo the safety concern in regards to inhalation.

How can the Chinese (if you trust the declarations) adhere to some standards but the US can't? Is it because of fear of Uncle ?

Several degrees of ingenuity are displayed by our vendors. Could they not use that ingenuity to set up certifiably independent sources to verify product content and facility standards?

 

[capecodjim]

Let's try this. Without bashing, without calling anyone rude, without hopping up on a soapbox (well, you can, just kick it over to someone else when you're done)...

Where do you think the e-cigarette industry needs to improve, or what issues would you like to see addressed?

Please keep in mind, this discussion is about the good of the industry, and there's no need to get personal.

First thing to do is to drop "e-cig" from the vocabulary and use personal vaporizer or anything that doesn't have "cig" in it. Cig has too many negative connotations associated with it and gives a bad first impression.

The free trial scams give the "industry" a bad name and should be exposed and consumers educated.

All the vendors I've dealt with (USA and China) have been exceptional except the "free trial" which I was lucky enough to return during the trial period after I saw info here.

 

[enree]

the consumer needs to be aware that there is a difference between something being safe to swallow and safe to inhale, and the thin margin that can exist between safe levels and toxic levels, when, in fact, these are even known.

Precisely.

 

[Traver]

Does any one know if any leaded solder is used in atomizers and cartomzers?