is retail juice a sustainable business?

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IDJoel

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Convenience is a big part of it. Do Swanson's frozen dinners sell because they are "good" or because they are easy?
When it's mainstream, that basic knowledge (pg/vg is pennies per ounce and commonly available) will become common knowledge (because collectively, people are smart enough to figure these things out). At that point, the pricing model that vape shops use is going to stop working because very few people will be willing to pay 20 times the price for their nic fix
I understand your point; and I agree that there will probably be some adjustment. But... have you ever priced out what the ingredients in a box of Betty Crocker cake mix costs if you were to make your own vs. what the local supermarket sells it for? Then look at how many variations they are offering? As a retailer; you know they are not giving up that much shelf space for something that doesn't sell. People will always pay for convenience.:D
 

zoiDman

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Convenience is a big part of it. Do Swanson's frozen dinners sell because they are "good" or because they are easy?

...

Nice Analogy.

:thumb:

BTW - Think if a Frozen Dinner was both Good and Convenient? That is how Many Retail e-liquids are.
 

Tee_Jay

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Nice Analogy.

:thumb:

BTW - Think if a Frozen Dinner was both Good and Convenient? That is how Many Retail e-liquids are.
It's a good analogy but it partially misses the point. You can take that retail liquid at 24 mg and cut it to get 8 times the amount of 3 mg. pretty well for free. On a scale of 1-10 for convenience, where DIY from scratch is 1 and a 20$ bottle of 3 mg juice is 10, then that 8 bottles for the price of 1 is like 9.5/10. It's much easier to pour a little bottle of retail juice into a bigger bottle vg than it is to bake a cake from betty crocker.
 
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jambi

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It's a good analogy but it partially misses the point. You can take that retail liquid at 24 mg and cut it to get 8 times the amount of 3 mg. pretty well for free. On a scale of 1-10 for convenience, where DIY from scratch is 1 and a 20$ bottle of 3 mg juice is 10, then that 8 bottles for the price of 1 is like 9.5/10. It's much easier to pour a little bottle of retail juice into a bigger bottle vg than it is to bake a cake from betty crocker.
But all those steps defeat the purpose of a frozen dinner (or ready to vape juice), which for both is basically "heat and consume".

Also, you're not accounting for the flavor dilution that will occur if you do what you said. Most people care a lot about flavor. Your points seem to all revolve around unflavored, or skirt the issue as above. Why?
 

zoiDman

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It's a good analogy but it partially misses the point. You can take that retail liquid at 24 mg and cut it to get 8 times the amount of 3 mg. pretty well for free. ...

Sure you can.

But if you do that to Flavored e-Liquids, they aint gonna have much Flavor.

And if you do that with Unflavored, your going to have to buy Both PG and VG, and then do some Math, and then do some Mixing. Something that Many people Don't want to do. Or in some cases, Don't even know is Possible.

And if you Did Know and Did Want to, you Probably wouldn't be Buying Unflavored from a B&M in the 1st Place. You would probably be buying Nicotine Base from an Online Retailer.

BTW - How Many people Buy Unflavored Anyway? I've been around the ECF for a Long Time. Seems like people who use Unflavored and or Hint of Flavor (like Myself) are in the Vast Minority.
 
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Tee_Jay

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But all those steps defeat the purpose of a frozen dinner (or ready to vape juice), which for both is basically "heat and consume".

Also, you're not accounting for the flavor dilution that will occur if you do what you said. Most people care a lot about flavor. Your points seem to all revolve around unflavored, or skirt the issue as above. Why?
Because nic addicts need nic. Flavor is secondary and juice is really expensive. I think most ex-smoker vapers would opt for the less flavorful juice (~8 for the price of 1 - we're talking about turning a recursive 160$ purchase into a 30$ purchase here) if they knew that all it is is mixing it up with some vg. The vast majority of vapers don't have that basic knowledge yet. When the ingredients of "juice" becomes common knowledge, big changes are going to be needed in the retail juice business model.

Why do you think vape shops don't sell big bottles of USP vg/pg like drug stores do? The answer isn't that people wouldn't buy it because it's too much trouble to cut bottles of 24 down to 3. It's the opposite. If they did sell USP vg/pg, most customers would do that and they would sell less juice. It's eventually going to happen anyway. Wait and see.
 

Friscoweather

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Because nic addicts need nic. Flavor is secondary and juice is really expensive. I think most ex-smoker vapers would opt for the less flavorful juice (~8 for the price of 1 - we're talking about turning a recursive 160$ purchase into a 30$ purchase here) if they knew that all it is is mixing it up with some vg. The vast majority of vapers don't have that basic knowledge yet. When the ingredients of "juice" becomes common knowledge, big changes are going to be needed in the retail juice business model.

Why do you think vape shops don't sell big bottles of USP vg/pg like drug stores do? The answer isn't that people wouldn't buy it because it's too much trouble to cut bottles of 24 down to 3. It's the opposite. If they did sell USP vg/pg, most customers would do that and they would sell less juice. It's eventually going to happen anyway. Wait and see.
I call BS on your take on what vapers like. Do you even vape? Above all, I want flavor. If the nic is too low, I'll just vape more.
If someone is going to DIY, they'll do research, come here, read about it, and buy what they need online.
I think your ideas of diluting juice to make money are way off base and would be an excellent way to go out of business.
Just my two cents

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wheelie

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I have DIY for three years. Have a few litres in freezer of nic. Found a juice company that sells premixed for 120ml for $19.99. Hardly worth my time to mix juice myself. Nice to try others cheap juice for a change. I find it the same as premium ejuice. I don't know how they will stay in business selling for that price when you factor in insurance hydro and all the bills a business incurs. CHEERS!
 
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Train2

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I think you are misreading what people want and what they know.
Vapers DO know that they could buy stronger juice and dilute it and still get nic. They don't want to.
Most of them know they could buy 100 mg nic in VG, for under $50 a liter, turn it into over 500 bottles (30mls) of liquid (6 mg example). Yes, that's well over 500 bottles, for $50. They don't WANT to.

They want intense flavor. Many of them want a variety of flavors. Some love the "hunt" - shopping for and trying new flavors.

It's not about "what's the cheapest way to get my nicotine fix".
Not for the VAST majority of vapers.

I agree that the commercial juice is doomed - but it's not because the consumer wouldn't keep buying it - it's because of the regulation. Without that, SOME people would trickle away to mix their own, as they have been all along...




(footnote: me? I have 10 years of nic in the freezer and have commercial juice just sitting there, cuz it's not as good as mine)



Because nic addicts need nic. Flavor is secondary and juice is really expensive. I think most ex-smoker vapers would opt for the less flavorful juice (~8 for the price of 1 - we're talking about turning a recursive 160$ purchase into a 30$ purchase here) if they knew that all it is is mixing it up with some vg. The vast majority of vapers don't have that basic knowledge yet. When the ingredients of "juice" becomes common knowledge, big changes are going to be needed in the retail juice business model.

Why do you think vape shops don't sell big bottles of USP vg/pg like drug stores do? The answer isn't that people wouldn't buy it because it's too much trouble to cut bottles of 24 down to 3. It's the opposite. If they did sell USP vg/pg, most customers would do that and they would sell less juice. It's eventually going to happen anyway. Wait and see.
 
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jambi

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Because nic addicts need nic. Flavor is secondary and juice is really expensive.

I take offence to that. Vaping is a lot more to me than dollars, cents, and drug addiction. Actually, flavor is everything. At this point the small amount of nic I use is there mostly for ritual significance. Not that it matters, but based on the expressions of my vaping friends, I have solid grounds to believe I'm in the vast majority. It's a shame your view is so limited, but ironically it probably gives you a much greater understanding of and compassion for popular/government opinion on vaping than I will ever have, or want to have.

Dollars, cents, pharmaceuticals...What has brought us to this pathetic state, where simple pleasure is such a punishable sin?
 
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Tee_Jay

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I take offence to that. Vaping is a lot more to me than dollars, cents, and drug addiction. Actually, flavor is everything. At this point the small amount of nic I use is there mostly for ritual significance. Not that it matters, but based on the expressions of my vaping friends, I have solid grounds to believe I'm in the vast majority. It's a shame your view is so limited, but ironically it probably gives you a much greater understanding of and compassion for popular/government opinion on vaping than I will ever have, or want to have.

Dollars, cents, pharmaceuticals...What has brought us to this pathetic state, where simple pleasure is such a punishable sin?
So the vast majority of vapers are not addicted to nic? I am. And that's the reason i vape. i thought other vapers need their nic too.
 

DaveP

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The market will shudder and shake, but I predict it will be here as long as government doesn't ban juice labs. There's also evidence that government will relax its stance on vaping and the pressure will subside, especially in the light of party change in the White House.

What to Expect for Vaping under a Trump Presidency?
 

Hoosier

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I may be addicted to nicotine, but the reason I keep vaping and not smoking is because of the flavor. It's all about the flavor to me. And I have known many vapers who could only make the switch because they found a flavor that worked for them.

Addiction is seldom as one sided as pop culture would indicate. Don't discount those that tried to quit smoking with the gum and patches that got their nicotine fix, but lacking the other aspects of the addiction, went back to smoking. If it was only about nicotine then gums and patches would work great.
 

VintageModMan

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So the vast majority of vapers are not addicted to nic? I am. And that's the reason i vape. i thought other vapers need their nic too.
That may be true. However you have to remember everyone is addicted a little different. I've been vaping for 4 years and about 2 years ago dropped the nic all together working my way down from 6 mg to 0. However I still vape for the hand to mouth and the flavor because it's one of the most enjoyable parts of vaping for me. I'm a
Foodie as well I love flavors and smells so vaping a bottle of key lime pie is way better for me health wise then chowing down a whole key lime pie if you get my drift.

To each their own. My wife never smoked but she uses it in a similar way when she gets bored she Vapes instead of snacking. I'm know quite a few people who do that same thing. Fat, thin, average. Not saying its Pepe with eating problems by any means just saying however I know more people who use it for flavor than nic. So it depends on who you talk to. I understand your argument whole heartedly but I think your stance is that of a minority and not the majority. A guy I work 2ith only buys from the big bottle Co. He gets 12 nice 120ml bottles and it's cheap in his eyes. He has no interest in DIY he also loves his nickname but would go with a different brand if he didn't like their flavors. So it's all very subjective to personal taste.

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jambi

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So the vast majority of vapers are not addicted to nic? I am. And that's the reason i vape. i thought other vapers need their nic too.
You may very well be correct, but you would have to ask "the vast majority of vapers". Until you do that, you are only drawing unfounded conclusions about a group of people so large and anonymous that they can only be referred to as "them". It is credulous to project your personal vaping situation onto such a vast group of people.

The "vast majority" of RL vapers I know, seem far more "addicted" to the equipment, how it performs, their skills in building and using it, and the flavor and clouds they can produce with it. To them, nicotine is actually considered a hindrance. Too much of it will interfere with what they seek, so they use none or very little.

This may be a very small segment of the vaping population, or a vast majority. Based on my own experience, I tend to believe that, for most people, vaping is an evolving dynamic. It starts with nicotine (which is not necessarily a synonym of addiction) coupled with a desire to quit smoking, and evolves, or at least has great potential to evolve, far from there. The "vast majority" of the RL vapers I know (all 12 of them, including myself :) ) began the transition by running into the vape shop with their EGO lanyard dangling to get their nic fix. That's like "stage 1", but I honestly believe that very few vapers get marooned there...though with nothing shiny in the showcases to attract attention thanks to regulatory strangulation, that stage 1 will become an increasingly difficult hurdle to clear. Sad, but that's the end result of a severely regulated, tax burdened wasteland...money and addiction. Sadder still, it's precisely what you are, unintentionally I think, promoting.

I think the socio/cultural element is paramount for us as well. Vaping is very much a bonding ritual, much as smoking is (was) a ritual for like-minded people to congregate around. The big difference is that, where cigarette smoking was a mere catalyst to social interactions not pertaining directly to it, vaping IS the topic around which the social interaction revolves. In other words, a hobby akin to RC Modeling, cycling, video gaming, take your pick. Interestingly, all of those hobbies have the same potential as vaping to become addictive, unhealthy, or downright dangerous, not to mention extremely costly.

To me, vaping is a very similar dynamic to what happens when enthusiasts congregate at a comic shop. If we simply assume these people are "addicted" to comic collecting (and many of them will freely admit so, since comic collecting does not have to shoulder the burden of social stigma that vaping as an extension of evil cigarette smoking/nicotine consumption must), why do they not simply rush in, grab what they "need", and leave?

Am I making any sense at all?

Are vape shops sustainable? I would go so far as to say they are essential to the culture of vaping. Measure it in dollars and cents if you will, but without them as gathering places, we are all lost in The Amazon ether with only our credit cards to guide us. Is that what you want?
 
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Tee_Jay

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If i'm 'promoting' anything, the you're right - it's unintentional. And maybe why posters here seem to take offence that i'd question the longevity of the retail business model used for pricing juice. I'm not suggesting vape shops can't survive at all. I'm just saying I think they're going to have to adapt.

Also, I've never met a vaper who said that nic isn't the reason they vape, or who has denied being addicted to nic. But as you're saying, nic isn't in the equation when it comes to the reasons the vast majority of vapers vape. That makes me part of a small minority, so I'm probably totally off-base. I guess (as often happens), i just need to watch and learn. :)
 

VintageModMan

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If i'm 'promoting' anything, the you're right - it's unintentional. And maybe why posters here seem to take offence that i'd question the longevity of the retail business model used for pricing juice. I'm not suggesting vape shops can't survive at all. I'm just saying I think they're going to have to adapt.

Also, I've never met a vaper who said that nic isn't the reason they vape, or who has denied being addicted to nic. But as you're saying, nic isn't in the equation when it comes to the reasons the vast majority of vapers vape. That makes me part of a small minority, so I'm probably totally off-base. I guess (as often happens), i just need to watch and learn. :)
Nothing wrong with that :) we all start somewhere. Glad to have the conversation

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